Cold fusion (?) device based on high voltage pulses introduced to membrane for reverse osmosis

  • Interesting cold fusion (?) device based on high voltage & frequency pulses introduced to membrane for reverse osmosis with COP > 120. Device is able to heat 500 grams of water from 22 ° C - 93 ° C during 720 seconds with using of battery input 1.7 Watts. Average life-time of membrane is 35 minutes. YT videos 1, 2. This device wetted my interest, as it show the way, how to do plasma electrolysis without actually doing a plasma. As you can imagine, during plasma electrolysis lotta energy gets wasted for formation of vapor film at the electrode and its ionization. This film is necessary for reaching sufficiently high electrostatic gradient, but its formation costs lotta energy. In addition, high frequency spikes are formed with less or more random interruption of arc discharge by cooling of film, which isn't apparently the way, in which the optimal frequency and voltage could be adjusted easily and preciselly.



    The main secret of this device is apparently the semipermeable membrane used. The usage of deionized water of lowest conductivity as possible is reccomended, asi would enable to localize the electrostatic potential and avoid shortcuts. The voltage used is AC only without any DC component and from audioanalysis of video it seems, the frequency used is somewhere around 10 kHz. Such a voltage can be generated easily with AC source for ozonizers. Bellow is commonly accessible wholesale kit for reverse osmosis, IMO it could be directly used as an improvised reactor, once you solve the removal of excessive heat produced in it. Membrane must be kept wet after first usage, or it could be destroyed during drying.

  • It should be pointed out, that this device may not actually work on cold fusion principle. In 2007 radio-engineer John Kanzius developed an apparatus for cancer treatment by polarized radiowaves in 13 MHz frequency range. During desalination tests of his device with tube filled by marine watter (~ 3% solution of NaCl) he observed an evolution of hydrogen, which can be ignited by lighter (video 1, 2). Experiments were confirmed and replicated (1, 2) by Rustum Roy, a materials scientist at Pennsylvania State University. During it the excess of energy has been also observed and the production of hydrogen did run with higher than Faradaic efficiency reportedly.


    In 1982, a team of chemists at Western Illinois University reported the room-temperature decomposition of water vapour into hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen using radio frequency waves with around 60 percent yield [S Roychowdhury et al, Plasma Chem. Plasma Process., 1982, 2, 157]. They too used precisely the same frequency of 13.56 MHz - no coincidence really, since this is a common frequency for radio frequency generators. And in 1993 a Russian team reported the apparent dissociation of water into hydrogen and hydroxyl radicals using microwaves[V L Vaks et al, Radiophys. Quantum Electron. 1994, 37, 85]. Neither paper was cited by Kanzius and Roy.

  • Device is able to heat 500 grams of water from 22 ° C - 93 ° C during 720 seconds with using of battery input 1.7 Watts.



    @Zephir: There might be a slight calculation error: 4 1.5V Cells can store between 6-9 Watt-hours, which could heat 1/2 liter by about max 13 degrees. Thus a COP would need a carefull evaluation ( real watts used).


    The device itself looks like a sonofusion cooker well known from the Stringham experiments. To use cavities (a membrane is a mass of cavities) to enhanse sono-fusion is a good idea, because in open sonofusion you need much of the input energy to produce the reaction cavitities. I guess the frequency used, is well matched with the size (diameter) of the cavity.


    Very promizing!

  • The video is great: slick and just like a magicians trick!


    But of course we are trying to evaluate this as science. Before any analysis:
    (1) If this things works as billed it is bomb-proof and will get this guy a Nobel Prize etc pretty quickly. Maybe he does not want such acclaim, but if he is not by now very famous it leads me to suspect there must be some issue with this experiment.
    (2) I'm no good at detecting magic tricks. Therefore if there is any subterfuge here i would not find it. Based on (1), i'd expect there is such, or else we have a major announcement very soon :)


    Analysis:
    (1) ammeter measurement should be ignored since in presence of HF pulses that type of instrument will give highly erroneous readings. (This is not the classic RMS vs average issue, but the fact that RFI kills ammeters)
    (2) total energy available from 4XAAA cells = 20kJ (as W says above)
    (3) total energy needed to heat up 500g water is 2kJ/K. So we have max 10C rise from these batteries


    Caveats (and remember I'm no good at magic, so I'm probably missing the obvious one):

    • Liquid might contain chemical reactants that heat it up
    • Coil device might contain batteries (unlikely IMO, but can't rule out)
    • Thermometers might be much more sensitive than claimed - so actual rise is not more than 10C.


    THH

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      If this things works as billed it is bomb-proof and will get this guy a Nobel Prize etc pretty quickly

      Negative - Fleischmann and Pons device also works, and none of them got some Nobel prize after thirty years. Instead of it, a much more common situation is, the inventors of such things are ridiculed and ostracized.

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      ammeter measurement should be ignored since in presence of HF pulses that type of instrument will give highly erroneous readings

      Ammeter measures the current in DC part of circuit, not the HF/HV one.

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      So we have max 10C rise from these batteries

      Correct. Which is why this device looks so interesting. 8)

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      Coil device might contain batteries

      So that we could have max 20C rise from all these batteries. Still not a big deal...

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      Liquid might contain chemical reactants that heat it up

      The typical boiler noise produced with reactor indicates the source of localized concentrated heat instad.

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      Thermometers might be much more sensitive than claimed - so actual rise is not more than 10C.

      A pair of different alcohol-type thermometers has been used. Wouldn't be easier to just immerse a heater into water during videotaping pause?

  • To answer these points:


    The big one. This demo as billed has clearly broken conservation of energy by 500% closed system with no calibration or assumptions needed. F&P experiments never did that, or anything like. To say that scientists would ignore this is both highly impolite and just wrong. It is true that most would react as I've done, and reckon it is probably a magic trick. But, this experiment is easily checkable under third party conditions and it would not require any money, nor much effort, to check this was for real in any lab. There would be many people willing to do that, and once we had some credible third party validation the thing would spread with bigger better validators taking an interest.


    As for the others. This is not a competition to see what is the most likely error mode. Given my point about magic there is no way from this video that any positive conclusions can be drawn. If this guy is forthcoming he'd find third party testers.


    Just a few points:

    • Nothing prevents some localised boiling (and it could be nucleation from a reaction) so this is no argument against reactants
    • Coil device could contain high energy density batteries, in theory could be a big deal, as I said in practice not likely
    • I did not mention the liquid. If alcohol we have only half of energy needed for any given temperature rise. So that is another thing to remember :)
    • I don't quite understand your point about thermometers. If one thermometer can be mislabelled so can another...
  • The typical boiler noise produced with reactor indicates the source of localized concentrated heat instad.


    The big one. This demo as billed has clearly broken conservation of energy by 500% closed system with no calibration or assumptions needed.


    Zephir_AWT : What about digging out this guys receipt? And provide it to mfp? We would be eager to see a working sono-fusion device with COP > 4!

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    To say that scientists would ignore this is both highly impolite and just wrong.

    At first, I haven't promise, they would ignore it, at second, the link is three years old, so that they already did it.. ;) I'm the first one, who is reporting about it here.

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    I couldn't find in your description what the electrodes are made of. Do you know offhand

    IMO it actually doesn't matter, I'd would just avoid the iron, chromium steel or some other less noble metals, the precipitate of which fouls and expands the pores of reverse osmosis membranes and thus destroying them. As you can also see, they're pretty well insulated along whole their length, as the shortucuts would decrease the efficiency of the process. You wouldn't want to conduct electricity across bulk of water, only through the membrane sample inside the reactor.

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    We would be eager to see a working sono-fusion device with COP > 4

    IMO this device doesn't work on sonofusion principle, as the pores of reverse osmosis membranes are too small for every bubble thinkable. IMO it tears the water molecules appart and accelerates their fragments along membrane channels.

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    Would be interesting to see MFMP or LFH attempt an exact replication.

    This device is apparently suitable for replication in way wider circles than just MFMP or LFH. I'll definitelly attempt for its replication too.

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    We have the membranes, at least


    I have few of them at home too. The nice point about commercial reverse osmosis membranes is, they're already designed pretty well like the heat exchanger. In addition, they enable to insulate electrical inputs each other very well. The drawback is, they have high surface area. In the above demo, just one square centimeter of membrane is able to work with 2 Watt input. Whereas even the smallest commercial units have surface area by many orders of magnitude larger - around 0.45 m2 i.e. 4.500 cm2. One of possible solution is to use the filter unit in its original form, but to load it in pulsed regime with duty cycle within range 1:100 to 1:1000. The commercially avialable power sources of carbon dioxide lasers are able to manage it with TTL logic.


  • Zephir_AWT, thanks again for the interesting links. Btw, several of the links are broken, and at least one passage comes unattributed from this source.


    Regarding the Kanzius device, which splits salt water using radio waves:

    • This might be LENR.
    • Radio waves are (very approximately) in the meV to peV, and water has a bond energy of 5.7 eV, so there is an interesting mystery as to how there could be water dissociation (maybe DAK or Kirk Shanahan can comment).
    • Here is a throwaway possibility for LENR: the radio waves induce electron capture in 22Na, and the 88 eV Auger electrons that follow lead to bond dissociation in nearby water molecules. Here the assumption is that the 1274 keV gamma from the de-exciting Ne daughter is somehow avoided. (Or maybe not. This gamma should at any rate be sought.)

    IMO it actually doesn't matter, I'd would just avoid the iron, chromium steel or some other less noble metals, the precipitate of which fouls and expands the pores of reverse osmosis membranes and thus destroying them.


    We could only conclude that the electrode composition in the reverse-osmosis device doesn't matter, or that avoiding iron, chromium steel or other less noble metals is important, if we had prior theoretical biases about what must be going on in the system. But at any rate a replicator will need this information to do a careful replication.

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    so there is an interesting mystery as to how there could be hydrogen dissociation

    It's explained here. I use this system like the molecular analogy of cold fusion collisions (which run at the level of atom nuclei) - even the ratio of energy is similar. We can observe the splitting of water molecules, requiring activation energy of about 1,3 eV by radiowave frequency energy density range (13 MHz) - i.e. 5.10E-8 eV). This is the same ratio of energy density, like inducing cold fusion requiring 10 MeV for activation by electrochemical potential 1.23 eV within palladium cell. Both these phenomena can have similar high-level mechanism and I presume, the water molecules get arranged along a narrow lines within the pores of membrane, which allows to collide them in similar way, like the atom nuclei arranged along lines within crystal lattices.

  • It's explained here. I use this system like the molecular analogy of cold fusion collisions (which run at the level of atom nuclei) - even the ratio of energy is similar. We can observe the splitting of water molecules, requiring activation energy of about 1,3 eV by radiowave frequency energy density range (13 MHz) - i.e. 5.10E-8 eV).



    @Zephir_AWT: Sorry all links are more or less broken: Can you try to find an actual source?? Please!

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    That is not a logically correct inference!

    Why not? The scientists should look for all possible sources of inspiration of future progress - in the same way, like me. They're even payed for it with compare to me.
    Wyttenbach : source for what? I could give you a specific answer, if you put the specific question.

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    Why not? The scientists should look for all possible sources of inspiration of future progress - in the same way, like me. They're even payed for it with compare to me.


    Because you assume:
    (1) that this demo was presented to scientists in a form they could derive information from (as a working third party testable setup)
    (2) that (if it was so presented and accepted) it worked when tested third party


    Without both those things true your inference does not hold and it is an example of how sloppy logic can distort the arguments about LENR.

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    that this demo was presented to scientists in a form they could derive information from


    Above you can see the information, which I derived from it. IMO it contains everything necessary for replication testing.
    I don't understad your remark about third party test. The scientists are supposed to be that party instead.

  • Wyttenbach : I see... As far I'm concerned, John Kanzius published two papers (1, 2) in cooperation with famous scientist Dr. Rustum Roy.


    The second published paper describes how having confirmed the observation on YouTube (3, 4) in John Kanzius’ lab in Erie, Philadelphia, the radiation source was brought to Roy’s microwave lab at Penn State University for a series of experiments. The maximum power for most experiments was about 300 W and the frequency of the polarized radio frequency beam was in the range of 13.56 MHz. The radio wave was aimed at pyrex test tubes containing solutions of 0.1 to 30 percent salt (NaCl), held upright by a Teflon stand and individually introduced into the RF (radio frequency) cavity. The gases at the top of the liquid surface were lit by means of a lighter. The solutions typically sustained a continuous flame till the water was exhausted. The temperature of the flame was about 1 800 C.


    At 3 percent NaCl (about sea water concentration), the results presented in the YouTube were confirmed. Larger flame sizes of about 4-5 inches were obtained with higher salt concentrations. Immediately after the power is turned on, the flammable gas can be ignited, and it extinguishes instantly as the power is turned off. The smallest flame was sustained at 1 percent NaCl (see figure bellow). They also showed that the Raman spectrum of the saline solutions before and after exposure to RF field differ dramatically in the 3000 to 3500 cm-1 region indicating that the structure of the water after exposure to the RF field has been very substantially changed, specifically with respect to the O-H bond.



    Burning water at different NaCl concentrations; a, 0.3 percent; b, 3.0 percent; c, 30 percent


    Electrolytic splitting of water is well-known. But, as first demonstrated by Faraday, it takes >1.23V to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The 13.56 MHz RF beam delivers at most 10-8 of the energy required. What is also striking for me is the size of flame produced with input RF power just 300 Watts. IMO the flame generated provides more energy and this impression was later confirmed with John Kanzius himself without exact COP numbers given. He died of leukemia in 2009, so he unfortunatelly didn't manage to finish his work.

  • Microwave distillation process produces water of reportedly healing properties, which corrodes plastic and stainless steel..



    Inventor Steve Sedlmayr was tired of his wife’s water distillation units breaking. Frustrated with their poor design, he decided to insert a 2.54 GHz microwave antenna directly into a water distillation vessel. To his surprise, multiple distillations of the same water resulted in unusually corrosive and/or healing properties of this water: those drinking his microwave-distilled waters began to report surprising healing effects, but he found he could not store the water in plastic bottles and, in fact, even the plastic tubing he was using in his condenser unit appeared to get eaten away by this water. Yet, it was just… water! How could this be?


    Note that the John Kanzius device doesn't actually split water into a hydrogen and oxygen, as this mixture (so-called the Brown gas) is highly explosive and it definitelly doesn't burn with quiet incandescent flame. I presume, it splits the water into hydrogen and peroxide radicale insted. Peroxide radicale recombines into a hydrogen peroxide, which has higher boiling point, so it remains in solution and only hydrogen escapes. Hydrogen peroxide is reactive and it has oxidation properties, which could explain the corrosive action on plastic tubing and possibly the steel. But such a splitting is interesting the more, as the mixture of hydrogen and peroxide radical shouldn't form side-to-side during single reaction, as first component is of reductive and later one of oxidative nature. I'm explaining it with equilibrial conditions of reaction in similar way, like the formation of hellium-4 during cold fusion.

  • 300 watts of Rf isn't trivial and could generated hundreds of volts depending on the impedance and SWR of the "circuit" the Rf generator was being coupled into, whether the conductor was a copper wire or salt water. The "flame" in this case could simply be a plasma of ions pumped by the Rf field, a conductive part of the circuit including the saline solution.

  • Hi Mike — interesting ideas. The flames looked like burning off-gas, and not simply a plasma of ions, e.g., like you would see in glow discharge. Take a look at the videos and see if you agree. One thing that is curious to me, though, is that a hydrogen flame is more or less invisible (and for this reason dangerous), whereas the flames in the videos were orange.

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    The "flame" in this case could simply be a plasma of ions pumped by the Rf field, a conductive part of the circuit including the saline solution.


    The plasma couldn't be ignited by lighter and it's temperature would be higher than 1800 °C. It's not clear for me, where the hydrogen gets generated from solution, though. The existing photos exhibit no bubble formation.



    On the other hand, the length of test tube must be tuned with respect to the wavelength of incoming radiation (so that very local concentration of energy may occur there) and the water must be conductive - the deionized water doesn't work - only the salty solutions. So that your theory has still some merit. Maybe the resulting flame is the result of both effects, which also makes it more stable and bigger. At any case it seems, the standing waves can introduce multiparticle collisions and breaking of water molecules, which get the easier, the more the water molecules remain arranged in long chains, like inside the narrow channels and pores.

  • Note that the John Kanzius device doesn't actually split water into a hydrogen and oxygen, as this mixture (so-called the Brown gas) is highly explosive and it definitelly doesn't burn with quiet incandescent flame.


    Zephir_AWT : The most important finding is the Rahman measuring of the 25% reduced intensity of the H-O stretch bond (after microwave 2.45 Ghz distilled) - which lasted more than 7 hours!. This clearly shows that water physics is not yet completely understood. It also is a clear indication that water can exhibit certain memory effects. (As e.g. show in the Krasnoholevet paper.)


    Month ago we also saw a paper which shows that the "effective water bond" is H1.5O instead of H2O. Measured with an exact slow neutron beam. This is an other indication that water can form complex structures, which can resonate a many different frequencies.

  • The 20 meter ham band is in the 14 MHz freq range,
    a quarter wave (good length for resonant things like antenna and cavities),
    is still a whopping 5 meters,
    still H field coupling can make conductors red hot,


    i suggest that that the "match" is a starter plasma that gets the salt water fumes ionized for additional heating by Rf,