Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

    Quote from [email protected]

    There's nothing perpetual motion about LENR, the same E=MC^2 and entropy losses apply just like anything else.


    The USPTO has given several patents over the years to LENR and LENR-related devices because they didn't realize they were doing so. This requirement of theoretical proof before issuing patent protection is unique to LENR among peer-reviewed scientific developments (except perhaps Polywater, which was proven conclusively to be contaminated samples).


    If Rossi's IP is nothing but a hot dog cooker then why does IH want to hold onto it, even in the face of an offer of refund by Rossi?


    For those who are interested the statement regarding Rossi's refund offer comes from Mats Lewans's blog, see https://animpossibleinvention.com/blog/


    Below I have cut-and-pasted the relevant portion:


    "After my meeting with Rossi (first time for me since September 2012), I have a few other updates.

    Claiming that everything he said could be proven with documents (or that he otherwise would be lying), Rossi told me regarding the one-year 1MW test that:

    • All the instruments for measurements were installed, under observation of IH and Rossi, by the ERV (Expert Responsible for Validation) Fabio Penon, who had been communicating also with Darden, receiving technical suggestions from him on this matter. All communications with the ERV were made with both Darden and Rossi in copy.
    • The flow meter was mounted according to all standard requirements, for example at the lowest point in the system.
    • The MW plant was placed on blocks, 33 cm above the ground, to make sure that leaking water or any hidden connections would become visible.
    • The two IH representatives present at the test were Barry West and Fulvio Fabiani (who worked for Rossi from January 2012 until August 2013, when the MW plant was delivered to IH in North Carolina, after which he was paid by IH as an expert who would make the technology transition from Rossi to IH easier). West and Fabiani reported to JT Vaughn every day on the phone.
    • Three interim reports, about every three months, with basically the same results as in the final report, were provided by the ERV during the test.
    • During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept.
    • The unidentified customer (‘JM Products’) using the thermal energy from the MW plant, had its equipment at the official address—7861, 46th Street, Doral, Fl. The total surface of the premises was 1,000 square meters, of which the MW plant used 400 and the customer 600.
    • The equipment of the customer measured 20 x 3 x 3 meters, and the process was running 24/7.
    • The thermal energy was transfered to the customer with heat exchangers and the heat that was not consumed was vented out as hot air through the roof.
    • The water heated by the MW plant was circulating in a closed loop, and since the return temperature was varying, due to different load in the process of the customer, Rossi insisted that the energy corresponding to heating the inflowing cooled water (at about 60˚C) to boiling temperature would not be taken into account for calculating the thermal power produced by the MW plant. The ERV accepted. (This was conservative, decreasing the calculated thermal power. The main part of the calculated thermal power, however, derives from the water being evaporated when boiling).
    • He also insisted that an arbitrary chosen 10 percent should be subtracted in the power calculation, with no other reason than to be conservative. The ERV accepted.
    • IH never had access to the customer’s area. At the end of the test, an expert hired by IH, insisted that it was important to know where the water came from and where it was used. The ERV explained that this had no importance.
    • The average flow of water was 36 cubic meters per day.
    • At the end of the test, the ERV dismounted all the instruments by himself, in the presence of Rossi and IH, packed them and brought everything to DHL for transportation to the instrument manufacturers who would recalibrate the instruments and certify that they were not manipulated.
    • After the test, IH wanted to remove the MW plant from the premises in Florida, but Rossi would not accept until the remaining $89M were paid according to the license agreement. Rossi’s and IH’s attorneys then agreed that both parties should lock the plant with their own padlocks (as opposed to the claim by Dewey Weaver—a person apparently connected to IH, but yet not clear in what way—that ‘IH decided to padlock the 1MW container after observing and documenting many disappointing actions and facts’)."
    Quote from Alan Smith

    Only if your point was to allege chicanery with the samples by Levi. I hope it was not.


    No - my point was that Rossi would have had friends well capable of prestidigitation. I'd not imagine anyone other than Rossi to be directly dishonest, since I never assume this of anyone. Levi and the Swedes are guilty of putting into the public domain information which they know (if even half competent as scientists - which perhaps is not the case) should be retracted and not retracting it. They maybe have excuses for that, though from my POV it counts as bad academic practice and is inexcusable. Also, the description of the Lugano test as independent stretches truth to the breaking point, since Rossi and/or Fulvio were actually running it the whole time, with visits from the Swedes. That is not the impression you get from the report.

    I can't recall seeing the plant raised on blocks to over a foot from the ground. Besides if extra heat was going to be put into the system an obvious way would be on the 'customers' side maybe by band heaters. I wonder if the customer had their own power supply, might be worth looking up who rented the adjacent warehouses.


    My apologies: I had thought that I read somewhere that Mr. Penon had made himself unavailable. I look forward to his testimony (if he does appear).


    Any other questions to which I have been "evasive?"


    Further to above: I found at least one citation leading me to believe that Penon had made himself unavailable:


    "Penon - not a third party - key figure - vanished to a country where he cannot even be subpoenaed" posted by THHuxleyNew on May 14, 2017. I have multiple recollections on seeing the same information posted elsewhere. More "evasions" please.

    Quote from quizzical

    After the test, IH wanted to remove the MW plant from the premises in Florida, but Rossi would not accept until the remaining $89M were paid according to the license agreement. Rossi’s and IH’s attorneys then agreed that both parties should lock the plant with their own padlocks (as opposed to the claim by Dewey Weaver—a person apparently connected to IH, but yet not clear in what way—that ‘IH decided to padlock the 1MW container after observing and documenting many disappointing actions and facts’)."

    Thanks Quizzical.


    This last point is quite interesting. Rossi was paid $1.5 million for the plant. How could he "not accept" disposition of the plant that he did not own? Did he simply refuse entry for IH to remove it? I would imagine IH wanted to look into the plant to verify function and analyze particulars such as ash, water flow characteristics, etc. etc. Remember, Rossi scrapped the IH provided schematics and installed the system under his own design. I am sure that IH wanted to see how everything really worked. Is it not interesting that Rossi would deny IH their own equipment! Not really, as it probably would tell the true story.


    Also, as THH points out.... fake customer but not only that.... "the heat that was not consumed was vented out as hot air through the roof.".

    Rossi then states in court that a second floor heat exchanger pushed the air out a small window, not the roof.


    Yet these blatant lies will be ignored by the supporters, as meaningless and baseless. Yet they will make strong accusations against IH with no real facts, but only assumptions and hand waiving. Such as accusing IH of nefarious intent because of lack of due diligence but yet having an experienced attorney on board! In Rossi's case, proven lies ignored, in IH's case, accusation by implications without any knowledge at all of what really went on.


    Amazing! :rolleyes:


    But then, the supporters HAVE to dream up excuses and defenses for Rossi as he provides none for himself.


    Again, I have to ask the supporters this question. Since some can come up with such clever ideas about IH's evilness, please use those abilities to answer these questions:


    1) Why is Rossi not selling billions of dollars of eCats in Europe? Rossi stated the eCat was ready for commercialization himself and he is suing for $89 million dollars because HE is stating the plant ran for 350 days out of 400 with a COP > 80. Why is he not selling any? IH has no control in Europe. Rossi supposedly has a distributor there, in Hydrofusion. Oh wait... it was Rossi who proudly claimed a "magnificence" when he intentionally spoiled a test for Hydrofusion. (Another fraud test? hmmmm.)


    2) Why is Rossi scrapping the 1MW plant for the QuarkX? Scrapping a device with output of 1MW that runs 350 days out of 400 for a device that outputs 20W and has no confirmed existence at all!

    Yet he spends all his time and much money trying to get $89 million dollars from IH for the 1MW test! Surely you must state that if Rossi is not interested in the 1MW plant anymore, he would not deserve the $89 million from IH! If Rossi does not think the 1MW plant is worth while pursuing any more, why do you think IH should pay $89 million?


    3) If Rossi really had any working technology, it could easily be confirmed and tested by reputable agencies without any IP endangerment. I.E. similar to what MFMP and ME356 did. Look at the impact this would have had on the court case! Yet Rossi refuses and spends millions on lawyers instead of a fail proof test. Hmmmm.... wonder why?


    I have not seen any supporter provide logical and reasonable answers to the above.


    There is a very logical reason in you look at Rossi's history and continuing practice. HE DOES NOT HAVE A WORKING DEVICE>

    Quote from [email protected]

    The typical legal approach is to take things on face value. Rossi has 3 independent reports attesting to his technology, a bunch of swedish scientists who black box tested it, a book written about the technological development, thousands of hours of LENR anomalies to parallel his technology, a few highly regarded scientists who attest that there's something there.


    On the negative side, Rossi is his own worst enemy and you can't trust what he says.


    A am pro-LENR. I have not yet decided if Rossi is forwarding LENR or just an amazing con artist, the best con artist I have ever seen operate. If he really does have a LENR box then I hope he wins this case. If he's a con artist I hope he loses big time. My exposure to the legal system lends me to believe that we will not know further one way or the other (edit: about Rossi's motives) when this trial is over.


    "The typical legal approach is to take things on face value." Really, as a lawyer, I question everything that is said, especially those things said by my clients. I truly despise Ronald Reagan, but I agree with the line "trust, but verify."

    Quote from SSC

    The Optris cameras were always on and so did the PCE. Scientists have processed the data extracted from these tools, so a stop of the reactor's operation (though short) would have been noted. Fuel samples can be palmed?? Do you think Rossi exchanged the ash while delivering the champions to the Swedes? Now he has become a magician too? The more you insist on attributing him such wicked acts, the more evident it is that all your reconstruction does not hold ...

    Well, if he IS a magician, he's got all the other ones beat, even David Copperfield.

    Quote from [email protected]

    Well, if he IS a magician, he's got all the other ones beat, even David Copperfield.

    I guess it seems like that to you. But in reality he chooses his marks very carefully. Naive retired scientists. A journalist who wants to usher in the LENR revolution, a band of internet followers from a web site than bans anyone with contrary views. it is a great way to get true believers. And, with a worldwide internet audience, you can find true believers for anything.


    As for IH. You are right - while IH were interested it was better than he deserved, and better than anyone else. But again, Darden et al are not scientists, they are VCs wanting to give something back to the world, with the admirable ideal that LENR could save the world from global warming. These motivations are powerful, and real. It is ironic that now IH have exposed his lies, the fact that they were once interested is held up as proof that he must have something.


    Against that, Rossi does not have to try hard as a magician - none of his audience want to catch him out.

    Alan raises the "Levi issue" and indeed Levi is the mystery man in all this. What did he know? What does he know now? Why has he been so quiet ever since the extensive 2011 Krivit interview he gave which is on Youtube?


    In my formulation of events, Levi has to be a co-conspirator of Rossi's **OR** he has to be monumentally dumb and inept. I am leaning to granting him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he really is so incompetent that he never insisted on repeating the one best test EVER of any ecat device-- the one he claimed to have conducted in 2011 and which was reported by Lewan in NyTeknik. But the truth is that we have no way of knowing what Levi knows, thinks or does because, far as I know, he has never granted any meaningful interview and never has been asked (and has answered) relevant questions since the Krivit interview. And he does not participate in internet forums. That may be the smartest thing he has done in this whole bizarre story.


    Hopefully, we will learn more about the coffee expert and amateur magician when he testifies at the trial. IF he testifies. If he's even there.




    Thanks for the links to Dr. Qin's story. Her connection to all this is a mystery. From her background, she should have been able to recognize that a) Rossi was probably a fraud b) the ecat did not work or at least c) that the ecat had never been properly tested and d) that IH had not vetted the ecat properly. Perhaps, she knew all the above and Darden et. al. disregarded her advice. It would be fun to ask her but of course, she couldn't say.


    I think it says volumes that she quit the IH job. She wouldn't do that if she had thought LENR, as funded by IH and Woodford, had any promise. Why walk away from an opportunity to participate during the early start of a potentially trillion dollar business? Who would not want to participate and be on the ground floor of such an enterprise when it began? Quitting would be like giving up Microsoft stock and an inside position high up the company *after* its meteoric rise had begun.


    Has anyone see her name on a witness list?

    Quote

    Well, if he IS a magician, he's got all the other ones beat, even David Copperfield.


    Did you notice that Rossi never performed the same illusion ... errrr... experiment twice exactly the same way. Classic magician style. You don't want the audience to see how you did it. This was particularly striking in his early days. Each time there was a demo involving Lewan, it was done with different equipment. Each time, Rossi was told on his blog and by people talking to him (Jed Rothwell for example) EXACTLY how to improve the test and to make it credible. He NEVER, not ONCE, followed that advice. Instead he went to to another inadequate demo involving a different ecat. From the originals with heaters that could ONLY heat the coolant, to the "Ottoman" with the heat exchanger and the clearly misplaced thermocouples, to the hot cats which were measured at the output by the wrong method and which used unnecessary three phase power to confound measurements of input power and which could have been easily calibrated independently but never were. ALL typical sleight of hand, magician type behavior.


    Honest scientists who want to convince investors that the product really works DON'T DO THAT!



    Did you notice how Rossi always controlled everything that ended up happening in an experiment? Even the calibrations? And how he took active part in every one of them? I would find it difficult to understand if all of this got past Dr. Qin with her experience, education and background. I suspect that this is why she left IH. Rat. Sinking ship. So to speak.

    Re: Penon/testimony: I have further refreshed my recollection. IIRC, Penon was originally a cross-defendant, but was dismissed because he was out of the country and unavailable to serve. Interesting to see how court will address issue of service declining defendant showing up to testify (and thereby making himself subject to service by IH). As to whether or not he could make some sort of special appearance, thereby not waving jurisdiction for service - not going to work. He shows up, he is available for service.

    Is not Penon's "unavailability" central to your case? That is what you led with.

    Mats wrote "The Impossible Invention". Maybe you should write "The Nuclear Magician Scoundrel" so that people have both sides in their hands when they read up on this material. Someone should be making money off this fiasco.

    Quote from woodworker

    Re: Penon/testimony: I have further refreshed my recollection. IIRC, Penon was originally a cross-defendant, but was dismissed because he was out of the country and unavailable to serve. Interesting to see how court will address issue of service declining defendant showing up to testify (and thereby making himself subject to service by IH). As to whether or not he could make some sort of special appearance, thereby not waving jurisdiction for service - not going to work. He shows up, he is available for service.

    I used to be a process server. It's not that hard to evade service. It's also not that hard to refile a court case to sue someone, so I would expect IH's lawyers to sue Penon if what you say is the case. They don't have to make him a codefendant. They just sue him separately and anything he says under oath in court is admissible in their case against him. But he probably doesn't have much money, so he's not much of a legal target. It would just be a maneuver.

    Quote from maryyugo

    Each time, Rossi was told on his blog and by people talking to him (Jed Rothwell for example) EXACTLY how to improve the test and to make it credible. He NEVER, not ONCE, followed that advice.

    No one can tell Rossi how to do anything. I have met mercurial inventors like that.


    Quote from maryyugo

    ALL typical sleight of hand, magician type behavior. Honest scientists who want to convince investors that the product really works DON'T DO THAT!

    Ross is not a scientist. He's a businessman thoroughly acquainted with the fact that people will do their best to steal his IP, and in the past people have stolen his IP. His actions match that of a con man but they also match that of a mercurial & paranoid inventor. Rossi initially didn't even want to do ANY demos unless it was to paying customers. But his friend Focardi was dying of cancer and wanted the recognition.


    Here's what I don't understand. He was demonstrating a COP > 10 much of the time. How do you fake that much heat? Surely if it was really COP <1 then the damned thing would barely feel warm. Even the most pedestrian observer would notice such a severe lack of claimed heat.

    Quote from [email protected]

    Is not Penon's "unavailability" central to your case? That is what you led with.


    No, the unavailability of Penon is not central to my opinions. It is the fraud perpetrated by Rossi re fake company, fake documents.


    Imagine if you will the examination of Rossi by Jones Day (or a portion thereof):


    JD: Isn't it correct that you pushed IH to move the test to Florida, stating that there was a company that wanted to use the heat produced and that such a demonstration would be a huge commercial boost (or words to that effect)?


    JD: Isn't it correct that your lawyer expressly and explicitly stated to IH that neither he nor you had any interest in, control over or involvement in that company?


    JD: Isn't it correct that your lawyer formed that company (IIRC) and that you controlled that company?


    JD: So you lied to IH?


    JD: If it wasn't a lie, what do you call it?


    JD: Why did you lie to IH?


    JD: Did this "independent" company use the heat allegedly produced by your device? What, you don't know what they used the heat allegedly produced? How can that be, you control that company?


    JD: What product was this "independent" company manufacturing? What, you don't know what product they were allegedly making? How can that be, you control that company?


    JD: Please explain these invoices to us. Please explain these emails to us asking one of your confederates (objection, yada yada yada) to make up these invoices.


    JD: Were the products/materials listed in these invoices ever actually ordered from third parties? What, no, are you saying that you don't know/don't remember?


    JD: Please explain your relationship to the named CEO of this "independent" company?


    Please note that none of these are technical/scientific/engineering questions that could be construed to or are likely to confuse a jury. These are questions that a jury will easily understand. These questions are intended to and will make the jury think: Did you lie, why did you lie and, once you are proven to be a liar, why should we, the jury, believe you now?


    I am sure that Jones Day has binders and binders of such and similar questions for Rossi and all of his potential witnesses.


    Also, if anyone has the information handy, when and where was Penon deposed, who took his deposition and do we have a copy? Thanks in advance.

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