Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from Paradigmnoia

    If the Doral Plant worked, there should have been over $800000 worth of Ni62 in those reactors.

    If Rossi substituted IH's fuel, he had better be able to account for their Ni62.

    That's right, IH's ashes and IH's fuel in the other "domestic heater" reactors also.

    IH paid for the Plant 100%. Paid in full. They own all of it, reactors, fuel, ash, and even the rusty water stains and magic over-pumping metering pumps.

    Yes that is why I mention criminal theft is not ruled out in Rossi's future. And what happened to the pressure gauge and temp sensor located on the pipes outside the box and the data in the control container. Penon was to have the gauge checked but did he ever give it back?


    Notice theft would be something in addition to simple spoliation.

    Quote from THHuxleynew
    • The handwritten notes that are now released give a lot of insight into their real motives. They were very interested in Rossi IP because of the apparently independent evidence it worked, and their own replications initially seeming to work reliably. Obviously they could not trust Rossi an inch, and the negative evidence (COP=9 dummy, Boeing failed to replicate) was a worry. In that situation keeping Rossi sweet to help them get things to work - maybe all the failures were missing some magic step - was an imperative for Darden. He must now regret it!


    To be clear, Darden never said the dummy had a COP of 9. He was not that specific with his language. Nevertheless, the very fact that Darden shared the dummy story and that he knew in Jan. 2014 that it didn't work is not going to bode well for him, I'm afraid.


    Paradigmnoia's 'pointless discussion' is far from pointless. The point is that if Rossi really did have a process which transmuted Ni, Cu or anything else into isotopic Ni62, that would be both very lucrative financially in and of itself, and a major research finding that, if shown to be valid, would take the physics world by storm - opening up entirely new lines of investigation and research worldwide regarding nuclear physics.


    Rossi provided a 'sample' of ash to the Swedish investigators, which was supposedly from the E-Cat . On analysis by labs in Uppsala University (in Sweden), it was greater than 99% Ni62 (Levi et. al., 2014), the same purity that can be obtained when purchasing 'pure' Ni62 (which is expensive because of the amount of work it takes to extract isotopic Ni62 from natural Ni, where Ni62 has about 3.6% abundance).


    One explanation is that an unknown nuclear process occurred in Rossi's E-Cat which no other physicist in the world has ever encountered.


    Another explanation is that Rossi intentionally deceived the Swedes by sending them pure Ni62 that he purchased, in order to make them think that his process was real.


    Of course, using imagination, there are other possible explanations.


    This raises the question, however, as to why Rossi has made no mention about his ash, nor discussed the significant financial benefit that a true process yielding Ni62 would create, nor has he claimed his process yields pure Ni62 ash since then.


    My opinion? Rossi's ash is in trouble.

    Quote from SSC

    If IH people were certain they could not consider the Doral test to be the GPT because of the lack of a signature, why did they promise Rossi to pay him in any case if he had achieved positive results? (See for example 254-04). It seems that their intention was not to pay him at all, since the promise was only oral, so retractable even at the last moment.

    • Strange question. Rossi removed parts of IH testing sensors and plumbing for the invalid claimed testing and 2 year sale of heat to an “independent customer” and even prevented IH agents from entering to check on the testing. It is clear that if it worked as claimed it needed to be done correctly with proper measurements and run truly independent of Rossi. If he did that I am sure they would be delighted to pay for such technology. They had commitments for money reallocation if he could do that.

    If you want to buy a car but the dealer will not allow you to test drive it, and as you watch him try to drive of the showcase floor it sputters and stalls and the gauges are nonfunctioning you would not buy it then. But you might be willing to buy it if it was fixed and you and your mechanic could test drive it. Fairly simple concept.


    IH wanted working technology that their people could get working so they could commercialize it. They wanted it so badly that they were willing to give Rossi another chance to prove it. But Rossi did not what to do it with IH meters and transfer any (if any) technology to them. All he had to do is use proper measurement, do it again and transfer the technology so others could do it as in agreed to in the previous agreements.

    Quote from SSC

    They have never been allies of Rossi. They are scientists who have tested his reactor and now they try to replicate it based on what they have learned. Why would Rossi have to trust them to blab the secrets of his discovery?

    Why trust them with this claimed secret- Because it agreed to technology transfer. He was required to by previous agreements ( that also include future tech that can be use to generate heat)

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Not only that, they even built it (allegedly). Just for fun though. Because they like building stuff that they know doesn't work.


    Except that even you know that all the evidence shows that they simultaneously thought it worked originally (because they thought the Swedes/Lugano results were more independent and valid than we now know they actually were), AND that Rossi was difficult to deal with and that Penon was not trustworthy.


    They built it to 'crush the tests', if it worked, or determine definitively that it did not work. It was a high risk/high reward proposition, given what they knew at the time. But knowing definitively that it didn't work was also of some (obviously much lower) value to them.


    We just had several posts from Cassarini's hand written notes, along with THH's excellent summary, pointing this out clearly. But also we know that Darden specifically pushed Rossi for a 'big independent validator' in an email he sent, and Rossi wrote back IN ALL CAPS refusing to allow that to happen saying that it would create 'big troubles'. They obviously didn't know if worked or not, and were trying to find out.


    So you are contradicting your own substantial knowledge of the case by making your quip quoted above.


    Why do you do that?

    • Official Post
    Quote from oldguy

    Why trust them with this claimed secret- Because it agreed to technology transfer. He was required to by previous agreements ( that also include future tech that can be use to generate heat)


    I am not aware that there was any agreement about technology transfer from Rossi to the Lugano team, in fact I am certain there was not. The quote from SSC you are referring to was clearly about this, not about IH.

    I recall that Rossi claimed that he refueled the 1MW reactor on the last day of the "test", the day before the disastrous inspection days. He also implied that he sent ash samples to Oops-salla for study and those results were published in Spring of 2016. I think it was physically impossible for Rossi to have refueled the "reactors" in one day without at least a shutdown and that his story was just cover for fuel that was "dead" all along. No matter what, he did share confidential IH property / IP by sending ash samples out for analysis without first obtaining IH approval and thus, violated the agreement.

    One of the big mysteries of this case :

    Why didn't I..H.. take the 1MW apart (under court order, as part of the Doral on-site inspection) strip away the insulation, produce an as-built schematic (or 3D model), open, inspect and analyze the ashes from one of the Big Frankies, etc etc. (I agree with D..W.. that it would be physically impossible to refuel them.)

    Instead, their expert Smith's total knowledge of the ecat is a drawing he "found on the web". He misreads Penon's schematic to assume the condensate connects to the steam riser, he shows multiple pictures of the non-existing super-heater stages, which could easily be IN the Big Frankies (eg the "fins" of the original fat-cat as illicitly photographed by Mats).

    Why didn't I..H.. take the 1MW apart (under court order, as part of the Doral on-site inspection) strip away the insulation, produce an as-built schematic (or 3D model), open, inspect and analyze the ashes from one of the Big Frankies, etc etc. (I agree with D..W.. that it would be physically impossible to refuel them.)

    @Alan - surely since this this stuff is impounded as evidence the sort of in-depth destructive analysis you suggest could not be done. Never mind - there is hope yet - perhaps at some later state in proceedings it will be possible to do this.


    IHFB: To be clear, Darden never said the dummy had a COP of 9. He was not that specific with his language. Nevertheless, the very fact that Darden shared the dummy story and that he knew in Jan. 2014 that it didn't work is not going to bode well for him, I'm afraid.


    IHFB: Not only that, they even built it (allegedly). Just for fun though. Because they like building stuff that they know doesn't work.


    Rossiesque statements - almost a dictionary definition. It is difficult to see you really believing this stuff.


    No-one here has said IH knew Rossi's stuff did not work and I posted ample evidence from the documents (Cassarini handwritten notes) that they had high hopes, but no certainty, it would work.


    The logic here seems to elude you so let's go for the car analogy a bit more:


    Suppose you have ordered a special new super-duper automobile with a special high-power engine. it is all research stuff and you are very excited. It has already been test-driven by a whole load of profs from Upsalla who rave about its road-holding, high acceleration, fuel economy, and in-car back-scratcher.


    You are delivered this car and unwrap it. You don't have the manual (it is a one-off and almost as complex as those F1s) but the manufacturer has given you some instructions about how to switch the engine on. You do this (or think you do) and the prototype you are shipped does not work.


    Now IHFB - here is your MCQ. In this situation do you?


    (a) Assume the car design does not work and scrap it even though you have paid $10m for the development and hope to sell it for $ billions if it works

    (b) Assume because the inventor is a nice guy with broken English that it is bound to work and ignore the problem proceeding as though you are sure you will have a working car

    or

    (c) Reckon you don't know whether you made a mistake, or this is a one-off car fault, or maybe the car design never worked. Do everything you can to get the car checked out. Keep the inventor happy (he is temperamental and needs you to say nice things about his cars else he goes off in a huff) while trying to get help from him and others to make the car, or other versions of the same design, work. Make contingencies for if the car ends up not working while keeping plans in place for if it turns out all to be a silly mistake and mendable.

    Quote from we_cat_global

    If so, only after IH violated the agreement.


    What part of the agreement did IH violate (from the contract)? They paid the 11.5 million for the E-Cat and the license to the E-Cat IP. Even if the Doral 'test' was part of the contract for the $89Million (which IH denies and a Federal Judge will determine if Rossi's interpretation can even be argued in front of a jury), IH's payment was not due until later - in fact a day after Rossi sued them. So Rossi's violation could not have happened 'only after IH violated the agreement', as you assert.


    Your statement is inane, as you cannot show any evidence that IH violated their part of the contract then, whereas Rossi's sending a sample of ash off for analysis without IH's permission is a clear violation of the contract.


    Or did you not bother to read the contract?

    Quote from sigmoidal

    We just had several posts from Cassarini's hand written notes, along with THH's excellent summary, pointing this out clearly. But also we know that Darden specifically pushed Rossi for a 'big independent validator' in an email he sent, and Rossi wrote back IN ALL CAPS refusing to allow that to happen saying that it would create 'big troubles'.


    The original validation test was apparently extended to two days so that IH could use whichever 'big independent validator' they wanted to provide further validation on the second day of the test. Rossi's concern was that the agreed-to ERV not be changed last minute, because that could cause a contractual issue. I think you might be exploiting Rossi's lack of command of the English language a little here when you harp on his inelegant phrase 'big troubles.'

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    The original validation test was apparently extended to two days so that IH could use whichever 'big independent validator' they wanted to provide further validation on the second day of the test. Rossi's concern was that the agreed-to ERV not be changed last minute, because that could cause a contractual issue. I think you might be exploiting Rossi's lack of command of the English language a little here when you harp on his inelegant phrase 'big troubles.'


    Rossi's use of 'big troubles' as inelegant has nothing to do with my argument - are you stating that Rossi didn't object to having a big independent tester of the IH (or 1MW) device? That was my point - that IH wanted truly independent verification but Rossi objected. This is not disputed (at least I thought I could assume that). They eventually hired Boeing, so obviously they weren't sure if it worked or not. They wanted verfication from someone other than Rossi's buddy Penon because they weren't sure whether it worked or not at that point. (My use of 'big troubles' was shorthand to clarify the exact email exchange I'm talking about - your response shows that you also know this exchange - so thanks for confirming).


    You didn't address your own self-contradictory statement: you know that IH did not build their device "Because they like building stuff that they know doesn't work." And a sarcastic intepretation doesn't help either if you're trying to imply that IH believed whole-heartedly that Rossi's stuff worked: obviously (from the docket) they had skepticism at that point and were straining to get better verification. But you dropped that quip anyway.


    I don't understand why you do that.


    (It doesn't lend credence to your assertion that you 'just want the truth' or that you have superior 'objectivity' compared to other commenters here.)

    @THH,


    IH would not have built four shiny brand new cars (i.e., the four Big Frankies) without first having built a simpler prototype vehicle (a simple reactor with some controls), and would not have proceeded with building the four big impressive ones without having high confidence that the simpler prototype worked. Would they?

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    @THH,


    IH would not have built four shiny brand new cars (i.e., the four Big Frankies) without first having built a simpler prototype vehicle (a simple reactor with some controls), and would not have proceeded with building the four big impressive ones without having high confidence that the simpler prototype worked. Would they?


    So many assumptions there...


    In any case, who says they did not first build some small ones which (according to Rossi's test methods) worked?

Subscribe to our newsletter

It's sent once a month, you can unsubscribe at anytime!

View archive of previous newsletters

* indicates required

Your email address will be used to send you email newsletters only. See our Privacy Policy for more information.

Our Partners

Supporting researchers for over 20 years
Want to Advertise or Sponsor LENR Forum?
CLICK HERE to contact us.