Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • Based on some of the Manara et al papers, especially the one regarding the Christiansen wavelength, I think an IR (wrong) COP of 9 could be done. The pore size and grain size of alumina would have to be optimized to concentrate the peak IR emission band significantly more than is usual for typical alumina materials. If someone wanted to fund this, it may have industrial applications, like heating specific materials without heating the surrounding environment much, sort of like the way a microwave oven is optimized for heating water molecules, but using IR radiation instead.


    Possibly using a band pass filter on the IR camera could accomplish something similar.


    It would be hard to do a false COP of 9 by accident using IR, though, in my opinion, without also measuring electrical input poorly due to wavelength manipulation or delta-wye mix-ups.


    Yes, that reminds me:


    For input power mis-measurement, using a current clamp above the current it saturates will do that... So that is another option to add to the known reversed clamp or the trivial measure one phase and forget to multiply by 3. Delta-Wye switching does not directly cause an error with a 3 phase power analyser, but could contribute indirectly, or if power was measured in some less robust way, for example by measuring only voltage.

  • I speak with evidence. IH says under oath in deposition that they did not achieve excess heat. So they are either lying, mistaken, or telling the truth. It is you who say that there is no evidence because you assume they are lying.


    For some members of IH like Darden there is no risk telling this. They can always throw a poker ace like: I don't know physics...


    Yes, speaks volumes of the desperation to find ANYTHING to justify continued investment in what was being realised to a boondoggle.

    Rossi claimed that he built some. He claimed they worked. I.H. tested the ones he made and the ones they made. None of them worked. But, anyway, if Rossi has one that works, he can have it tested independently. If it works, I.H. will pay up. Or, if they don't pay up, he can easily win the lawsuit by citing the independent replication. Either way it is in his interests to have the claim confirmed independently.


    Unluckily the burden of proof is on the IH side. They signed a foolish contract...


    Thus you can repeat it a thousands more times that Rossi has nothing, IH did see any positive COP etc..

    To end this cheating game IH must make the first step for a new test. Otherwise they will have to pay.

    There isn't anymore a cheap resort for IH, as their lawyers completely screwed things up, by initially delivering FUD papers, in the bare hope of an easy bargain win. No court will like the DN40, wrong flow-meter position approach... Even more severe they threatened witnesses.

  • @THH. What was the claimed input power in Lugano? A figure of 800Watts comes to mind, but that's from memory. I can get a better insulated (and smaller) reactor to 1500C on 160W. So I would thin that 800W (if I am correct) would not need to be any kind of fiddled input measurement.


    I think about 900W. The issue with high temps I was thinking is that above about 1500C heating wires start melting

  • The moral of all this doubtful IR work (other than IR measures are very crude for heat flow measurement) is that a good valid experiment of should use control runs. If the control runs give strange answers, then your methods are wrong and you need to redesign your experiment.

  • In Spring 2011, Levi reported via a Lewan article in Nyteknik (link on request) that he had obtained an average power of appx 18 kW for 12 hours with a peak of 135 kW (!) from a device the size of a tennis ball, all on what amounted to a desktop. Strangely, VERY strangely, this Nobel Prize level achievement was never repeated-- not even when Dr. Brian Josephson personally emailed Levi and requested it (personal communication with Dr. BJ).


    Four or five years later, a vastly more complicated and hotter gadget makes 900 watts with convoluted and uncalibrated measurements? Wow! There's progress for you. And they don't reference the earlier work and remark on the huge decrement in power. This type of behavior, BTW, is a HALLMARK of a free energy type scam! Of course things start melting. The silly thing had no forced cooling system! Not even fins! The idiots just hung a plain tube in still air and heated it with a large electrical heater! WOW! Doesn't anyone here know the first thing about heat transfer and fluid flow?

  • Unluckily the burden of proof is on the IH side. They signed a foolish contract...

    No, in the U.S. court system the burden of proof is on Rossi. The defendant is assumed innocent. You have to show strong evidence that the test worked, I.H. knows it, and it tried to cheat Rossi. I.H. cannot be found guilty if they have a legitimate difference of opinion regarding the test results.

    Thus you can repeat it a thousands more times that Rossi hasnothing, IH did see any positive COP etc..

    To end this cheating game IH must make the first step for a newtest. Otherwise they will have to pay.

    Nope. Rossi would have to do that. I have never been in a lawsuit, but I have been in disputes over contracts. Unless there is strong proof the contract was fulfilled, the customer does not have to pay. The vendor can take back materials and refund the down payment, but he cannot demand payment when there is a dispute. (In this case, Rossi would have to refund the $11 million.) Consumer protection laws are strict about that. That applies to things like software as much as material things such as automobiles or a new roof.


    This contract was predicated on the Penon ERV report. That is supposed to be proof that the machine worked. That report is a travesty. I would give it a failing grade in high school. To fulfill a research contract, you can't just hand over a half-baked report saying "it worked!" and expect to be paid. It doesn't work that way. You have to provide a professional report that experts agree meets the original design goals. You will not find any professional on earth who thinks the Penon report meets professional standards.


    Even assuming I.H. agreed to let Penon be the ERV, that does not mean they have to accept a pile of slop from him. Again, business does not work that way. You might hire a distinguished architect and building firm, and agree to pay for a house they build. BUT, if a year later they deliver a rotting pile of lumber sitting in a hole in the ground filled with rain water and mosquitoes, you don't have to pay. Any business transaction is governed by common sense consumer protections. Rossi cannot trick people into paying by claiming there was an invisible heat exchanger, or by waving an idiotic report filled with elementary mistakes and impossibilities.


    For those who have not read it, the Penon report is here:


    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…/01/0197.03_Exhibit_3.pdf


    I cannot imagine how even the most ardent Rossi supporter would think this report merits a payment of $89 million. As I said, I wouldn't pay 89 cents for it. It is the worst piece of garbage I have seen, and I have seen & edited many bad papers in cold fusion.

  • And also today still Sigma 5 is the probability that his shoddy stuff works, it means: 2,857x10-7. Pay attention... this is my best and optimistic estimate.


    It seems that Rossi reads here occasionally. Now that it's clear that many people are aware of his tiny Tesla coil shenanigans, do you think he is busy trying to dream up some alternative Quark X trick for generating excitement from his fan base?


    Or maybe he and Bass are busy building robotic Beagle Bone factories?


    From JoNP, there seems to be no word about independent demonstrations that the E-Cat works, despite the enormous actual legal, financial, fan base and PR benefits this would result in.


    Hard to say what he's up to.

  • Quote from sigmoidal wrote:

    It seems that Rossi reads here occasionally.


    I think not occasionally, he passes a lot time doing this work.


    Quote from sigmoidal wrote:

    do you think he is busy trying to dream up some alternative Quark X trick for generating excitement from his fan base?


    Absolutely yes, he needs "to invent" another bedtime story to replace the previous ones, another huge breakthrough of his "amazing Team" to fascinate supporters next year.

    He use this trick from decades.

  • I find it interesting that Penon does not seem to have signed the report. It make me wonder. Perhaps there is a signed report out there but I haven't seen it.

  • JedRothwell


    Well, I am not an attorney, obviously... There is no predicting what judges will do-- they have wide latitude. I do agree that the legal system and its reliance on so-called experts for evidence can get so flaky that it is conceivable that Rossi could possibly win. Maybe the contracts Darden and IH signed are so bad, he will be able to pull it off. After all, they were grossly incompetent and incredibly negligent when they vetted Rossi and examined tests of the ecat. But Rossi hasn't much of a chance, IMHO. And of course, even if he won the trial, that would NOT mean that the ecats work.


    As for forcing independent testing, if it happened, it would probably have to originate with IH. They would ask for it, offer to pay the costs and noting that testing thus far was open to question and that the stakes were huge. The judge could hear arguments about it. What argument would Rossi use to refuse a quick simple test of any one module of his own choosing using mutually acceptable methods and a renown laboratory? The judge would then consider the request and rule to order the testing as requested by the defendant or not. I think that is how it happened in the Sniffex case. Even if the judge was not able to require the testing, Rossi's refusal to allow it would tell the jury a lot.


    Jones Day, IH's law firm, is one of the largest and most prestigious in the country and I doubt that they would want to lose this one and cost their client upwards of $300M! They will do everything they possibly can to discredit Rossi and Penon and well, that can't be THAT difficult.

  • I do agree that the legal system and its reliance on so-called experts for evidence can get so flaky that it is conceivable that Rossi could possibly win.

    I hope not! I think the jury would be flaky in that scenario, rather than the system.

    As for forcing independent testing, if it happened, it would probably have to originate with IH. They would ask for it, offer to pay the costs and noting that testing thus far was open to question and that the stakes were huge.

    I believe the lawsuit documents show that there have already been independent tests. I don't know which documents. I have not read most of them carefully. That is what other people who have read the documents told me.

  • I cannot imagine how even the most ardent Rossi supporter would think this report merits a payment of $89 million. As I said, I wouldn't pay 89 cents for it. It is the worst piece of garbage I have seen, and I have seen & edited many bad papers in cold fusion.


    You're pretty transparent. You make it sound like the report is for sale for $89 million. Which of course is absurd.

  • You're pretty transparent. You make it sound like the report is for sale for $89 million. Which of course is absurd.


    You say you want answers.

    That you are only looking for the truth.


    And yet you are unaware that that this lawsuit is entirely about a report on sale.


    But you are right, it is not for $89 million.

    It is $270 million.


    Jed was wrong again.

    Well done you.


    Why don't you make the $89 mil your next mantra.

    Forget the DN40. That's only a couple of bucks a foot.


    Pete

  • That is incorrect. I have seen it used in industrial calorimetry. It works well on a large scale. If you calibrate it and compare it to thermocouples, it works reliably.


    Yes, for an induction furnace used for smelting steel, etc., not characterizing a mystery home-made small cylindrical kiln with random heaters embedded in, or encasing, the shell, with mystery pixie dust burning (oops, undergoing a secret fusion reaction) within, and then characterizing the "fusion" output of the pixie dust from the outside with a camera, (even with a properly calibrated instrument).

  • @Pete,


    ;)


    Thanks for your advice. I seem to be getting a lot of it from camp IH recently.

    No Prob.

    I actually like you.


    Hang in there, because you do raise points that can be read about,

    through to most peoples logical conclusion.


    But please remember.

    Pro IH <> anti LENR

    and more importantly, Anti Rossi <> Anti LENR.


    It is not a subtle difference.


    Pete

  • I do agree that the legal system and its reliance on so-called experts for evidence can get so flaky that it is conceivable that Rossi could possibly win.

    Another time the same story:

    Insulting the US Legal System.

    US is a great Nation, with probably the best Universities, Research Centers and Industries in the World ...... I'm certain that if the Judge needs an Expert they need e.g. from MIT regarding LENR or any other University for general Engineering.

    I see again the tactic here to "soften" the consequences of IH loosing the trial at least regarding the "public opinion":

    If IH will lose it will be just because "the US legal system is not good enough" and not because IH is wrong.

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