Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]


    Indeed, my take on this drama is genuine and yes, we all have to deal with our prejudices that lead us astray. We are all differently configured and process information accordingly.


    IH's strategy in this legal drama is not the most interesting. I find their holistic approach to Rossi and his technology shady and that intrigues me. "Weasel Tactics" by the way, refers to Dewey "Weasel" and his periodical venom on this forum.


    Sure IH are VC's and like most peers will try for example to put the ignorant inventor / entrepreneur through the wringer. However, they suck at doing that. It seems that their way of working has been lousy from the very start. And other, typical VC tasks are as poorly executed.


    Basically everything we see from them is amateuristic. I cannot get my head around what they are doing right. And they should be doing something right don't you think? They invest so much money and reputation in this whole thing that i cannot believe they are not achieving something we cannot see. I do not believe they shot themselves in the foot with Rossi.


    That is why i think that this battle is better won by Rossi. He is genuine. And yes, he has a universe of tricks up his sleeve and is creative with logic sometimes, but to me he is the good guy in this epic drama.


    That does not mean that in this legal case, on this forum or that my curiosity is all about him. I join the ranks of guys like IHFB that want to see if there is any truth in what he is stating. And i am very patient. I do not think we will not know at some point what exactly happened. The outcome of this will be binary. Rossi has something or he never had anything.


    Cheers,


    JB

    Quote

    Speaking of odd photos . . . Do you not find it a bit odd that Rossi talks about the mezzanine heat exchanger but he has no photos of it?

    Not really, it's hard to take photos of things that don't/didn't exist...


    Quote

    There are no photos! They are referenced but not yet uploaded.

    There's several photos in Smith's report, why not one more showing this crucial piece of the puzzle that most of his conclusions rely on?

    Alan Smith,


    Noted. You are the boss.


    However, i do not wish to insult anybody, nor do i think that Mr. Dewey Weaver feels insulted by my infantile remarks in the slightest. I merely try to add some colour to the characters in this oh so intriguing story. Do you know that weasels eat large numbers of rodents? What an admirable trait of this short-legged animal.


    Cheers,


    JF

    we_cat_global


    I like your answer.

    Yes we all have prejudices.

    I find that the important thing is to keep in mind that I may be wrong and to listen to counter opinions.

    The whole pro Rossi/anti Rossi label is quite destructive. I think that despite our differences most on this board think LENR is real and at some point hoped that Rossi would be the real deal.

    As more information has come out in 12 months I have gone from 50/50 to 99.9% sure he is not.

    He does not come over to me as trustworthy or an engineering genius.

    But indeed Rossi could prove me wrong and produce his miracle tomorrow. I would be extremely surprised but delighted and happily eat crow.


    Rossi is the core, but the IH angle, while secondary, is also interesting in its own right.

    But yes I agree this whole thing has made IH look bad and their “due diligence” process looks like a bunch of bumbling amateurs.

    Their strategy for the court case they have been dragged into is not nice and it’s not pretty but it may be effective, they have to try to win.


    I find little point arguing against conspiracy theories. Knock down one conspiracy theory and ten more pop up to replace it. It amazes me that some think A is more likely than B.

    A – IH are a shell company set up as a black ops by CIA and shady military/industrial complex parties to deal with genius inventor who created a world transforming marvel in his garage.

    B – Rossi is a faker and agreed to take money off some guys with more money than sense.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    Okay, so you imagine he did not intend to file a lawsuit. So he dismantled the heat exchanger. And then a month later, it suddenly occurred to him that he needed to file a lawsuit. Too late! He already destroyed the evidence that would be needed to win the lawsuit. To save a few thousand dollars, he re-used the pipes, but by doing so he threw away the opportunity to win $267 million in the lawsuit.


    Do you really believe Rossi is so stupid that he would throw away a vast sum of money just to re-use some pipes? Do you believe it did not even occur to him to take some photos of the equipment? It just slipped his mind, even though in his deposition, he admits that without this heat exchanger his claims could not be true.


    No, Jed, I don't think he's that stupid, and I don't think it suddenly occurred to him to file a lawsuit. And if you read the rest of my post, which I assume you did, then you should know that. Same with my earlier post on this subject. So why are you taking my words out of context and twisting them around to try to portray me as believing something I don't? This is now the second time you've engaged in this dishonest debating tactic. I honestly don't understand why, because you and I agree on this point. And yet your tone is that of a rabid lapdog pit bull.


    In any case, your bluster is moot, since the magistrate rejected IH's spoliation motion--unless the judge overrules him. It will be interesting to read the court transcript of that hearing to learn why the magistrate denied their claim.


    So yet again something that you have claimed is obvious and unquestionable, even to the point of contemptuously dismissing someone who actually agrees with you, turns out to have been far more nuanced and less clear-cut than you believe. Your claim has fallen. How many times do you think that can happen before your reputation falls with it?

    Quote from we_cat_global

    Sure IH are VC's and like most peers will try for example to put the ignorant inventor / entrepreneur through the wringer. However, they suck at doing that. It seems that their way of working has been lousy from the very start. And other, typical VC tasks are as poorly executed.


    Basically everything we see from them is amateuristic. I cannot get my head around what they are doing right. And they should be doing something right don't you think?

    That's the puzzle that led me speculate that IH baited Rossi on purpose, whether to discredit LENR in general or just discredit Rossi while stealing his IP. Again, it's not what I believe; just speculation. It parsimoniously explains IH's keystone cops routine, along with their reluctance to let go of their control over his IP. But at this point I don't really know what to believe, other than that neither IH nor Rossi can be trusted.



    ... finally You see, that Your comments are infantile. Good way to work on Your weaknesses starts with their acceptance first.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    No, in his deposition, he definitely said he knows the pipe was not full. He is sure of that. (He could be wrong of course, but he thinks he knows.)


    @JED: I, in your situation, would definitely fall quiet. If you don't know how to read court documents, then repeating Murray FUD will definitely kill reputation...


    Murray prepared an IH/Layer internal FUD report that never was presented to the court: A. is Murray:

    Code
    MR. ANNESSER:· Well, if you plan on
·introducing a report prepared by him without having
·provided it to us before his deposition with plenty
·of time, then we're going to have other issues
·before the court.

    Case 1:16-cv-21199-CMA

    Document 215-3

    Entered on FLSD Docket 03/23/2017 423

    Page 228 of

    ·BY MR. ANNESSER: · · · Q.· · Sir, sitting here today you don't know what ·the slope was?

    · · · A. I do not



    …

    Q.· · The flow meter have been lower than -- · · ·

    A.· · Yeah. · · ·

    Q.· · -- the pipe entrance? · · ·

    A.· · Possibly, yeah. · · ·

    Q.· · Okay.· But you don't know one way or another? ·You're speculating? · · ·

    A.· · Yeah, just working from memory, yes.· I don't ·know.

    Indeed, my take on this drama is genuine and yes, we all have to deal with our prejudices that lead us astray. We are all differently configured and process information accordingly.

    Genuine I accept: but that does not prevent your take from being unjust, and against the evidence. Feelings often lead us astray when processing things. If your yardstick of arguments being correct is the arguer being genuine you will believe everything, because there can be genuine and passionate arguments for almost every view under the sun.


    IH's strategy in this legal drama is not the most interesting. I find their holistic approach to Rossi and his technology shady and that intrigues me.

    You'd better elucidate this. What do you mean? Rossi has throughout been very controlling so I doubt very much IH could have negotiated any agreement with Rossi other than they did. What should they have done different to be less shady? And how do you know Rossi would have gone along with it?


    "Weasel Tactics" by the way, refers to Dewey "Weasel" and his periodical venom on this forum.

    I'll give you Dewey was a rough customer on this forum, and scathing in his attacks on those he believes to be peddling lies. I don't see that has anything significant to do with IH business - it is just one tiny internet forum. And pretty clear that Dewey's activity here was his own business - he feels very strongly that his friends are being trashed unjustly.


    Sure IH are VC's and like most peers will try for example to put the ignorant inventor / entrepreneur through the wringer. However, they suck at doing that. It seems that their way of working has been lousy from the very start. And other, typical VC tasks are as poorly executed.

    I don't think I agree entirely. Without VCs investors would not get funding. It is in the VCs interests that the investors product succeeds. Maybe you reckon VCs take too high a stake - but that is because most companies they invest in never make any return. With IH, you seem to be saying that they have been too nice to Rossi. You must admit Rossi is a very special case and has been good in the past at extracting money from people - Petroldragon investors, US Defense, etc. It seems IH have a mission to see whether they can get LENR to be real and I think they are approaching this in a slightly idealistic fashion, with dreams of saving the world. Listen to Darden's speech. Otherwise - I know they look with hindsight to have been stupid over the contract with Rossi (and I would never have been so naive) but if you read the complete (not extracted) depositions from Darden and Vaughn you can understand where they are coming from.


    Basically everything we see from them is amateuristic. I cannot get my head around what they are doing right. And they should be doing something right don't you think? They invest so much money and reputation in this whole thing that i cannot believe they are not achieving something we cannot see. I do not believe they shot themselves in the foot with Rossi.


    So I think what you are saying is that because they appear amateurs we should reckon this is all pretence and they have some dark secret plan? That is awful complex. Anyway, I think they have been amateurs at dealing with the validation of technology - which is what got them into this hole with Rossi in the first place. A lot of VCs are bad at that, because science competence and business competence are different things.


    That is why I think that this battle is better won by Rossi. He is genuine. And yes, he has a universe of tricks up his sleeve and is creative with logic sometimes, but to me he is the good guy in this epic drama.

    I have no idea what you mean by this. Rossi is only genuine in that he passionately wants to cheat investors and anyone else, for his own financial gain. He probably does not believe he is cheating anyone - which is very twisted. For example, the $100M in advance contract is unheard of. No normal VC would touch it because it does not align the inventors interests with the commercialisation. The whole point of a VC is you bring a product to market - and for that you need the technical guy to be working with the business guys and rewarded progressively as the product moves towards viability. The Rossi contract is totally disastrous in that respect and was clearly Rossi.


    That does not mean that in this legal case, on this forum or that my curiosity is all about him. I join the ranks of guys like IHFB that want to see if there is any truth in what he is stating. And i am very patient. I do not think we will not know at some point what exactly happened. The outcome of this will be binary. Rossi has something or he never had anything.

    The legal case here is not directly about whether Rossi has something, so it is quite possible that it will be settled without any closure on that matter beyond what the documents now released provide. And I don't see how Rossi having something can be binary. If you believe Ni-H LENR to be real (a few here do) then the facts also fit Rossi having some type of effect which through the various mis-measurement issues we know about he has turned into a strong commercial-level apparent effect. So that is different from Rossi has nothing or Rossi has what he claims (how anyone can believe that I don't know).


    Wyttenbach


    The shouting does not help assess these things. You are quite right, the IH experts can all be criticised. They are tech guys, and not about smooth instant answers to all questions. They are half guessing because Rossi has removed so much of the system, and all the data. Anyway for all I know the error was Rossi mis-reporting the flowmeter readings! who can tell?


    But.... Rossi does not have any credible experts. Wong's report is based solely on rossisays which no-one believes. And Wong's estimate, when calculated accurately, is provably one OOM away from what is needed to dissipate 1MW. There is no other way, as Rossi himself admitted, to dissispate 1MW. So the expert evidence on both sides is pretty flaky, but Wong's is provably not relevant, Smith and Murray have points that could well be correct.


    We know that the Penon report figures are very wrong from heat dissipation issues. If you don't agree with Murray or Smith - that is fine. In that case you tell us how you think Penon's data got to be so very wrong! It is not a difficult job, there are lots of possible ways! But any way you choose can be criticised, because it is guessing.


    For the legal case IH needs to show the test is unreliable - if they need that - they have a strong case that it never was a GPT as you know but whether that will fly I cannot be sure.


    For us, we can never prove Rossi's devices don't work. That has never been possible, because Rossi has never allowed a proper tests. The nearest was Lugano where for all its problems we can put +/- 30% limits on the non-working. But 30% excess? Sure. Rossi would never do accurate tests from which we could say something more definite about his device not working. Many inventors with vapourware are equally secretive, and equally don't allow their stuff to be properly tested.


    Rossi's genius is in mobilising a few people to be passionate supporters when he has never ever shown anything working. That is quite a performance. And keeping his band of supporters in this situation where so many of his deceits are exposed is an even greater magnificence.

    the cats dead

    No it isn't

    Yes it is, its frozen

    No it isn't there's a magic pipe making it breathe

    Where?

    Its in the roof

    No it isn't

    Yes it is there's a rated pump going to its rectum

    No there isn't

    Yes there is and there's windows been removed so you can't see it breathing.

    No there aren't. Etc etc etc.



    ...definitely the perfect summary of over 216 pages.

    I have frequently been challenged to substantiate my claim that Darden et al. basically defrauded investors by using the 1MW test to raise $50 million from Woodford (plus some kind of joint research endeavor with the Chinese plus who knows what else). I was always too lazy to go back through and try to make my case again. But here is one of the key passages. It's from 241-01 Exhibit A, Darden's Deposition Excerpts. We see clearly that IH knew from the beginning that the test was jeopardized, and yet we also know that they still brought investors to tour the plant:


    "·1 After the plant got installed in Florida and we saw

    ·2 that Rossi had removed all of the instrumentation and

    ·3 the monitoring access that we had, and as we realized

    ·4 that he was restricting access to it so it was not

    ·5 going to be a fully transparent bona fide test, at that

    ·6 point we became very suspicious.

    ·7· · · · · · ·We realized that it was -- something bad

    ·8 was going on down there.· And we don't want to get

    ·9 thrown in jail for participating in some kind of fraud

    10 so we said we don't want to receive payment from them."


    (Yeah, they only wanted to receive payment from Woodford.)


    So two key questions:


    1) Did IH inform Woodford, the Chinese and other potential investors that Rossi had removed the instrumentation and monitoring access, that he was restricting access to it, and that they felt it was not a bona fide test?


    2) Did IH inform its investors that they were so suspicious of the test being fraudulent that they declined to collect payment for the power they were generating?


    I think the smart money is on "no."

    Quote from joshg

    If IH is out to destroy or delay LENR, as some have speculated, then nothing would discredit LENR more than showing Rossi is a scam artist.


    To the contrary. If Rossi is a scam artist, or is kind of a scam artist, better that this be made plain and clear and that his work bears little to no connection to a number of honest researchers (Mizuno, McKubre, Storms, Miles, etc.) working in the field who over decades have sacrificed more prosperous careers for pursuing their interest in a controversial topic.


    The field of LENR predated and is much bigger than Rossi and his attempted replicators, although Rossi's supporters are prone to collapse the two things into one.

    Quote from we_cat_global

    The outcome of this will be binary. Rossi has something or he never had anything.


    I wish this were so. But we know from Roswell, New Mexico, and the Yeti, and Papp, that any topic for which information is incomplete can support not only speculation but avowed supporters for decades to come. Unfortunately I think the likelihood of this lawsuit definitively sorting out the technical questions is very small at this point, and we will be left with probabilities (extremely pessimistic ones, in my view) and impressions. And if this affair has taught me anything it is that different observers will take what information is available and draw wildly different conclusions.

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