Alan,

I apologize, I have asked to take this off forum. You are kind enough to let the words stand and move to the playground, but, I will delete them if you wish. Just let me know.

I have removed the OT thread response and moved to the playground, we will get off site if possible, but it is not my call at this time.

Estes Park Advanced Propulsion Workshop (September 2016) Proceedings are finally available freely on the SSI website:

http://ssi.org/2016-breakthrough-propulsion-proceedings/

Many papers on the EmDrive included, from Paul March, Martin Tajmar, José Rodal. Jean-Philippe-Montillet, from the École Polytechnique Fédérale, Lausanne, Switzerland, presented a paper entitled:

Theory of the EM Drive in TM mode based on Mach-Lorentz theory

Located pages 111–125 in the proceedings. The paper describes the EmDrive propulsion force as a Mach effect. To summarize Montillet's work:

The RF resonant cavity thruster would act as a capacitor where surface currents propagate inside the cavity on the conic wall, between the two end plates; electromagnetic resonant modes create electric charges on each end plate; a Mach effect is triggered by Lorentz forces from surface currents on the conic wall; and a thrust force arise in the RF cavity, due to the variation of the electromagnetic density from evanescent waves inside the skin layer. When a polymer insert is placed asymmetrically in the cavity, its dielectric properties result in greater asymmetry, while decreasing the cavity Q factor. The cavity's acceleration is a function of all the above factors, and the model can explain the acceleration of the cavity with and without a dielectric.

IMO EMDrive is device, where high-dimensional aspects of space-time manifest itself. The high-dimensional phenomena can be observed/described from multiple observational perspectives of 4D space-time, therefore for description of EMDrive multiple theories may apply and these theories would be related each other.

From perspective of the water-surface analogy of the EMDrive IMO the most relevant is the Annilla's theory, which considers the partial materialization of photons of the opposite spin under formation of lightweight "dark matter" particles - scalar waves, which are ejected from EMDrive as a reactive effect. The indicia of such stream of particle were given with Juday-White "warp field" interferometer. This theory is based on momentum balance, Newton laws and Noether theorems - the scalar waves escaping from EMDrive generate the thrust here.

In dense aether model the spontaneous change of the mass must be always balanced with some radiation, because it's sorta matter wave refraction effect. But if we neglect it, we could achieve the thrust simply with considering the change of the mass of photons along EMDrive resonator, which would be followed with change of wavelength. This is the group of more simplistic models supported with Shawyer and McCulloch. McCulloch theory achieves the change of inertia with shielding of Unruh radiation, which would have similar effects, like the emanation of scalar waves and it should be also detectable with Juday-White interferometer. So far so good...

In Annila's theory the photon must be of the opposite spin for being able to interact itself. IMO they must have opposite orbital angular momentum, which introduces additional energy into photons, which travels with reference frame of photon and which increases their mass, not just momentum. The photons can gain such a mass by their polarization, but this effect is quite minute, in addition, it still applies to photons which aren't connected with reference frame of EMDrive, as they're flying inside it freely. But recently it has been found, that the effect of polarization to the mass of photons can be heavily pronounced, if we apply it to photons which are already coupled to metal surface in form of surface plasmons.

And this is just the point, in which Shawyer's theory gets common ground with Mach effect based theory. The Mach effect based theory is coined with Prof. Woodward and others and it proposes, not the photons, but the EMDrive directly gains mass by periodic introduction of energy into one end. The coupling of microwave photons with EMDrive surface would provides the basis for this effect, but it also means, that the internal surface, not the bulk volume are significant for this effect. In this respect it may be significant, that Cannae drive of de Fetta increases the effectiveness of thrust with elimination the length and bulk volume of resonator on behalf of its internal surface.

The third group of theories could therefore consider the EMDrive as the elongated AC version of Biefeld-Brown capacitor, which is completely flat, it's just asymmetric in the sense of electric field intensity. Note that later versions of Woodward drive also utilized the charged capacitors powered with AC current in the role of the device, which is changing its mass periodically, yet they applied the Mach theory for it. In dense aether model the principle of their function is somewhat different though, as the charged capacitor hosts the Dirac fermions, which interact with ZPE fluctuations like the paddle. You may see the connection point with McCulloch's shielding theory here again, because paddle must also serve as a shielding element and it will eject the stream of particles in opposite direction.

The boundary between both models probably represents the length of resonator: once it gets smaller than the wavelenght of CMBR, then the asymmetric capacitor "paddle" model applies - otherwise the reactive "scalar wave rocket" models become more relevant. The Mach effect based models fall somehow between both these two boundary cathegories - but we should realize, that both rocket, both paddle model require also changing mass in this way or another. Whereas for me it's not difficult to imagine all of it together, for deterministically thinking physicists (which indeed favor well defined models) the EMDrive will be probably remain source of conceptual confusion in similar way, like the cold fusion and/or overunity effects.

Zephir,

I did not see in the links any reference to photons acquiring mass by their polarization. Please provide a better reference.

Which ones please? The slowing of light implies the increase of the mass of photons because of special relativity. The separation of the speed of photons from speed of light wave is possible easily, because the photons are the (quantum) solitons of Maxwell waves, not these waves itself (if they would, we could use the same equations for their description - but we already know, Maxwell's theory doesn't support quantization). Both they can propagate with different speed easily.

Well that first link just goes back to your site. Then it is AWT related, so to me I can not relate. The Annillas link was good and informational but not related to photons acquiring mass directly only indirectly. The third link which has mass by polarization I had a lot of hope for but mass again was not cited in the article. The last link was just a jpg of the cannae drive.

You know I think you have helped me and Axil and possibly yourself by making all of us improve our references. This is a good thing.

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Well that first link just goes back to your site. Then it is AWT related, so to me I can not relate.

Every explanation follows some logic or analogies and it's impossible to explain why and how the photons can gain mass without some unorthodox theory, because in all mainstream theories the photons are massless (just because the physicists naively confuse the Maxwell waves - which are indeed transverse and massless - with photons, which are solely different concept and which contain 2-spin component of EM field). The experimental links related to gaining mass of photons with polarization are these three ones 1, 2, 3.

Zephir,

Link 1 and 2-spin component are locked. Link 2 and 3 do not mention "photons acquiring mass by their polarization". I am just trying to understand that sentence. I do not know if you are talking about inertial mass, refraction, doppler shift, gravity which all slow light down. How does polarization acquire mass?

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How does polarization acquire mass?

The electromagnetic field inside photons can vibrate in three directions, which may or may not coincide with the direction of photon propagation. The common field vibrations contribute only slightly to the relativist mass of photon, because they increase intrinsic momentum and energy of photon, but not energy density. But after then the photon can gain spin angular momentum and orbital angular momentum. In dense aether model the spin angular momentum increases the relativistic inertia of photon and makes it massive (charged half-integer spin particle), the orbital angular momentum decreases it and gives the photon 2-spin character of scalar wave with imaginary component of mass, i.e. the tachyon or magnetic monopole.

The photons can gain the spin momentum by their reflection from metallic surfaces, which I speculate is what happens inside the conical cavity of EMDrive. This process runs similar way, like the bouncing of ball from the wall under the angle: the photon will start to rotate in screw-like manner and it will propagate more slowly, because the forward velocity component EM field cannot exceed the speed of light. Therefore, if the EM field rotates during it, it must propagate slower than light as a whole, i.e. like the massive particle. This change of photon inertia within EMDrive generates the thrust for it. This theory is surprisingly old, it was even published in peer-reviewed Nature journal in 1950 and proposed for measurement of microwave intensity. Shawyer just borrowed this model for his explanation of EMDrive thrust.

Zephir,

I am sorry I am not allowed to use SCI-HUB to open your Nature link and thus have no access to papers. But I appreciate the links I am of course aware of momentum. Glad that Aether Wave fixes it.

Nature article is here, it's not difficult to Google it

I must not worked hard enough, if a link does not work I abandon it. I am just getting old I guess. Thanks for that and the funny thing is I go to that site (NSF) also but have not been in a few days. I should have worked harder. In an honest suggestion why don't you stick to a simple explanation? Like your quote above, I have read your sub-reddit. The self linking sometimes is not the best way to get across your message. If someone knows it already. Not that you may care, but AWT seems to be bedrock for you. It's not for me, try to see that point of view.

Check this out!!!

2016 BREAKTHROUGH PROPULSION WORKSHOP PROCEEDINGS

https://emdrive-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10

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I must not worked hard enough, if a link does not work I abandon it.

OK - I got it.. The people who are really interested about subject are able to find the source from much more modest indicia, than just "not working" link. Actually all my links work, they just occasionally lead into paywalled articles, which is common situation in mainstream science. I'm not here for bypassing the author rights of mainstream journals - no matter how unjustified they may look for someone. BTW I'm about to end all discussions with you, because you're trolling all my posts here with infantile evasions and thus diluting the subject.

How the EMDrive scientists

differ from LENR researchers?

Well, in no way actually. They're both represented mostly by elderly, retired chaps with low number of youngsters and women.

This is typical demographics of every frontier research outside the mainstream. Huw Price was not first, who realized it.

George Miley describes his experience from cold fusion conference:

"In a huge, grandiose convention center I found about 200 extremely conventional-looking scientists, almost all of them male and over 50. In fact some seemed over 70, and I realized why: The younger ones had bailed years ago, fearing career damage from the cold fusion stigma.

"I have tenure, so I don't have to worry about my reputation," commented physicist George Miley, 65. "But if I were an assistant professor, I would think twice about getting involved."

The fear of carrier has lead the young physicists into a collective dismissal of cold fusion. It's also lack of life experience and tendency for schematic thinking, which leads younger people into distrust of breakthrough findings. This brings the answer for question, why young revolutionars at reddit usually ignore if not dismiss all breakthrough findings, whereas the cold fusion conferences look like retirement homes for elderly seniors..

@Zephir quote "

Quote from Zephir_AWT

OK - I got it.. The people who are really interested about subject are able to find the source from much more modest indicia, than just "not working" link. Actually all my links work, they just occasionally lead into paywalled articles, which is common situation in mainstream science. I'm not here for bypassing the author rights of mainstream journals - no matter how unjustified they may look for someone. BTW I'm about to end all discussions with you, because you're trolling all my posts here with infantile evasions and thus diluting the subject.

Zephir, I hope that you get a chance to read this. I first and for most apologize for your feeling I am trolling you. I also can see your point. My rhetoric and the content of my posts have grown confrontational this past week, and I was blind and did not see that it was heading so fast that way. You were being quite polite in your responses.

I am not sure how I am evading but honestly can understand your perception of this. If it helps it was wrong but I agree that it was not unintentional, and I am now aware of it. Most of my questions are really literal, I come here to understand and learn. You have provided me with many links and thoughts. So I am sure if you let your shields down a bit, you will read a humble and sincere apology.

That above " is all that I got", and I would ask you to reread it. I have zero intention in continuing this argument , and please understand I will not block you, I am very interested in your thoughts behind your links. So I will continue to ask you questions. Even if you block me. I just want to know more. Finally if you really after reading the above think I am trolling you, just say it and I will never respond to you directly or in directly again. I want you to honestly have the last word in this.

I will assume that you are asking me not to respond to you. I will honor this, unless you write that you accept my apology. So peace.