Carl Page on LENR

It's noteworthy that Carl Page, brother of Eric Page of Google, is blogging about this. I suspect Page has read Beaudette or Storms or both, which are both good summaries. As a result, though, Page's description repeats an inadequately verified claim that is found in those summaries and that was repeated here ad infinitum, about conversion of deuterium to helium. One cannot expect more of someone who is merely reading at a high level and summarizing what he's reading. Perhaps if Carl Page and Bill Gates are showing interest, there is a larger network of people who are taking interest as well that we're not seeing directly.

The blog post also seems a little optimistic: the assumption is that LENR can be harnessed to do useful work, but this might not be the case, and it may instead remain a laboratory curiosity for a long time.

Quote from Eric Walker

I suspect Page has read Beaudette or Storms or both, and his summary repeats many of the inadequately verified tropes that are found in those summaries and that were repeated here ad infinitum, about conversion of deuterium to helium and so on.

Oh come now. The helium ratio was confirmed by Miles, McKubre and many Italian researchers. It may not be 100% certain but it is a well established observation, not a "trope." It is adequately verified. A similar observation in some other area of science would be accepted by all scientists.

Quote from JedRothwell

Oh come now. The helium ratio was confirmed by Miles, McKubre and many Italian researchers. It may not be 100% certain but it is a well established observation, not a "trope." It is adequately verified. A similar observation in some other area of science would be accepted by all scientists.

I edited it to be "claim" instead of trope. It's nowhere near as certain a claim as Storms or others make it out to be. When people press this particular detail, they undermine confidence in their objectivity. It most assuredly would not be accepted by all scientists in another area of science.

Quote from Eric Walker

I edited it to be "claim" instead of trope. It's nowhere near as certain a claim as Storms or others make it out to be.

I disagree. See:

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax, "Replicable cold fusion experiment: heat/helium ratio"

http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0574.pdf

Miles, M., et al., "Correlation of excess power and helium production during D2O and H2O electrolysis using palladium cathodes." J. Electroanal. Chem., 1993. 346: p. 99

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMcorrelatio.pdf

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJintroducti.pdf

The Miles papers are interesting and suggestive but far from conclusive. Scientists in another field would not all or even mostly draw the conclusion from them that there must be conversion of deuterium to helium. I cannot comment on Abd's helium paper, which I have not read, but I've read perhaps 50 pages from him over the years on the energy/4He ratio, and his analysis has been tendentious from the start. There is the persistent risk in this field of tentative conclusions needing lots of follow-up being hardened into purportedly obvious ones.

"Climate collapse demands a supply of energy that is far cheaper than fossil fuels"

Thinking human beings cannot let this insult to our intelligence pass without comment. "CLIMATE COLLAPSE"? First they called it "global warming". That didn't work for long because it stopped getting warmer in 1998. Then they started talking about "climate change" and Al Gore desperately came up with the term "climate disruption." Now adding "climate collapse" to the mix of group-think insanity is too much. This is not "off-topic" because it is a silly and evil phrase used by the main man in question that the thread is about. It is silly for obvious reasons and it is evil because the propagation of such a phrase causes hysteria and foolish energy policy that does far more harm than good. Thinking people have to rebel against such a bandwagon to hell that has become a religion so extremely divorced from science that it is a cult of pure anti-science. There is nothing wrong or unusual about Earth's current average temperatures, and there are no more storms, floods, or droughts than usual. Weather is always changing because it is gaseous and fluid, unlike a rock. If we can get LENR to work it would be great, but we need LENR for 101 reasons other than the make-believe, hallucinatory "climate collapse" motivation. We have to get a grip on ourselves and stop mistaking bandwagons, political gimmicks, economic scams, new age religion, and junk science for hire for real science.

As a scientific theory, man made climate change due to atmospheric carbon dioxide levels has as many loopholes as a rodeo, and is about as accurate as astrology. It has succeeded in the marketplace of ideas only because it makes such a compelling story, a new age replacement for Christianity with Mother Nature on the cross instead of Jesus. Can you imagine Albert Einstein branding anyone who does not believe in his theories "traitors," "heretics," and "deniers"? If we don’t do what the priests of climate change say, we will all burn in the hell of global warming. Scientists, reporters, politicians, and renewable energy companies are all making money and gaining power by promoting an idea that is contradicted by the provable facts.

Please watch *Climate Hysteria on YouTube at

Dear Friends,
The EDGE questions are predictive- this info was published on Jan 2, 2016
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.r…sage-and-info-second.html

and was much discussed then

peter

Welcome, Christopher Calder. You're new here — why don't you look around, read through some of the threads and get to know this place before downvoting.

Your diatribe on climate change is just that — an unhinged diatribe. I am on the fence as to whether to issue you a warning or not to avoid the topic. I have seen other forums derailed for days and weeks on end as people battle over this issue. I do not want that to happen here.

Quote from Christopher Calder

Thinking human beings cannot let this insult to our intelligence pass without comment. "CLIMATE COLLAPSE"? First they called it "global warming". That didn't work for long because it stopped getting warmer in 1998.

Nope. It did not stop getting warmer. Plus it is getting warmer at a much faster rate than anytime in the last 20,000 years. The xkcd comic strip has an excellent illustration of this:

http://xkcd.com/1732/

Scroll down to the bottom.

(For those of you not familiar with it, xkcd is the go-to comic for intelligent geeks.)

Quote from Eric Walker

The Miles papers are interesting and suggestive but far from conclusive. Scientists in another field would not all or even mostly draw the conclusion from them that there must be conversion of deuterium to helium.

Oh come now. In other disciplines they buy statistical proof of claims with far lower s/n ratios than this. As Miles points out on p. 45, there is an "overwhelming probability against random errors" of 1 in 1,574,402 chances.

Claims in high energy physics such as the top quark finding are entirely statistical in nature, so they are no strangers to this kind of proof.

Plus, the findings have been independently replicated by others, not just Miles.

"climate collapse" Where is our climate? Our climate is our atmosphere. Where is our atmosphere? Our atmosphere is largely in the sky. What does "climate collapse" mean? Literally, it means the sky is falling. Is that a joke? Why even post the words of someone who utters such nonsense? All of my arguments are rational, not religious, and I show proofs in a compilation video that I hope people will take the time to view. When people turn an idea into a religion, they become intolerant of anyone who disagrees with that religion.

Quote from Christopher Calder

this insult to our intelligence... group-think insanity... silly and evil phrase... causes hysteria... Thinking people have to rebel... bandwagon to hell... cult of pure anti-science... make-believe, hallucinatory... political gimmicks, economic scams, new age religion, and junk science for hire... as accurate as astrology... a new age replacement for Christianity.. priests of climate change... burn in the hell of global warming.

Quote from Christopher Calder

When people turn an idea into a religion, they become intolerant of anyone who disagrees with that religion.

Which would be the complete opposite of your entirely rational views on the situation, one presumes?

Eric,
Your comment about the claim being less than conclusive seems to me to be more related to the level of funding LENR has been able to achieve than the weakness of the supporting data.

If the LENR world was a well funded research program then I would expect the effort to find the D=D He connection to be much better researched and documented. As I understand it that is expensive and somewhat difficult to accomplish so those with limited budgets, which the most of the research going on, focus on other aspects.

Tom Carey

Quote from Tcarey

Your comment about the claim being less than conclusive seems to me to be more related to the level of funding LENR has been able to achieve than the weakness of the supporting data.

I do not seek to argue against a conclusion of conversion of deuterium to helium at this point. My position is that there's not enough evidence to conclude the helium in some PdD experiments comes from such a process. There is supporting evidence for such a conclusion, but it's inconclusive, to put it mildly. There could be other sources of helium that produce on the same order of energy per helion: alpha decay together with fission of heavier elements, for one. If, as you suggest, it's merely a matter of funding, then the science is at a loggerheads until the funding comes in, and in the meantime we just have people's preferences. I suggest, however, that it's not that simple, and that it's good to withhold judgment until all of the evidence is in, rather than assuming the conclusion one wants to get to. (In this case, many would like to assume conversion of deuterium to helium.)

Reasonable people can and do disagree on this topic. But that indicates to me that what is needed is more experimentation.

Quote from Eric Walker

I do not seek to argue against a conclusion of conversion of helium to deuterium at this point. My position is that there's not enough evidence to conclude the helium in some PdD experiments comes from such a process. There is supporting evidence for such a conclusion, but it's inconclusive, to put it mildly. There could be other sources of helium that produce on the same order of energy per helium: alpha decay together with fission of heavier elements, for one.

@Eric Walker: I suppose you read the sono-fusion papers! The explanation that alpha decay delivers the reported energy is just phantasy. He4 was reported up 0.5% content in the outgas and perfectly correlates.

Just forget your old claims. It's better to wake up in the right part of the science world. Just believe me ITER and other large money sinks will soon be drained...

Quote from Tcarey

If the LENR world was a well funded research program then I would expect the effort to find the D=D He connection to be much better researched and documented. As I understand it that is expensive and somewhat difficult to accomplish so those with limited budgets . . .

That is correct. Helium detection calls for expensive equipment, as you see from this slide from the ENEA:

http://lenr-canr.org/?page_id=187#PhotosENEAFrascati

Years ago, someone said to me something like: "When you visit a cold fusion experiment, if the researcher does not want to measure helium, you should carry a helium detector in your pocket and attach it when he is not looking." This person had no idea what a helium detector suitable for cold fusion looks like, and no idea how difficult it is to "attach" an instrument to an experiment. An experiment has to be designed from the ground up to include helium detection. If you include this, you have to forgo many other diagnostics. Also, the amounts of helium are small. Mel Miles told me that if he touches the flange of his stainless steel cell, he will add more helium contamination to it from his fingerprint than the experiment generates.