Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Quote from Eric Walker

In the case of the surgeon with the knife, there is the intention of healing the patient, the patient's consent that was obtained in advance and the many successful examples in history that justify the use of the scalpel.

Sorry , while I agree with you, I was bit unclear with my example of surgeon. In our culture we have some saying describing the phenomenon that I meant. For example roughly translated 'Give kid a hammer and he sees nails everywhere' I meant that learning and researching about psychiatric disorders tempts to lead seeing them in more often in similar looking cases even that would not be the case when analyzed more carefully.

So that is different thing than the example 'Send person to with low esteem to plastic surgeon and she/(he?) comes back with rubber boobs, but send her to psychotherapist and she comes back with peace in her mind'.

PS. I Don't want to argue about your point since off topic, but we have also many accepted studies showing that part of knee and hip surgical operations have been either unnecessary or not effective. Or you may search youtube for example topic like 'Si joint manipulation' and wonder why doctors merely orders billions worth of pain killers or someone talks you over to 'consent' on weekly physiotherapist treatment instead of, often one time, SI joint manipulation. Worth wondering. No answer is not mostly that doctors would be in greedy companion with enterprises, but maybe even more saddening. They simply don't know enough. Thank lord AI is coming to make them even better professionals. I would have other even more sad examples, but not topic of this thread.

Quote from joshg

Yes, I think that's right. I didn't mean to suggest that he is a great engineer in the proper sense (I have no expertise to judge). Only that he has a canny ability to figure out how to cheat the tests (or, for people who believe him, he has a canny way to design tests with loopholes). I called that "a particular set of engineering skills," but you could just as well call them technical skills.

I agree. It's almost like he has honed a unique set of 'anti-engineering' skills. Which I admit does kind of offend my engineering sensibilities.

Every engineer has experienced anguish and frustration because in the process of 'debugging' a problem, they realize that they were trying to solve the wrong problem or a problem that didn't exist because they made wrong assumptions or reached incorrect conclusions regarding how a device worked.

Much of engineering experience is learning how to not delude yourself (which happens a lot when working with complex systems), and to learn how to do that quickly, so you don't waste your time trying to fix things according to a wrong conceptual model in your head.

That Rossi intentionally deceives, uses methods and devices in ways that are designed to create confusion and error rather than precision, clarity and design elegance is particularly repulsive from an engineering standpoint.

So thanks for providing an opportunity for me to rant!

Quote from sigmoidal

I agree. It's almost like he has honed a unique set of 'anti-engineering' skills. Which I admit does kind of offend my engineering sensibilities.

Every engineer has experienced anguish and frustration because in the process of 'debugging' a problem, they realize that they were trying to solve the wrong problem or a problem that didn't exist because they made wrong assumptions or reached incorrect conclusions regarding how a device worked.

Much of engineering experience is learning how to not delude yourself (which happens a lot when working with complex systems), and to learn how to do that quickly, so you don't waste your time trying to fix things according to a wrong conceptual model in your head.

That Rossi intentionally deceives, uses methods and devices in ways that are designed to create confusion and error rather than precision, clarity and design elegance is particularly repulsive from an engineering standpoint.

So thanks for providing an opportunity for me to rant!

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Yes, absolutely. It is why I personally detest Rossi's behaviour so strongly - but that is down to my feelings, not him.

As for intention - it is obviously not coincidence, but could come from an intense desire to have working tests and complete indifference with whether they are accurate or not. That may seem the same as intentionally spoofing, but Rossi would rationalise this in his own mind without the idea that he is spoofing anything. He habitually twists things more than that in the Court document record. That ability to treat errors as irrelevant even when they are blindingly obvious is what makes Rossi an anti-engineer - and makes him totally incompetent as an experimental physicist. It does not matter whether it comes from deliberate deception or indifference, the effect is the same.

But he is highly competent in some other areas!

Quote from THHuxleynew

As for intention - it is obviously not coincidence, but could come from an intense desire to have working tests and complete indifference with whether they are accurate or not. That may seem the same as intentionally spoofing, but Rossi would rationalise this in his own mind without the idea that he is spoofing anything.

You are being charitable in holding out the possibility that Rossi might not be 'intentionally spoofing', at least in his own mind.

I had gone back and forth on that idea for awhile. But I think the evidence is clear and convincing that Rossi 'cunningly' deceives. The first clear cut undeniable (to me) evidence of that was the 100% Ni62 ash. It takes a 'special' kind of person with 'special' kind of thinking to actually plant something and then have noted experts go off and analyze it with mass spec. and electron micrographs. Think about how much wasted resources, effort and needless confusion that act alone created (which continues to this day). For example, Cook spent a lot of time writing a useless and confusing-to-the-field manuscript because of Rossi's salted ash (it was different ash, but still salted).

There's a litany of other examples, but I repeat myself.

As I mentioned in the previous post: the most satisfying aspect of Rossi filing suit against IH is that it backfired in a way to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Rossi habitually goes to extreme measures to intentionally deceive (because he was forced to admit it, and the evidence submitted makes that clear).

This conclusion does not depend on any ultimate court verdict.

Assuming this fascinating business comes to trial, I do hope that counsel for IH ensure that the idea that Rossi could could at any time have openly demonstrated a working eCat is firmly in the mind of the jury. So simple a solution, even the least technically minded and bored juror will grasp it and hang on to it.

AR could easily have saved a lot of money and time, gained fame and fortune, and have been justified in raising a middle finger to all skeptics, along with emitting a loud raspberry.

Quote from Nigel Appleton

Assuming this fascinating business comes to trial, I do hope that counsel for IH ensure that the idea that Rossi could could at any time have openly demonstrated a working eCat is firmly in the mind of the jury. So simple a solution, even the least technically minded and bored juror will grasp it and hang on to it.

@NA: This assumption is totally wrong: AR sold (already 2013) his IP to IH. Only IH can decide whether such a test can be made or not.

IH certainly will not allow any further (complete independent) tests until the trial is over.

I personally would ask IH to allow for such a test with the big frankies. But then they would need to overrule the military partners...

Quote from Wyttenbach

@NA: This assumption is totally wrong: AR sold (already 2013) his IP to IH. Only IH can decide whether such a test can be made or not.

IH certainly will not allow any further (complete independent) tests until the trial is over.

I personally would ask IH to allow for such a test with the big frankies. But then they would need to overrule the military partners...

Sorry, but you're wrong. Rossi can do anything he likes with the IP, so long as he doesn't SELL items made using it in the territories already ceded to IH.

You or I could do it, so long as we didn't profit from it or otherwise damage IH's business by giving away free eCats

(Notwithstanding the undoubted fact that the IP is worthless anyway)

Quote from guest111

the biggest mystery of all in this "drama"---WHY supposedly experienced investors would fork over $10M with no due-diligence (I'd want my money back if I were an "investor"), notwithstanding anyone's hair on the back of their neck should stand up to someone hawking the greatest invention of the century with a bundle of crude pipe, hidden in insulation and a couple of thermocouples and heaters.

I do not think I.H. was convinced by Rossi's crude experiments. My understanding is that they were mainly convinced by Levi's experiments. These were less crude. More professional. The first one was impressive. I still think it might have shown real excess heat. The IR camera readings were backed up by a thermocouple. The second set of experiments at Lugano were a big step backward. They were worse. I find this baffling. Usually, when a group of scientists do an experiment the second time, they do a better job.

The initial evaluations of Lugano were lukewarm. Many people later decided there were significant problems with it. I do not know the timeline or the details, but I believe I.H. paid Rossi mainly because Lugano was positive. There may have been another test. I have not read the lawsuit documents about this, and I have not discussed it with I.H.

Quote from Wyttenbach

IH certainly will not allow any further (complete independent) tests until the trial is over.

As Nigel Appleton has pointed out, Rossi is free to commission completely independent tests any time he wants. Nothing prevents that. His agreement with I.H. only covers commercial sales.

If the machine worked as claimed, it would be very much in Rossi's interest to commission independent tests. He should have done that before filing a lawsuit. If the tests worked, I.H. would have paid him. No one would be happier than I.H. to see the thing really works.

(Okay, I might be happier . . .)

Many people would be willing to test the machines. He would have no trouble arranging an independent test.

Quote from Nigel Appleton

Sorry, but you're wrong. Rossi can do anything he likes with the IP, so long as he doesn't SELL items made using it in the territories already ceded to IH.

@AN: You just forget, that all useful reactors were built by IH...

May be you should explain the intention behind your posts!

We all would like that IH makes/agrees such an independent test of a big franky. May be You don't like this idea?

Quote from Nigel Appleton

Assuming this fascinating business comes to trial, I do hope that counsel for IH ensure that the idea that Rossi could could at any time have openly demonstrated a working eCat . . .

He did. Not only that, IH (i.e., specifically Dameron) built reactors themselves. Darden (yes, the VC guy) apparently fueled them himself. They produced COPs upwards of 9. Dameron was still running them as late as January 2016 in the same building where Murray was just getting set up with his modified version of the reactor. That is, until IH boxed everything up and closed shop, according to Murray, in response to the filing of the lawsuit.

Quote from Nigel Appleton

Sorry, but you're wrong. Rossi can do anything he likes with the IP, so long as he doesn't SELL items made using it in the territories already ceded to IH.

While I agree with you on this point, IH is (humorously) claiming otherwise in the suit. They think their territorial license somehow blocks Rossi globally.

Quote from Wyttenbach

@AN: You just forget, that all useful reactors were built by IH...

May be you should explain the intention behind your posts!

We all would like that IH makes/agrees such an independent test of a big franky. May be You don't like this idea?

There are no "useful "reactors!

IH have already tried and failed to reproduce Rossi's claims.

Rossi either cannot or will not tell them where, if anywhere, they went wrong.

Rossi also claimed on JONP to have built more eCats for commercial use, although he seems to have been lying about this.

I infer you think that IH are just lying about their inability to show any excess heat, (let alone the risible COP levels claimed in the equally risible ERV report). Totally illogical. The market for any energy device with a COP of 80+ is such that $100 million would be a very cheap price to pay.

Why on earth should IH fart about reneging on their obligations if they could access trillions of dollars potential revenue ? AND when they are faced with the fact that theirs is NOT a world-wide license and Rossi/Leonardo could simply introduce working eCats into those territories where it's permitted for them to do so and make IH look like complete clowns (as well as criminals)

Face it, Witters, Rossi is an out-and -out fraudster and has never had anything worth a plugged nickel.

Quote from JedRothwell

No one would be happier than I.H. to see the thing really works.

But it could damage their very valuable portfolio of non-commercially-viable LENR technologies.

Quote from Nigel Appleton

IH have already tried and failed to reproduce  reproduced Rossi's claims.

FTFY

Quote from IH Fanboy

While I agree with you on this point, IH is (humorously) claiming otherwise in the suit. They think their territorial license somehow blocks Rossi globally.

Quote from Nigel Appleton

I infer you think that IH are just lying about their inability to show any excess heat, (let alone the risible COP levels claimed in the equally risible ERV report). Totally illogical. The market for any energy device with a COP of 80+ is such that $100 million would be a very cheap price to pay.

Why on earth should IH fart about reneging on their obligations if they could access trillions of dollars potential revenue ? AND when they are faced with the fact that theirs is NOT a world-wide license and Rossi/Leonardo could simply introduce working eCats into those territories where it's permitted for them to do so and make IH look like complete clowns (as well as criminals)

I reiterate as above. I would be interested in your answer to the question of why Rossi does not simply introduce working eCats in those parts of the world where he can That would show the skeptics! And show up IH for the scoundrels that you and others claim them to be.

Quote from LLTL

Almost 7000 comments in this thread and still no one can make a convincing argument how Andrea Rossi has scammed everyone in the last 6 years.

Explain me the scam please, I just can't understand the argument.

What's his scam? What's his endgoal? You can't claim incompetence and fraud at the same time. That's an incredible weak argument. (I am still waiting for the Lugano report to get retracted, this needs to happen before the trial or IH doesn't stand any chance in court)

And explain me also how IH got scammed when they got 50million on investments while they let Rossi run his 1MW reactor with the same ERV who did their first validation test 3 years ago.

Didn't IH registered in 2015 a european patent which described an unknown extensive test of an e-cat with a high COP.

What's also very curious in this courtcase is IH doesn't go all in on the technical side, if they really think that 1MW reactor is one big scam. You only have to hire the best technical people in the business to make that case. Very strange that they can hire the most expensive lawyers but not the best technical people.

Lltl,

Almost 7 years of Rossis says,

and not 1 single person in the world can figure out how it works, if it works, why it works, where it works.

Not 1 single person in the world has come forward and said,

"I have an Ecat, it performs as stated,

Energy Out> Energy In.

Not 1 single person in the world has been able to replicate anything Rossi has suggested.

Not 1 person can come forward and corroborate the "robotized" facotories.

Doesn't that make you the slightest bit wary of anything coming from Rossi?

Why in the world would anyone, anywhere believe anything this guy says?

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Quote from IH Fanboy

But it could damage their very valuable portfolio of non-commercially-viable LENR technologies.

What the heck is valuable about a non-commercially-viable LENR technology? If there exists a commercially viable LENR technology, then the non-viable stuff gets walked away from (or sold to someone who thinks they can make it viable)

Quote from Nigel Appleton

I reiterate as above. I would be interested in your answer to the question of why Rossi does not simply introduce working eCats in those parts of the world where he can That would show the skeptics! And show up IH for the scoundrels that you and others claim them to be.

I suppose that will be his next move. And from the rumbling we hear from Alan, it is probably underway. One thing is for certain: if the Quark X works as third parties have reported, this lawsuit doesn't matter much. The world changes. Darden/IH will be a footnote when the histories are written.