Early NiH Scamming: The Unfounded Work, Fake Hydrogen Absorption, and False Test Results.

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    The entire reality or falsity of the Rossi Effect does NOT revolve around Doral.

    You should also realize that the entire deception of Rossi does not revolve around Doral either! It has always been there!


    He lied to Hydrofusion.

    He lied to Kullander and salted test samples.

    He lied about 10 plants being sold since 2011.

    He had multiple suits brought against him for money laundering, fake invoices, fake customers, fake factories, fake gold shipments and more. All unrelated to LENR or Doral!


    The Doral facility is just the icing on the cake so to speak! It is not that people are staking ALL judgement from the Doral event. It is just the latest and

    most revelatory event. It is one that we are getting unprecedented access to court documents etc.


    I am not against Parkamov or ME356. If they have something, great. Let them get it out and prove it! I will be the better off! But until they do, Parkamov has little and ME356 has nothing! Until something is truly replicated and proven, it is nothing! Rossi has a history of fraud and it is catching up to him.


    You cannot separate the man and his "technology" as they go hand in hand.

    Rossi is not spending time on trying to get his eCat out to market, he is trying to get $89 million from IH! If his device worked, he could prove it and sell it for a billion dollars! He could prove it now and get $89 million from IH. He does not do this.


    It is time you really asked yourself why!

    • Official Post
    Quote from M. Nakamura*, M. Uchimura, H. Takahashi, S. Sumitomo

    The first one is the experimental results regarding to


    reproducing Parkhomov’s experiment with some disclosing experimental conditions using


    Differential Scanning Calorimetry (STA-PT1600, Linseis Inc.). This DSC can measure generated


    heat within a tolerance of 2%

    Is there any indication if the results are significant, and positive ?

    I missed where it is said.

    Quote

    If this happens, I think it would be more accurate to say that Mills,
    Thermacore and Piantelli had something, Rossi had nothing, and Nissan
    has confirmed the former. I do not see why Rossi gets any credit for
    anything, unless his own devices are shown to work.



    So if Rossi was using a combination of nickel powder and lithium aluminum hydride and claiming excess heat and then others use the same approximate combination to produce excess heat then he has nothing? First of all, Piantelli and Focardi never used powder: they used bulk nickel in which 99% of the mass of the fuel could not participate in the reaction. Rossi's first step was to increase surface area and hence the amount of fuel that could become, "active." Furthermore, although he likely utilized additives for some of his first systems and hydrogen from a tank, I'm not sure if anyone before him attempted to perform an actual test with a combination of nickel and LiAlH4. I know there are patents which discuss the use of hydrides as a hydrogen source, but I don't think (although I could be wrong) any tests were performed.


    I'm convinced that Rossi's technology did work. Unless you think Focardi is every bit as horrible of a human being as you consider Rossi, he is on the record as having participated in many of his tests and verifying excess heat! He states this in available YouTube videos and quotes in the book, "Secrets of the E-Cat" in which the journalist both obtained official interviews AND off the camera conversations. Then Rossi performed seemingly convincing tests to the Navel Research Lab (I think Tony Tether was a witness who found the test convincing). After that Dr. Levi witnessed a few tests with the early low temperature E-Cat reactors. In one test, a reactor using water flow calorimetry seemed to basically self sustain for eighteen hours, with the input power only being about a hundred watts for the control box. Then I remember a whole series of tests and demonstrations Rossi performed, but I do not recall the details. At some point, Cures became involved and he gave his account IN DETAIL on the Cobraf forum about helping Rossi test a variety of reactors (both the reactors for the first one megawatt plant and the earliest "hot cats"). He assisted without signing an NDA or accepting any compensation, until he claims (although he never uses the words Industrial Heat) Rossi's new partner wanted him off of the project. Then, before Lugano, there were tests conducted by Dr. Levi and others of "hot cat" reactors that seemed to show excess heat. In addition to this, people close to Rossi have alleged that he ran test after test privately or with his closest assistants.


    Overall, Rossi ran a ton of tests. Regardless if the Doral plant produced a watt of excess heat or not, I feel it is downright ridiculous to say that it has any impact on the reality or falsity of excess heat in other tests.


    Quote

    What hundreds of tests?!? What are you talking about, for crying out
    loud? He has never published a single convincing test! Previously he did
    not allow anyone to test the machine with proper instruments. Finally,
    when I.H. spent a year testing it correctly, they found nothing.



    And they've not posted ANY test results from that period, so none of us can look at them. Obviously, due to the litigation, there are legal reasons why they cannot. I get that.

    Quote from AlainCo

    Is there any indication if the results are significant, and positive ?

    I missed where it is said.


    The idea is that if they had not found any excess heat, they wouldn't have submitted a second paper about the practicality of the technology for vehicles. To run a test or series of tests and get no results and publish such a paper might seem a little strange.

    magicsound thanks for that it's very interesting.


    I guess it's likely the thermal signature from adsorption/desorption might be too small the detect in this case.


    Typically the van der Waals force is less than 50 kJ per mole with exact values depending on the type of material or nano crystal type.


    http://w0.rz-berlin.mpg.de/imp…kwitz_Mi_9-11_KChrist.pdf


    I think for Nickel (100) single crystal face It can be about 48 kJ per mole.


    Hydrogen is close to about 1g per mole


    So even if 0.0005g of hydrogen was adsorbed:


    0.0005g of atomic hydrogen is close to 0.0005 moles which corresponds to about 24 J of energy released during adsorption or consumed during desorption.


    I think over the duration of the adsorption/desorption (several hours I think) this would correspond to a very low wattage and small effect compared to the heating power. Perhaps at periods of high adsorbtion/desorption rate the thermal effect might be slightly higher than during the over all duration. I guess it would still be very low compared to the heater power.


    Interesting though.

    Quote

    You cannot separate the man and his "technology" as they go hand in hand.


    That is where we different. I believe that you can differentiate between Andrea Rossi and his technology as a whole.

    Quote from StephenC

    0.0005g of atomic hydrogen is close to 0.0005 moles which corresponds to about 24 J of energy released during adsorption or consumed during desorption.


    The catalytic dissociation of H2 also affects the enthalpy, ~+460 kJ/mol. So if the 0.0005 mole of gas is completely converted to H* in the process of ad/absorption, about 230 Joules would be needed from the thermal environment. If the conversion is H2->H+ H-, the enthalpy is a bit lower. This ionic species has been proposed in the context of molten LiAl.

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    So if Rossi was using a combination of nickel powder and lithium aluminum hydride and claiming excess heat and then others use the same approximate combination to produce excess heat then he has nothing?

    Yes. His data shows fake data, with no sign of actual excess heat. His tests never worked (with the possible exception of the first Levi test). I.H. spent a year trying to make his devices work, but they got nothing.


    If other people managed to get heat from nanopowder Ni, perhaps they were inspired by reports that Rossi's device worked. I do not know what inspired them. But suppose Rossi inspired them. Then in a strange way I guess Rossi deserves some credit. He set out to defraud people, and by accident, his pretend experiment actually works when real scientists do it.


    That would not be a huge surprise. There is some indication that Ni-CF works, and many people have suggested using powder or Raney nickel, a.k.a. spongy nickel. Arata pioneered this technique long before Rossi come on the scene. As I recall, Fleischmann was the first to suggest the use spongy nickel, in 1990. Perhaps Rossi found this idea in the literature. There is nothing wrong with finding good ideas in the literature, but Rossi should not get the credit for successfully implementing these ideas because his own experiments failed.


    For that matter, I knew about this before Rossi came along, and I was recommending that people try it. So I should get as much credit as Rossi gets. (Which is to say, no credit.)

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    First of all, Piantelli and Focardi never used powder: they used bulk nickel in which 99% of the mass of the fuel could not participate in the reaction. Rossi's first step was to increase surface area and hence the amount of fuel that could become, "active."

    But others did use powder, both Ni and Pd, and various other forms of absorbent Ni.

    Quote from Shane D.

    BG also visited him in Italy as you surely know, where he agreed to a cooperation with MFMP. That caused much excitement at the time, as would be expected. Unfortunately, we never heard another thing about that. The gossip afterwards was that Piantelli had been reined in by his company NichEnergy. Lame excuse if you ask me, and sadly par for the course in LENR.

    Fortunately, I was invited by Bob Greenyer to join he, Mathieu, Ryan, and Bill Collis to visit Dr. Piantelli in Italy. So, I was there for part of those MFMP meetings. Dr. Piantelli wanted MFMP to replicate his earlier technology (the Ni rod experiment), but MFMP was not able/willing to meet his conditions. BG was trying to sell Live Open Science. Dr. Piantelli wanted the conventional approach - work on the replication and when MFMP has sucessfully replicated (with Piantelli's help), MFMP would then publish the whole story in a respected scientific journal. Dr. Piantelli also thought that MFMP should raise $500k before starting to insure that there were enough resources to complete the replication. It was a generous offer, but but in many ways beyond the means of MFMP. The offer was never specifically formalized and never rejected - it was just never pursued for unresolved issues. It wasn't NichEnergy that stepped in and stopped it - a true replication would have been wonderful for their IP. That is, by the way, what the proposal was - an EXACT replication to the best of Piantelli's specification under his direct supervision for startup and operation (but all in the open).


    Dr. Piantelli did provide some clues as to what he regards as important and how he believes the reaction works. I have written the start of a paper where I try to piece together the pieces he as provided, but I am a rank amateur at theoretical nuclear physics. I don't want to do Dr. Piantelli a dis-service by publishing something under my name about his technology, or under his name and get it wrong. I will say that Dr. Piantelli doesn't believe he has sufficient evidence to put together the whole story himself and doesn't want to speculate without data - attributes of a scientist. At the time of my visit, he was actively developing new particle detection technology so as to get more information about what was happening inside his reaction.

    magicsound


    Thanks for your replies to my earlier questions. It's interesting the point about dissociation of H2. As I understand from other papers that hydrogenisation of most metals is exothermic where as desorption is endothermic. And the H2 dissociation takes place on the surface. I wonder now if the thermal energies they mention take into account your point.


    The H2 dissociation to H+ and H- is also an interesting point. Especially if these ions are particularly relevant for some reasons.


    Any way I suppose the thermodynamic energies involved in this process would require larger amounts of fuel than in the glow stick experiments to be noticeable.


    I'm quite curious if we can see if the hydrogen released from the Nickel is energized or even ionized. If so does it occur continuously or only during desorption? If so this kind of information might give us some understanding of the processes involved.


    I suppose the Glowstick it self is not transparent to UV? I wonder if some kind of high temperature UV sensor probe could be included with the pressure sensor probe at least during the periods it's in the operable temperature range?

    Quote from StephenC

    I suppose the Glowstick it self is not transparent to UV? I wonder if some kind of high temperature UV sensor probe could be included with the pressure sensor probe at least during the periods it's in the operable temperature range?

    This would probably require a Ni-H experiment in fused quartz or sapphire and conducting an experiment designed for observation of loading effects. This would probably just be the Ni powder inside the tube with the H2 being supplied as gas. If the LiAlH4 was used, it would likely coat the inside of the tube preventing any external UV observation. The other problem is supplying the heat while still being able to observe the UV unobstructed. I don't think it would be possible to insert a UV sensor inside the tube.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    You should ask I.H. for the 500 grand. I believe they might give it to you.

    While I think IH may have an interest in such a replication, there would be some painful details to work out. IH would have to develop a relationship with Nichenergy and Dr. Piantelli, which is clouded by IH's relationship and ongoing legal battle with Rossi - Piantelli holds Rossi with a high DIS-regard (to put it mildly - despise might be more appropriate). Working with Dr. Piantelli to do a replication would require a team. Note that Dr. Piantelli only speaks Italian. This not a criticism at all - I only speak English with a handful of words in other languages. So, the team would need someone that could speak technical Italian. In addition, it may be necessary for the replication to occur in Europe to be not displaced too far in time and distance for holding regular meetings with Dr. Piantelli online and face-to-face. This would be a big undertaking, but certainly doable. It would have to begin with a relationship between Nichenergy, Dr. Piantelli, and IH. A true replication without that relationship would not be possible.

    I'm eager for Me356 to present his results because he is claiming a COP of 10 up to sometimes 40 (intentionally not going higher to avoid unwanted emissions).


    Maybe with Nissan about to make their presentation, it will motivate him to present his data and methods to the community.


    After so many grueling months of having deal with constant negativity, it seems a few positive events are about to happen.


    EDIT: If he is still using wire and not powder, his results are even more amazing.

    Quote from THEDEBATEISUSELESS

    First of all, Piantelli and Focardi never used powder: they used bulk nickel in which 99% of the mass of the fuel could not participate in the reaction. Rossi's first step was to increase surface area and hence the amount of fuel that could become, "active."

    I don't believe you can say that Piantelli and Focardi never used powder. What I can observe about this, having worked with powder, is that it is immensely more difficult to pursue the SCIENCE of LENR when using powder. There is evidence, particularly in Ni-H LENR, that the LENR is largely a near-surface effect. It is obvious that increasing the surface area could expand the power density. However, the surface of the powder is highly complex and difficult to study even with the best instrumentation. Working with materials having a simpler surface area, even at lower power density, allows study of the effect far more readily than will ever be done with powder. Working with a Ni rod, Dr. Piantelli greatly expanded his understanding of the underlying Ni-H LENR effect with the instruments in his lab, and is rumored to have created advanced, engineered LENR materials that are presently proprietary. Rossi is not a scientist, he is an engineer. He appears to be trying to engineer high power LENR in powders without understanding the science behind the LENR (this is also not necessarily a criticism). Dr. Piantelli is a scientist and wants to understand the chemo-physics of the phenomenon.

    Bob,


    I agree with how using wire could be more useful in understanding the basic effect. You are absolutely correct in my opinion. Also, as you have pointed out in the past, nickel powder presents a problem due to sintering. The smaller you go the lower the temperature the powder will start forming one solid mass. So beyond a certain level, increasing the surface area results in diminishing returns. My guess is that Rossi determined a few microns in size was as small as you could go without facing major issues with sintering that would require huge R and D efforts.


    However, I'm all for producing a high powered system that is mostly reliable first (enough to be commercialized) and then let scientists for the next hundred years theorize about the detailed processes. If Me356 has accomplished this with just WIRE I'll jump for joy and do a dance. My guess is that if he can get high COP and high output from wire, he must have found a way to fracture the surface dramatically to increase the surface area by an order of magnitude or two.

    • Official Post
    Quote from BobHiggins

    This would probably require a Ni-H experiment in fused quartz or sapphire and conducting an experiment designed for observation of loading effects. This would probably just be the Ni powder inside the tube with the H2 being supplied as gas. If the LiAlH4 was used, it would likely coat the inside of the tube preventing any external UV observation. The other problem is supplying the heat while still being able to observe the UV unobstructed. I don't think it would be possible to insert a UV sensor inside the tube.


    Hi Bob. Funnily enough I have been discussing this 'on the side' recently. It occurs to me that you could heat the tube with an IR laser, which would not screw your UV measurements. Also, since there would be a 'hot-spot' where the laser hits the tube wall, there would be less likelihood of Li vapour condensing there to spoil the view.

    Quote
    Ni-H experiment in fused quartz or sapphire.... If the LiAlH4 was used, it would likely coat the inside of the tube..


    IMO LiAlH4 would reduce silicon from quartz as the mixture of lithium and sand burns like the termite. Which is also why it don't think Me356 uses any lithium in his transparent reactors with hydrogen discharge (as Bob Greenyer also noted). At low temperatures lithium reduces even the aluminum from sapphire due to its higher electronegativity, but at high temperatures the reaction gets reversed being exothermic.


    Quote

    If Me356 has accomplished this with just WIRE I'll jump for joy and do a dance.



    Replication is what counts in research, not dance. In nobody will replicate Me356, than we will not outlive any progress anyway.

    I agree that replication is what matters. But if you can treat nickel wires in such a way, despite their low surface area before treatment, to produce high levels of excess heat then I think it is a sign that replication may be slightly less of a dreadfully tedious process that some people think. I'm not saying replication isn't a lot of work, but if nickel wire can be processed to work extremely well then I will indeed do a dance. Me356 has promised to share all the information required for replication. So far, he has been very slow about this. But if he has been honest to Bob Greenyer, he may be about to spill the beans.

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