Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Quote from Nigel Appleton

If - IF - there was a rust stain in the flowmeter indicating that it was not full of water, then (I hope!) it will have been photographed;

I cannot comment directly but . . . Use your common sense. This is a lawsuit with $267 million at stake. I.H. has one of the best law firms in the country. As you see from the CVs of Murray and Smith, they are consummate experts, probably among the top 100 people in the world for this task. As Smith remarked, he and two attorneys visited the site. He said: "The only access to the mezzanine is a rickety wooden stairs, which the attorneys made this author climb first (load test) before they would use it."

Given these facts, how likely is it that they do not have complete photographic evidence and other types of evidence to back up their claims?

Note also that Rossi has not uploaded any evidence of any kind to contradict their claims. No photos, no testimony, no schematics. Nothing. For example, if he had a heat exchanger in the mezzanine, why is it the pipes leading to it do not show up in photos? And why didn't he take some photos of it before destroying it for no reason and hiding the pipes?

@Jed,

As far as I'm aware, we haven't seen the CV for Murray. That was one of several reasons why Rossi's legal team attempted to block Murray's testimony from trial.

Quote from JedRothwell

For example, if he had a heat exchanger in the mezzanine, why is it the pipes leading to it do not show up in photos?

If IH has so many great photos, why is it that Smith provided a screen image grab from a video that shows the door to the mezzanine, the lower portion of which is obstructed by the wall separating the JMP side from the Leonardo side. Doesn't it make you wonder what was in the lower portion of the door leading to the mezzanine?

Quote from IH Fanboy

But Murray said he didn't know where it was specifically located, i.e., whether it was above or below the inlet.

The inlet to the pretend customer site? That wouldn't matter. The gravity return starts after the radiator.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Don't you think that would be important to know when running his simulations?

There were tests, not simulations, but as he said there was also physical evidence such as corrosion. (He simulated the effect of heat in the warehouse. Perhaps you are confusing that with the flow meter tests.)

You are apparently confused by Murray's deposition. It is long. It is confusing because the lawyer questioning him knows nothing about science or technology, as he himself said. So he kept asking absurd and irrelevant questions, and confusing the issue. Plus, you cannot understand because you are blinded by wishful thinking. You never believe something that contradicts your beliefs, even when Rossi tells it to you. The key points that Murray and Smith made go in one ear and come out the other.

People who are not deluded can see that Murray and others plainly said they have proof the flow meter was installed in a half-empty pipe, and there were many other problems with it. There is not the slightest chance it was correct. As Smith pointed out, Rossi did not leave that to chance, in any case. He installed the hidden pump, giving him another way to cheat, in case his flow meter fraud was not sufficient.

Quote from JedRothwell

The inlet to the pretend customer site?

No, the inlet to the reservoir.

And Smith's supposed mode of fraud (dual circuit flow) is incompatible with Murray's (partially filled pipe). Smith assumed the pipe was full, and had to in order to explain his dual circuit flow conjecture. Don't you wonder why Smith considered the pipe to be full?

Quote from IH Fanboy

If IH has so many great photos, why is it that Smith provided a screen image grab from a video that shows the door to the mezzanine,

I don't know why but let me guess it is because that screen image came from Rossi. Rossi has many photos proving that he himself is a liar, such as his photos that show no pipes going from the pretend customer site up to the mezzanine. I guess Smith prefers to hang Rossi by his own petard.

Rossi and Penon's own ERV report does not mention the mezzanine heat exchanger. Since the exchanger is a vital part of the test, without which the test is irrefutably impossible garbage, you would think they would include it. But they didn't. Rossi hoisted himself by his own petard there. Absence of evidence is definitive in this case. If the exchanger existed, he could have avoided a lawsuit and gotten $89 million just by showing it to the people from I.H., but he didn't. You will come up with some ridiculous excuse for this, but most people who can earn $89 million in a few minutes by showing people ordinary equipment in a mezzanine will do so.

In any case there are many other photos and other evidence proving there was no heat exchanger, including the Google photos. The only people who dispute that are you, because you are deluded, and a gullible child who believe you and probably believes in Santa Claus too. Children are not good at judging things such as photos.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I've felt for some time that this is your strongest contention. We'll have to wait and see what turns up at trial. All it takes is one photo of the innards of the heat exchanger showing several finned radiators at the end of the piping (consistent with methods used by Rossi in the past), and your foundational premise comes crumbling down. I have no idea whether such a photo exists.

But what I do know: we have more evidence that the heat exchanger was in the mezzanine than we have for a dual-circuit flow (Smith's word).

IHFB - I've never given an opinion about whether of not the heat exchanger is in the mezzazine except that it is invisible and appears imaginary.

My point about the power being impossible is completely independent of that. Using Rossi's own design as RossiSays indicated to Wong, the max power dissipated from it is just over 100kW.

Finned radiators:

(a) are a figment of your imagination

(b) would mean Rossi was lying when he described his heat exchanger on oath.

(c) woould not do it unless you had a very high fin density, then we are back to issues about the power needed to drive air through dense fins being too high. But, in any case a high fin density could not possibly have been manually welded onto the pipe by Rossi in one day, as he claims.

Now I know Rossi lying is not a big deal, but this would be him lying in a way which he would realise made his story weaker. Why would that be?

So even allowing Rossi's fabrications invisible heat exchangers - the Penon figures don't work, you have no argument.

Your comment on this issue on this site - while welcome simply because arguments are always better when tested, is so weird I cannot see even you believing it.

Quote from IH Fanboy

No, the inlet to the reservoir.

The flow meter was above that, and there was no U pipe. Rossi tried to hide that fact by tearing out the plumbing, but there are photos, eye witness accounts and physical evidence such as the corrosion that prove it is true. Murray knows that. Perhaps his deposition confused you, because the lawyer kept asking him in ways that confused the issue. He might have slipped up a little when the question was phrased the right way and repeated for the tenth time. The lawyer was hoping to elicit a confused answer the lawyer can point to. You also hope for that. It is a forlorn hope.

Quote from JedRothwell

Rossi and Penon's own ERV report does not mention the mezzanine heat exchanger.

It was Penon's report, and he had no access to the JMP side or the mezzanine, and didn't need it to determine COP.

Given these facts, how likely is it that they do not have complete photographic evidence and other types of evidence to back up their claims?

Difficult to have photographic evidence of a non-existent heat exchanger - IH were not allowed in the mezzazine when Rossi claimed it was there. Luckily google camera show reflections on glass in some photos. That is enough because a 1MW heat exchanger is needed all the time the plant is on, and is also not the sort of thing you install by hand whenever you need it.

Quote from JedRothwell

The flow meter was above that, and there was no U pipe. Rossi tried to hide that fact by tearing out the plumbing, but there are photos, eye witness accounts and physical evidence such as the corrosion that prove it is true. Murray knows that. Perhaps his deposition confused you, because the lawyer kept asking him in ways that confused the issue. He might have slipped up a little when the question was phrased the right way and repeated for the tenth time. The lawyer was hoping to elicit a confused answer the lawyer can point to. You also hope for that. It is a forlorn hope.

You are so certain, but Murray said he didn't know--the very expert that was supposed to know perhaps the most important question of all about the flow meter. And there were no lawyer tricks at play. Here is the interchange:

1· · · · Q.· · Could it have been lower?

·2· · · · A.· · Could the?

·3· · · · Q.· · The flow meter have been lower than --

·4· · · · A.· · Yeah.

·5· · · · Q.· · -- the pipe entrance?

·6· · · · A.· · Possibly, yeah.

·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.· But you don't know one way or another?

·8· ·You're speculating?

·9· · · · A.· · Yeah, just working from memory, yes.· I don't

10· ·know.

11· · · · Q.· · Okay.

Quote from THHuxleynew

(b) would mean Rossi was lying when he described his heat exchanger on oath.

I readily admit, the suggestion of finned radiators is my conjecture (although it is consistent with how Rossi dissipated heat and condensed steam in the past).

Nobody ever asked Rossi under oath whether finned radiators were used. In a deposition, if you are not asked about something, it usually doesn't come out.

Quote from IH Fanboy

If IH has so many great photos, why is it that Smith provided a screen image grab from a video that shows the door to the mezzanine, the lower portion of which is obstructed by the wall separating the JMP side from the Leonardo side. Doesn't it make you wonder what was in the lower portion of the door leading to the mezzanine?

See, this is where you risk ending up in knucklehead territory.

The screen image you are referring to was from a video taken by Penon when the E-Cat was 'operational'. As you know, IH was not allowed by Rossi to access the super-secret (now known to be fake) "customer's" side (which Rossi admits was actually also all Rossi's), and so of course they don't have pictures from then. They have all sorts of photos from immediately after the 'test' in February - one of those pictures was included by Smith and clearly shows the entire entryway to the Mezzanine, and that there are no pipes of any kind.

Do you really believe that 1) Smith (and IH) should have photos from when the plant was supposed to be operating even though Rossi did not give them access to that side, and 2) that Rossi disassembled the entire heat exchanger immediately (in less than a day) after 'completeing' the 'test'?

If so, I think that it is reasonable for me and others to suspect that on this issue, you have entered knucklehead territory. Turn back, before it's too late!

@sig

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Rossi should have never dismantled the piping after the test. Dumb move. But I was just challenging Jed a little because he was saying that IH has all of these amazing photos of everything proving their case--but what do we get in Smith's report? An image grab from a video with an obstructed view of the door. And we are supposed to consider this as proof there was no heat exchanger?

Quote from IH Fanboy

I readily admit, the suggestion of finned radiators is my conjecture (although it is consistent with how Rossi dissipated heat and condensed steam in the past).

Nobody ever asked Rossi under oath whether finned radiators were used. In a deposition, if you are not asked about something, it usually doesn't come out.

Rossi briefed his own expert - who got it wrong. If fins mattered, Rossi would have told Wong about them. Unless he does not want $89M.

@THH,

It is strange that Wong wouldn't know about specifics of the heat exchanger--I'll grant you that.

I find Wong's testimony overall as strange. A rough estimate based on a (brief?) conversation with Rossi about how much piping he had. Not impressive. But there is a possibility that Rossi and team are holding out for the trial. My guess is that both sides have dry powder that hasn't been used yet (but that each side is aware of given that the discovery phase has ended).

Wong's testimony is not the only strange testimony. Darden's is strange. Vaughn's is too. Murray's is strange that he didn't know specifically where the flow meter was located. I don't even understand how he could construct his own pipes to do his simulations without knowing the most important part: where was the flow meter in relation to the pipe inlet.

Quote from IH Fanboy

And we are supposed to consider this as proof there was no heat exchanger?

Well, I think there is a lot of evidence that there was no heat exchanger - the pictures taken within a day of 'test completion' are pretty convincing. But I admit that so far we don't seem to have a picture of the mezzanine from when the E-Cat was 'operational' showing no pipes at the base of the door (only just above the base).

Since Rossi's 'heat exchanger' idea emerged after Bass' deposition, there are no questions asked of Bass about the alleged mezzanine heat exchanger. You can bet that at trial, Bass will be asked if he has any knowledge about it.

If Rossi is reading here: Your phones and emails are currently wiretapped by the FBI, and any pre-trial collusion can and will be used against you in Federal Court.

@sig,

Yes, it is strange that Bass wasn't asked. Or maybe he was (since we only have access to excerpts of depositions), and one side is holding out for trial with that information.

Quote from IH Fanboy

It was Penon's report, and he had no access to the JMP side or the mezzanine, and didn't need it to determine COP.

Don't be silly. First, there is no way to determine the COP with the instruments in this test. Rossi made sure of that.

Second, this was Rossi's report. Penon is Rossi's paid lapdog, and an idiot. The data was invented by Rossi and e-mailed to Penon.

Furthermore without access to the mezzanine and proof that the heat exchanger is real, the whole report is garbage. It is impossible. If the report data were true, everyone would be dead without a heat exchanger, so for the report to have any credibility, the heat exchanger has to be shown in the schematic and described in the report.

It wasn't in the report because it did not exist. Rossi is so technically inept, he thought people would overlook the heat dissipation problem. He realized he had to come up with with something quickly, so he made up this story and lied during his deposition. I guess he figured that claiming he has a super-endothermic process is so ridiculous even you people on Planet Rossi would not believe it. I think he underestimated how gullible you are. You believe in invisible, impossible heat exchangers, so maybe you would believe in super-endothermic materials.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Given these facts, how likely is it that they do not have complete photographic evidence and other types of evidence to back up their claims?

Difficult to have photographic evidence of a non-existent heat exchanger

That's true! Although they do have photos of the topless fake customer site, and there are no pipes going up out of it. That's a definitive absence of evidence.

But anyway, I was referring to photographic evidence of the corrosion in the flow meter. I myself cannot confirm they have that, but given the stakes of $267 million and the fact that these are among the best and highest paid attorneys in the world, I think it is safe to assume they do.