Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Quote from IH Fanboy

Yes, there are emails between Rossi and Johnson Matthey. An order for 10kg of platinum sponge was apparently placed, or at least negotiated. You can check the record as it is open to everyone now. I'm sure we have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far as evidence goes. We'll see more at trial.

Well, to be clear, we know from the docket that Rossi did not purchase anything from Johnson Matthey.

They had a price quote from Johnson Matthey (which exceeded a millyun dollars), but Rossi said they never bought that platinum sponge.

But, that didn't stop him from purposely deceiving Bass about it, and this is entirely consistent with Rossi's previous behavior.

Previous to IH, he claimed that National Instruments was partnering with him to manufacture the first 1MW plant.

Then he stated that National Instruments were partnering with him on the instrumentation.

Later, National Instruments provided a press release stating that they were not manufacturing anything for Rossi, that Rossi had not even purchased ANY National Instruments equipment.

Also, from the docket, we have Dott. Rossi demanding that Bass find a supplier of 5 MV low current transformers. Bass replies that he could not find any suppliers of these because there is no dielectric material capable of such high voltages (this annoyed Rossi, indicating his confusion regarding the properties of electricity). Rossi then told Bass to get a quote for 100,000 of these 5MV transformers that he was sure existed if Bass wasn't so dense. (But of course, we know that Bass was right).

But I'm sure that you and other Rossi acolytes will exercise extreme gifts of imagination in order to not allow yourselves to connect the dots regarding the Dottore's pattern of intentionally deceptive behavior and grand-standing in order to try to achieve his objectives.

@sig,

As I recall, NI was working with Rossi. And their modus operendi is to initially provide the equipment without payment for initial testing to LENR outfits. The NI reveal was big news at the time. NI would even talk about it openly at first, for example, in conferences. I remember watching NI's CEO do this on more than one occasion. NI eventually got cold feet and backed out. They have their reasons I'm sure, but most publicly traded companies are wusses when it comes to LENR. Anything that rocks the apple cart must usually be pursued by startups and outsiders.

Quote from IH Fanboy

@sig,

As I recall, NI was working with Rossi. And their modus operendi is to initially provide the equipment without payment for initial testing to LENR outfits. The NI reveal was big news at the time. NI would even talk about it openly at first, for example, in conferences. I remember watching NI's CEO do this on more than one occasion. NI eventually got cold feet and backed out. They have their reasons I'm sure, but most publicly traded companies are wusses when it comes to LENR. Anything that rocks the apple cart must usually be pursued by startups and outsiders.

According to e-mails received in February 2012, from Julia Betts, spokesperson for National Insturments, National Instruments was not working with Rossi.

“Leonardo Corporation/Andrea Rossi is currently not a customer, partner or distributor of National Instruments,” Betts wrote.

In a follow up email asking about a variety of possible relationships her company might have had with Rossi or his company, Betts wrote:

“Per our previous [news release] from November [2011],” Betts wrote, “we were only in discussions with the Leonardo Corporation regarding the use of National Instruments’ engineering tools. Currently, Leonardo Corporation/Andrea Rossi is not a customer of National Instruments.”

Maybe he asked them for a price quote from NI for 100,000 copies of software, or thermocouples, or something exceeding the cost of 1 millyun dollars and they got interested.

So Dott. Rossi called them a 'partner', because that's what the Dottore does.

But then things fell apart after that.

Then the Dottore asks for a price quote from Johnson Matthey for platinum sponge that costs more than a millyun dollars.

And he tells IH that he found a customer, but they're super secret and so we have to call them 'JM' instead of Johnson Matthey (because that is what the Dottore does).

Then he tells Bass to get a quote for 100,000 5MV transformers, despite Bass's protests (because that is what the Dottore does).

But sadly, nobody could give him that quote, because no such transformers exist.

But it is a fact that in 2011, the Dottore stated that NI was partnering with him to manufacture the first 1MW ecat, and NI subsequently stated that the Dottore was not a customer, partner or distributor of NI".

Obi Wan Dottore says: "No pattern to see here. This is not the scammer you're looking for. Move along."

Quote from IH Fanboy

@sig,

As I recall, NI was working with Rossi. And their modus operendi is to initially provide the equipment without payment for initial testing to LENR outfits. The NI reveal was big news at the time. NI would even talk about it openly at first, for example, in conferences. I remember watching NI's CEO do this on more than one occasion. NI eventually got cold feet and backed out. They have their reasons I'm sure, but most publicly traded companies are wusses when it comes to LENR. Anything that rocks the apple cart must usually be pursued by startups and outsiders.

I was on the floor of Nat. Inst. Week when Defkalion was to originally to present. Ni blocked their submission and barred them for exhibiting. I got an ear full of complains about how Rossi was NOT affiliated with NI. Yes Ni has helped some LENR researchers but that did not extend to Rossi to my knowledge. I believe Sig that Rossi never purchased anything from NI. However I will say that IH and their other research groups have. I have seen them in the labs.

In Defkalion's case, NI sent some of their engineers to help but quickly found that the way the measurement were made was totally wrong. Notice we hear much about them anymore.

I again ask for something other than Fanboy says that Ni was working with Rossi. Give your reference and proof, or is it just another one of your wild unverified claims. I sure would like to see you proof. (oh but then you never give actually proof)

Quote from IH Fanboy

oldguy,

Here is the one email we have: http://coldfusioncommunity.net…01/0207.44_Exhibit_44.pdf

Looks like an order was placed to me. Now, whether payment was actually made for the order remains unanswered. But Rossi was in communication with Johnson Matthey at least regarding an order of platinum sponge. We don't know the extent of all of the communications at this point.

Sure doesn't look like a order to me. It is a request for a pro forma invoice. That is he is asking Johnson Matthey to send a statement that they could supply the material and what would be its price for delivery to Fl. Looks very far from an order. It is like me asking if Rolls Royce could deliver me a dozen Silver Ghosts to Dallas Texas and what would it cost and could they go through customs.

Ask for costs and delivery costs all you want, its not an order. And I see absolutely nothing about asking them to buy steam for some existing factory in Florida. In fact from the customs question it seems obvious that it was NOT about a working Matthey factory in Florida.

You are strange.

@IHFB

BTW, a 'pro forma' invoice is merely a price quote. They are two names for the same thing.

An actual invoice for purchased goods is not 'pro forma', it's the required payment for a purchase that has been executed.

This obviously confused Bass. He thought they were actually cooking boatloads of platinum (and graphene) in those pipes.

But we find out from Rossi in deposition that he didn't have anything other than possibly tiny amounts of platinum which was recovered from filters, because the platinum sponge cost too much.

Dewey are you out there?

I am trying to remember with all this wanting to buying Pt talk- didn't Rossi have some kind of similar gold thing in Italy?

What were the gold trafficking charges against Rossi? Was he selling the gold from the miracle "oil processing" process or something like that.

It seems like leaving the country with a few Kg of Pt would be hard to trace.

A day after the Lugano report came out, I made a tentative order for a 25 kg pail of Ni62.

The supplier (generically) reported quantities available to that size.

Of course, this was much more expensive than Pt sponge, and was not available even in 100 g packages (but 100 g could be made for me in several weeks or so, after a rather shockingly huge down payment was sent).

But those negotiations did not mean that I was working with the supplier.

I still have the quotes on my laptop. They were confidential, due to the large volume I requested. (Maybe one day I will post a redacted version.)

Quote from oldguy

You are strange.

Aren't we all.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Aren't we all.

No -I am normal- at least that is what my director told me,.... oh wait that was me too.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Please don't misunderstand. One must have the ability to separate the JMP ruse itself from the reference to a legal entity as a separate person. The former is at least distasteful and the latter is completely normal and does not imply the former.

Certainly that's the hope. The hope is that the deception has an endpoint. The hope is that all the lies do not involve the actual functioning of the technology itself. This is the place I came to which helped me come to a decision about AR.

What is more likely: that the lies extend from the known lies to the technology itself, or that he has lied about many things, but told the truth about the technology? Can you really believe that one man, with a long history of deceptive practice, has solved problems that the worlds (no apostrophe) best scientists have never solved, or is it more likely that it doesn't work and is a scam?

In order to believe he has working technology, you must believe:

The Lugano test falsely showed high levels of excess heating, which he has claimed is valid. You must believe that it is actually valid despite the evidence.

Despite probably salting the "spent fuel" from multiple tests to fool isotopic analyses, that he has something that actually works (but is it the Lugano formula)?

That he lied in his patent and left out a secret ingredient or preparatory step.

That his ruse to get IH to move the plant was an innocent act to just get the GPT started.

That Darden is lying about the high COP blank reactor.

That Darden is lying about internal tests not validating AR's claims.

That he is deceptive on a daily basis on his blog in his use of puppets, but the puppets and he tell the truth in what they discuss.

That he innocently removed the piping and homemade heat exchanger to be used elsewhere.

That he lied repeatedly on his blog about how satisfied the customer was and so forth, but is telling the truth about his COP=80+ device.

While running the test, he developed a brand new device that produces excess heat, electricity, and light at incredible COPs.

That all his excuses for technical inadequacies in each and every one of the tests are unimportant.

I could keep going, but it is really not worth it. It is easy to get caught up on one particular issue and to not see the forest for the trees.

Quote from Jack Cole

What is more likely: that the lies extend from the known lies to the technology itself, or that he has lied about many things, but told the truth about the technology? Can you really believe that one man, with a long history of deceptive practice, has solved problems that the worlds (no apostrophe) best scientists have never solved, or is it more likely that it doesn't work and is a scam?

I'm glad you distilled it to this. Because I agree, this is the central and most important unanswered enigma of all. And I don't think it can be resolved by this lawsuit, unfortunately. Originally, I thought it was a possibility, but with time and thousands of pages of Rossi/IH documents, I don't think it can or will be resolved in this manner, nor do I think that Rossi or IH want it to be.

I think at this point we will need to look to external references. MFMP/me356 black box test. Parkhomov. Chinese replicators. BLP. Brillouin. Heterogeneous LENR+ using a transition metal and H. Nobody will trust a Rossi demo from here on out. He shouldn't even hold one. If Rossi wants to regain any credibility that he might of once had (and if you are reading this Mr. Rossi, I suggest that you take this to heart): Provide a Quark X to the MFMP for black box verification test just as me356 has purportedly agreed to do. You can retain your trade secrets on the catalyst.

I suppose I can reveal that 25 kg of Ni62 (if it could be made) would be in the general vicinity of half a billion dollars, based on my quote from that supplier.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

I suppose I can reveal that 25 kg of Ni62 (if it could be made) would be in the general vicinity of half a billion dollars, based on my quote from that supplier.

That seems too high. MFMP got ~70 mg of 62Ni for around $1k, IIRC. That would be less than $15k/g, compared to $20k/g for your quote. Maybe there's a reverse discount for quantity...

I have two quotes, and agreed not to disclose the actual price. Since the quotes were written up by the mg, scaling to kg is incorrect anyways. I have a valid quote for 20 g and 1 gram, and several emails going back and forth walking me down from the original 25 kg enquiry, suggesting that my order was in the millions of dollars and asking did I make a mistake or can I substitute.

I suppose there could be a premium for locking up the supply chain for several months and/or scrounging up every mg of Ni62 on Earth to get 100 g ready.

Quote from ele

Rossi technical claims have been proved correct by the USPTO . I see that you don't trust US Justice and probably you don't trust USPTO also.

Hopefully others here have provided you with enough information for you to reassess your understanding of what it means for a patent to be issued by the USPTO.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I've seen this critique repeated many times, by many individuals here, in many different ways. But the fact of the matter is that legal entities are persons in the eyes of the law, and those familiar with business in general understand this and refer to legal entities as if they were separate persons, even if they have some role in its operation. This is totally and completely within the realm of normalcy.

If by "this," you're simply making a generic point, fine. If by "this" you're implying that Rossi speaking about himself in the third person as the director of JMP in correspondence with IH was completely normal, I'd have to disagree.

Quote from IH Fanboy

The JMP situation started out, in my opinion, as a way to kick IH into gear with the GPT.

Recall that finding a customer was not a requirement of the GPT, and that the terms of the GPT made no reference to a customer. With this in mind, your suggestion that the JMP ruse was a way to kick IH into gear with the GPT would raise as many questions as it does answers for someone just coming up to speed on the story.

Quote from Shane D.

And if this goes to trial, and it probably will, IMO the jury will be wondering, and asking, the same thing. We are all human afterall ... and this is a very perplexing question...why did Rossi sue, if he is the scammer?

Your scenario is about a jury, whose members will presumably have no prior knowledge of the case. For me personally, I was somewhat irritated with Rossi towards the end of the 1-year trial, but I still kept an open mind that something interesting about Rossi's technology was going to be revealed at the end of the period. The moment I read that Rossi had started a lawsuit, I rolled my eyes and concluded that Rossi was full of it. I suppose if I had not followed Rossi and his shenanigans for several years prior, I might have sided with him initially. I do remember wondering what he was thinking in starting the lawsuit, which seemed like an incredible miscalculation and suggested to me that he might be sincere in his delusion.