Papp and the Papp engine

  • No idea of what is reality, but a good manipulator exploit what people tell him about their assumption, their ideas, their dream. He also can get inspiration from papers to build a soup of credible claims, credible technology, credible theories. He can exploits reality, imagination, goodwill and dreams. He can exploit theorists, experimenters, hobbyists, businessmen, confirming their beliefs, and assembling all in a coherent soup.

    Another example: good disinformation is based on mostly real fact, mixed with few fake claims.

    This is something to remind.

  • The last test that Russ Gries ran was the production of the feedback current test. This current is important to power the next firing of the alternate cylinder. The Papp engine always has an even number of cylinders that alternately fires with one powering the ignition of the other in succession. Russ saw no feedback current. Russ used no radioactive elements in the current pickup electrodes.

    On the other hand, Bob Rohner uses thorium 232 in his current pickup electrodes and Bod sees a feedback current. Joe Papp used radium in his pickup electrodes and he gathered enough feedback current to fire the alternate cylinder with excess current left over.

    See 18:00 of the Bob Rihner video demo for a demonstration of the production of the feedback current.

    Russ wanted to have more children at the time so he gave up the Papp engine experiments. He was not willing to use radioactive elements to activate his pickup electrodes (apply a positive charge bias) for fear of reproductive problems that those radioactive elements would cause.

    Without the production of a overunity amount of feedback current, the Papp engine does not self power itself.

  • Eric (et all).

    I looked at the link you provided on I-energy (well I saw it years ago and a refresher is not a bad idea). Maybe we could have a thread and put this to bed once (well it will not be for all) Papp interested me for sometime. So I went to the links in the article.

    I think I am turning (like a zombie) to a ahhhahhh a skeptic. NEED BRAINS.

    Just so whomever is Sherlock ( but seems knows of MaryYugos posting style . This the the place. Not the BG thread.

    And for the record Papp it is bullshaite. Okay'm?


  • I looked at the link you provided on I-energy (well I saw it years ago and a refresher is not a bad idea). Maybe we could have a thread and put this to bed once (well it will not be for all) Papp interested me for sometime. So I went to the links in the article.


    The Papp patents stand out for being improbable candidates for teaching someone skilled in the art how to make a working noble gas engine. What initially piqued my interest was the witness testimony discussed in the Mallove article (linking again for context). And that Mallove is a pretty smart guy, even if he was attracted to technologies that would be too fringe for most people. And the testimony of Mike McKubre concerning Bob Rohner's related device.

    That generated enough interest for me to labor through the Papp patents and to read up on the history from other sources. I have my own thoughts on how the Papp engine might have worked, if it ever did, and one reading of the patents is that they are the product of an unbalanced mind that tried a bunch of stuff and stumbled onto something that worked without having a systematic theory for why it worked. I suspected that Feynman couldn't get past the theory gibberish and as a consequence wrote off the Papp device prematurely, failing to do sufficient due diligence to fully and adequately debunk it, an effort that would at any rate probably have been given up following the lawsuit.

  • Eric,

    Thanks for the thread. I look at articles an try to drill down, if they are interesting. So the patent that was linked was to Pappy's use , but then (with regards to looking at patents) I have a lot of time on my hands to follow links. I asked you how it could have worked and you provided a plausible answer. Since we now have a Papp spot...

    Maybe there is some new knowledge here. It's a better place than the BG thread that is for sure. I did not want to get even near either the Sub or Feynman. But (regarding the Sub) who knows ?? in the early 60's-80's cavitation is one of the most protected of areas with regards to weapons. So going back- it would seem that he had non-noble gasses (air) or had a nuclear source. That engine had to leak- maybe he had it surrounded by methane.

  • Yes the sub was a footnote in the absurd. My understanding and knowledge on propeller design is very old (over 2 decades) it is still a secret (AFAIK). Back to the Papp engine. IE magazine is not very credible to me, but a damn good read. I read it but consider the bias in the article. I do that here (bias) also. How that engine produced kinetic energy (if it could have worked at all) is beyond what I understand. It would have to be nuclear at this point, non chemical. But that is the thing with these historic records. It is hard to challenge them after so much time has passed. I have not either seen or heard of a noble gas engine with out oxidizer.

    //As an aside, look at the back of the Kursk (after is was raised or razed ;)

  • How that engine produced kinetic energy (if it could have worked at all) is beyond what I understand.

    For the benefit of new readers, I'll restate the mechanism that seems plausible to me here: We can gather from the patents that Papp placed radioactive elements on the electrodes (e.g., thorium). When the electrodes discharged, this might have increased the activity of the radioisotopes, causing prompt particles to ionize the inert working gas without heating it up significantly.

    But that is the thing with these historic records. It is hard to challenge them after so much time has passed.

    There is a danger in revisiting these old historical episodes that do not have much basis in scientific fact. My hope is that as with the Rossi affair, if enough information can be gathered together in one place, it will provide a disinfectant if needed along with a sense of what the relative likelihoods of various possibilities are.

  • A long time ago i worked out a 'scam scenario' for the Papp engine, and a reason for its explosion, with its tragic outcome. I post it here for no particular reason beyond checking to see if there are any holes in it.

    I0.5 kg of hydrogen at 100Bar has a volume of 0.06CM3. With a custom-built tank I think that is small enough to be concealed within the sump of a Volvo engine that, since it was idling and doing no work would not need a serious oil-supply. Since 0.5 kgH contains 16.5 kW/H of energy, it would run such a motor at low speed for a few hours and only produce clean but steamy exhaust.

    Switching off the control system power allowed hydrogen to fill the free space in the sump resulting in a hydrogen-assisted pressure explosion, and a fatality.

  • Only if it was a cloud of very hot oil mist (mist clouds can look silvery in some lighting) that burnt when exposed to the air - in a 'flashover' and became smoke. But as the engine was AFAIK never closely examined we can never be sure.

  • Papp was a paranoid person, concerned that others would steal his ideas. Roser wanted the engine to be displayed to the public, but Papp did not. Papp eventually agreed reluctantly. Papp and Roser had a few heated disagreements and Papp decided to thwart Roser and one result was Papp's uncooperativeness to take the engine to commercial success. Papp had his money why should he help his partner he despised? Like some inventors, Papp was his own worst enemy, so it seemed. This mistrust ran through all his business dealings and complicates the incredible story. The inventor was a jerk but his engine was real.

    The public display of the Papp/Roser engine in Roser's parking lot in Torrence, California, in 1968 attracted Nobel Laureate Richard Feynman. The modified four cylinder Volvo engine on a test stand in the parking lot was controlled by engine electronics run from a 120 VAC extension cord plugged into the building 100 feet away. Feynman saw the extension cord and thought he knew the source of the hoax he was so convinced it was. Feynman pulled the plug, but the engine continued to run. After about two minutes, the engine had not slowed down (running about 3000 rpm, as evidenced by the fan left on the engine to produce a visible effect) but started to run rough. Papp grew nervous and argued with Feynman to plug it back in. Feynman refused, so Papp yanked the cord from Feynman and plugged it in. The engine exploded, killing one bystander. Feynman accused Papp of placing explosives in the engine so it would be destroyed before legitimate testing could be done, in order to keep the hoax alive. Since a fatality occurred, the FBI got involved. No evidence of explosives was found. Papp sued Feynman and Feynman and Caltech settled out of court. If it were a hoax, there is no way Caltech would have settled out of court. It was done so Feynman and Caltech could save face.

    It seems, Papp didn't like the running his engine in selfpowering mode in similar way, like Andrea Rossi his reactor.


    Ionization and Coulomb explosion of Xenon clusters by intense, few-cycle laser pulses

    The power of the Papp engine came from the Coulomb explosion of noble gas clusters. The energy released by the explosion is proportional to the number of noble gas atoms in the cluster and the duration o the light pulse that triggered the coulomb explosion. The noble gas clusters were generated in the vacuum cycle of the non active piston.

    A large exploding noble gas cluster can produce as much as 2 MeV in energy.

    The XUV excitation pulses came from the chlorine in the noble gas mix as activated by the ignition spark.


    An excimer laser typically uses a combination of a noble gas (argon, krypton, or xenon) and a reactive gas (fluorine or chlorine). Under the appropriate conditions of electrical stimulation and high pressure, a pseudo-molecule called an excimer (or in the case of noble gas halides, exciplex) is created, which can only exist in an energized state and can give rise to laser light in the ultraviolet range.

    Papp polished the interior of the engine to reflect the excitation light created by the Excimer_laser discharge.…ines/5_coulomb/1_coulomb/


    The ions attain their kinetic energy from the conversion of the electrostatic repulsive energy in the cluster; the ions are too heavy to be accelerated directly by the rapidly oscillating laser electric field. Depending on the ion charges, the initial cluster/nanodroplet radius, the level and speed of the outer ionization process, the ion energies are in the keV to MeV range which is sufficient to induce nuclear fusion, if hydrogen isotopes are involved. Accordingly, possible applications of Coulomb explosions are table-top laser-induced nuclear fusion and neutron sources for material research [7-9] the study of stellar nucleosynthesis in the laboratory [10,11] (“stars in the lab” [12]), as well as particle accelerators.

  • I'm not sure if it is related but I'm quite curious about what happens to the helium produced in LENR reactions. I suppose in Wet type LENR with Deuterium fuel the helium is out gassed . In sealed systems such as LENR+ using lithium im curious how the helium is processed. I suppose similar amounts of Helium would be produced as the original amounts of Hydrogen or Lithium. If this remained in the system as a gas I suppose it would reach quite high pressures.

    I wonder if the helium would also be absorbed in to the metals? There are some interesting papers on Metal Titrates with helium in particular how the helium can nucleate in to clusters and form pockets in the metal. This in itself could be quite Interesting if those clusters can produce the Coulomb explosion effects mentioned by Axil. Could this be related to Papps engine in some way?

    On the other hand could these pockets formed in side the metal be sites where hydrogen could collect and adsorb on internal surfaces in the metal.

    Another interesting thing is Helium Ions are sometimes used to etch the surface of Nickel gold and other metals to make plasmonic black metals that absorb most of the incident optical Light or have particular polarization attributes.

    I don't know if any of these effects are relevant but they seem interesting.

  • I'm not sure if it is related but I'm quite curious about what happens to the helium produced in LENR reactions.

    It seems in electrolysis that He4 is partially freed in the effluent gas, and partly locked in the metal, and freed by reverse electrolysys or chemical attack.

    It should be documented in the specific works of Miles, McKubre,Chien,DeNinno...

    you can start to read those papers

    The latets review by Abd

    and why not those…n_cold_fusion_experiments

    There are also many details in the answer to Shanahan critics....

  • Has anybody ever wondered why Papp did not build another engine with the generous settlement he received from Caltech?

    Papp presented to an audience, including Feynman, an ill-fated demonstration in 1966, in which his engine exploded, killing one man and seriously injuring two others.

    That 1966 vintage engine was based on water. In the mid 1980s, Papp patented another type of engine based on noble gases.