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Quote from JedRothwell

There is absolutely no need to distribute heavy water with pipes, and it would be impossible to distribute it with any method other than tightly sealed containers with no air in them. Things like pipes are out of the question. There is no need because only a tiny bit is needed, and because it has to be sealed into the device, like battery acid. Otherwise it will be contaminated. It is hydroscopic, so it cannot be exposed to air. An automobile will use roughly 1 g per year. So you need far less than the battery acid in today's automobile. (A car battery has about 1 kg of sulphuric acid.) A kilogram of heavy water in an automobile would last 1000 years in theory, but in actual practice it will probably be contaminated after a few years, and it will have to be replaced.

I expect D2 gas will be needed, rather than D2O. Again, that can only be distributed in air-tight ultra-clean containers. Actually, I expect it will be extracted from ordinary water on site in the factories that manufacture modules for automobile engines, generators, refrigerators and other machines that use cold fusion as the primary source of energy. I expect the cold fusion device to be a sealed module designed to produce heat at a certain temperature and power level, that will be inserted into the heat engine or boiler. It will wear out after some years, and it will have to be replaced. By "wear out" I mean the deuterium will become contaminated with air leaking in. This will happen long before all of the deuterium transmutes into helium.

It would take roughly 15 tons of heavy water to produce all of the energy in the world, but I expect much more will be needed because of contamination, and because most heavy water (or D2 gas) will be left over in scrapped modules. See p. 32:

https://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

I think the price of heavy water will fall by at least a factor of 10, because most of the cost is for the energy needed to extract it. So I doubt that left-over heavy water will be cleaned up and recycled. It will probably be easier to let it evaporate and extract new heavy water. There is no danger to letting left-over heavy water evaporate. You would not want to toss it into the ground or flush it into a river because it will probably contain nanoparticles or other dangerous materials. If Pd or other precious metals are needed, the NAE metal itself will be rigorously recycled, the way lead from lead-acid batteries is recycled today. Nearly all lead is captured by modern recycling techniques.

With oil, coal, wind and other conventional energy, energy overhead is an issue. That is, the amount of energy it takes to extract and refine the fuel, or to build the dam or wind turbine. With oil, overhead is 10% to 20%. With wind it is around 2%. With cold fusion using current methods of extracting heavy water, it would be ~0.05%. (See p. 46) I expect better methods can be developed that will take less energy per gram of heavy water. You might think there is no point to saving energy in a cold fusion economy, but there would be, because low energy machines are usually smaller, quieter, cooler, more reliable, and longer lasting. For example, people will continue to use LED lights with cold fusion, rather than going back to incandescent ones, because LEDs have so many advantages other than low energy consumption.

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Thanks, What about a similar analysis for a hydrino based approach? Quantities and all faithful to the numbers released by Mills and friends.

Quote from LeBob

Thanks, What about a similar analysis for a hydrino based approach?

I do not know anything about hydrinos.

Quote from JedRothwell

I do not know anything about hydrinos.

I looked at your book and I really think you have to look at the literature. Your book is out of date with the literature. Some of this is 20+ years old literature.

pg 9

Cold fusion cannot be a chemical process because it consumes no chemical fuel

>> Not true. Hydrino catalysis proposed more than 2 decades ago and widely reproduced in journals everywhere is a chemical process.

pg 9

Richard Oriania -- most difficult (experiments) ever performed are cold fusion

>> Hydrino catalysis is easy and the US Dept. of Defense contractor ARA said they had it done for $3000 (ie. no exotic materials/manufacturing)

pg 10

modern physicists think it is too good to be true because they cannot comprehend how it could work

>> I would add LENR researchers think chemistry is "too good to be true because they cannot comprehend how it would work"

pg 12

you can definitely rule out chemistry.

>> Nope. The chemistry of hydrino catalysis is has stronger evidence (in terms of reproduceability and controls) than any LENR experiment I know of. Phillips 2004 and 2008 are gold standard, simple papers.

pg 13

This cell, like all others, had only negligible quantities of chemical fuel in it, and it did not produce any detectable chemical ash.

>> It was in contact with water and air. The ash of hydrino is not going to be found unless you know to look for it, and how to capture and characterize it with various measures.

pg 14

Cold fusion cannot be any form of chemical energy. That is completely out of the question.

>> In retrospect, the massive excesse heat is sign of likely chemical process - as nuclear processes don't have these kinetics.

I am not singling you out, but everyone in this field has not read the basic papers of the literature. Atomic hydrogen is the fuel for generating energy. The transmutations and other effects are likely coming from a hydrino pathway - and the physics of this need to be figured out.

Quote from Navid

Cold fusion cannot be any form of chemical energy. That is completely out of the question.

>> In retrospect, the massive excesse heat is sign of likely chemical process - as nuclear processes don't have these kinetics.

Mills is outdated: Physically Hydrinos are a weak nuclear bond. This bond also works in many chemical catalysts so we could call it chemical the way it can interact.

Mills can come back with his idea a soon as he can show stable versions of H(1/5) H(1/6), H(1/7) etc... what for sure will no be found.

Holmlid found some clustering between groups fo H*-H*/D*-D* such cluster can have additional bonds.

And to remind you one more time: Mills had to invent Hydrinos because Santilli sued him for the use of his toroidal Hydrogen aka H*-H*....

Wyttenbach Until everyone in the community understands why hydrogen with certain hydrino catalysts produces intense plasmas, and why with hydrogen with non-hydrino forming catalysts don't produce intense emissions - than I suspect your statement is about 10 years too early.

In terms of chemical products - you may be misleading the children that these states don't exist.

Everyone on this site should at least understand this paragraph in the context of Mills theory (even if they dont learn the whole thing) - can they?

No plasma and no emission except blackbody radiation at

long wavelengths was observed for (1) argon, neon, and

helium alone; (2) sodium, magnesium, and barium metals

alone, and (3) sodium, magnesium, and barium, with

hydrogen. No plasma formed with incandescently heated

hydrogen and each of Al(NO3)3 and Mg(NO3)2. No emission

was observed from hydrogen alone or each test material

(KNO3 and RbNO3) alone. In contrast, plasma with

VUV emission was observed from incandescently heated

hydrogen and each of KNO3 and RbNO3. No conventional

mechanism can explain the formation of a plasma by incandescently

heating hydrogen gas with the presence of

trace amounts of these inorganic compounds as discussed

previously [21].

I think it would be relevant to start at the beginning - do you agree the resonant transfer reaction is happening?

Quote from Navid

I think it would be relevant to start at the beginning - do you agree the resonant transfer reaction is happening?

I fully agree that Hydrino-like energies are resonant states of matter. But only H*/D* are long time stable.

Quote from Navid

pg 9

Cold fusion cannot be a chemical process because it consumes no chemical fuel

>> Not true. Hydrino catalysis proposed more than 2 decades ago and widely reproduced in journals everywhere is a chemical process.

I have no idea what hydrinos are, or whether they exist. I know nothing about Mills, his theories, or his experiments. So I cannot judge the situation. Mills says his effect is not cold fusion, so I do not include his work in cold fusion papers. His experiments seem complicated and unconvincing to me, but that is only an impression because I have not looked closely.

Quote from Navid

pg 9

Richard Oriania -- most difficult (experiments) ever performed are cold fusion

>> Hydrino catalysis is easy and the US Dept. of Defense contractor ARA said they had it done for $3000 (ie. no exotic materials/manufacturing)

Who do you refer to? Where was this published?

Quote from Navid

pg 10

modern physicists think it is too good to be true because they cannot comprehend how it could work

>> I would add LENR researchers think chemistry is "too good to be true because they cannot comprehend how it would work"

LENR researchers know that cold fusion is not chemical because it consumes no chemical fuel, produces no chemical changes, and it transmutes deuterium into helium in the same ratio as D-D fusion, which is fusion by definition.

Quote from Navid

pg 14

Cold fusion cannot be any form of chemical energy. That is completely out of the question.

>> In retrospect, the massive excesse heat is sign of likely chemical process - as nuclear processes don't have these kinetics.

No, as I said, there are no chemical reactions. The only reaction is D+D => He, which is fusion.

I have no idea what the hydrino reactions supposedly are, or whether they exist, but if they do not convert deuterium into helium, they are not the same as cold fusion.

Quote from Wyttenbach

I fully agree that Hydrino-like energies are resonant states of matter. But only H*/D* are long time stable.

I have to be more specific first do you believe resonant transfer reactions are plausible in nature, and two do you understand this is happening in Mills work?

Quote from JedRothwell

I have no idea what hydrinos are, or whether they exist. I know nothing about Mills, his theories, or his experiments. So I cannot judge the situation. Mills says his effect is not cold fusion, so I do not include his work in cold fusion papers. His experiments seem complicated and unconvincing to me, but that is only an impression because I have not looked closely.

Who do you refer to? Where was this published?

LENR researchers know that cold fusion is not chemical because it consumes no chemical fuel, produces no chemical changes, and it transmutes deuterium into helium in the same ratio as D-D fusion, which is fusion by definition.

No, as I said, there are no chemical reactions. The only reaction is D+D => He, which is fusion.

I have no idea what the hydrino reactions supposedly are, or whether they exist, but if they do not convert deuterium into helium, they are not the same as cold fusion.

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For decades we have a simple model (way simpler than LENR) that shows hydrino catalysts - which the LENR field accidentally discovered - and has a physical model for the reaction.

Fleischmann was informed about Mills and he just shook his head. Did nothing at all. Spent his whole life and didn't pay attention.

I'll find a paper that explains hydrino chemistry well.

https://www.villagevoice.com/1999/12/21/quantum-leap/

A really old article, well written, refers to how hydrino like resonant reactions would make nuclear reactions more likely. I still believe that a large portion of LENR positive energy results, not pushed to the point that nuclear fragments are spraying everywhere, are from these resonant catalytic chemical reactions. Actually that's the safest way to make this happen for civilians as distributed power production. LENR based energy that is mostly atomic would be useful for making practical fusion a reality and processing of nuclear waste if it works as we propose. This still would be largely centralized and wouldnt be accessible to civilians or in less stable regions of the world. The dream I have of a motorcycle/hovercraft hybrid that just keeps moving or practical micro-grids of grid feeding/absorbing vehicles and stations is more likely with "super-chemical" reactions than any form of nuclear with penitrating rays. Though LENR with penitrating rays is still spicy, quite possibly will revitalise and diversify the current nuclear industry, H* resonant formation may be a more fundamental source and benifit more people directly. So Navid how do you think a hydrino based energy grid would work with all the info available?

Hydrino gas has been introduced in gas chromotagraphs. This peak looks impressive and as far as I know ghost peaks are from contaminations. This result should not be there according to current science.

I hope they get a few labs confirming this at some point.

Quote from Shane D.

Not the first time that has been said. This is from the 1999 article LeBob just posted:

"Tests at Lehigh University are interesting, confirms Dr. Alfred Miller, a senior research scientist there who has tested BlackLight Power’s compounds. Miller probed the energy levels of the atoms by bombarding them with X rays and measuring the energy of the electrons leaving the atoms—a technique called X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. “I try and exhaust all possibilities and there really aren’t an enormous number of conventional explanations” for what he found.

Miller emphasizes that he didn’t want his tests being interpreted as unequivocally confirming the hydrino theory, but “over the years I haven’t really come across too many things that haven’t been explainable. At least if you thought about it long enough and hard enough.”

Ricerca Inc.’s lab east of Cleveland was similarly flummoxed by what it found when studying BlackLight Power’s materials. “They were inorganic compounds that have organic properties. That is unusual,” says Dr. Yong-Xi Li, manager of Ricerca’s advanced mass spectrometry lab. “We totally don’t know what’s going on. The reason is that I’ve never seen before these kinds of properties in all my career. Probably we have to do more work.”

Plenty other comments like this going back to 1991, that back Mills up. Question is: Why is the tech still in the lab, and BLP struggling to attract funding and a partner? I can't figure it out.

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I think that many characterizations is of the kind "we do not know" but the number of ways it can happen via normal science is so large that you simply cannot prove the Hydrino theory, maybe there is an unknown proper argument ..... On the other hand for this experiment the early peak is very clear. It beats hydrogene because that is the king in this early game. Also I think that being faster than hydrogen means it is smaller than hydrogen so this rules out essentially modern science. The only possible alternative is an artifact. I searched the internet hand have not found any known such case. Anyway repeating the experiment say 10 times and get the same result in 2 different labs with different equipment would quickly rule out such an artifact.

Quote from Navid

For decades we have a simple model (way simpler than LENR) that shows hydrino catalysts - which the LENR field accidentally discovered - and has a physical model for the reaction.

I don't know enough to comment. I can ask, though: Does this simple model explain the D+D => He reaction? If it doesn't explain that, it doesn't explain cold fusion. My understanding is that Mills does not think the heat from his reaction comes from D+D fusion. It comes from "shrinking hydrogen atoms" (whatever that is). He does not predict there will be helium. Therefore, assuming he is right, he is not seeing cold fusion. It is something else. So it is not "a physical model for the reaction." It is a physical model for another reaction.

Quote from Navid

I'll find a paper that explains hydrino chemistry well.

I do not understand such papers enough to comment.

Quote from Shane D.

Question is: Why is the tech still in the lab, and BLP struggling to attract funding and a partner? I can't figure it out.

I haven't the slightest idea. But it is not a good sign.

I cannot make head or tail of his present experiments. His early ones at Thermacore were much simpler. They looked like cold fusion, so I assumed they were cold fusion, only with Ni instead of Pd.

https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GernertNnascenthyd.pdf

Quote from JedRothwell

I don't know enough to comment. I can ask, though: Does this simple model explain the D+D => He reaction? If it doesn't explain that, it doesn't explain cold fusion. My understanding is that Mills does not think the heat from his reaction comes from D+D fusion. It comes from "shrinking hydrogen atoms" (whatever that is). He does not predict there will be helium. Therefore, assuming he is right, he is not seeing cold fusion. It is something else. So it is not "a physical model for the reaction." It is a physical model for another reaction.

I do not understand such papers enough to comment.

Time for both of us to learn then!

Quote

I cannot make head or tail of his present experiments.

Neither can most people. I'm willing to bet that's no accident.

Quote from Navid

I have to be more specific first do you believe resonant transfer reactions are plausible in nature, and two do you understand this is happening in Mills work?

The problem is that Mills postulated a Hydrino particle model that is full of flaws. He correctly identified the resonant energy transfer between masses without understanding it's nature. All mass is magnetic EM mass and resonances are either joint waves or added energy. H*/D* is a joint wave where as a hydrino resonances is added energy.

The good thing is that LENR and also the SUN-CELL reaction are based on the same mechanism that is not in Mills physics! Mills just says it's resonant transfer but all his hydrino calculations are as precise as SM that as best has about 1% error. This is way above the simple Bohr model.

We all like Mills because he reintroduced Maxwell & Newton to nuclear physics and found a new way to treat magnetic effects. We also like him because he could isolate and measure H*-H*. But do not believe that his model explains anything fundamental about his experimental work or LENR.