Wow this thread has like 5.9 k comments of mostly fighting back and forth can't wait for bob Higgins next expierement so I can get back to lenr! Wish him and can would move to ecw not as bad there or mabee the moderator not allow the people who want to fight about it not able to work on that thread. This thread is starting to get playgroundish. Sorry
ECW and Rossi-ism
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I agree that undignified squabbling is never pretty. However, there are OTHER technical threads in here. You are not obliged to read anything about the legal aspects of the Rossi affair.
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would move to ecw not as bad there
At ECW, you get banned if you do not believe Rossi. I know from personal experience.
Here at LENR forum, no one forces you to read Rossi vs Darden. You can skip it whenever you like and just read whatever thread you like.
I follow the Bob Higgins experiment thread and have seen no arguments and very good dialog. It is indeed at times, a refreshing break from Rossi vs. Darden!
At ECW, you will only be allowed to make pro-Rossi posts for any period of time. Which do you really prefer... the ability to choose what to read and post, or have Frank Ackland decide what you can read and post? (This is not meant to be a diss on Frank, I think he is a good person overall) My point is, that in one forum you have freedom of choice, in the other you do not.
I personally will take the freedom and appreciate it. While the moderators have a tough job (and they cannot please everyone) I think overall they do a much better job than the totalitarian oversight used by Frank. (And I appreciate that....probably do not say it enough)
Separating threads and keeping them on topic is exactly the tool intended to address your concern. Do not like to read about Rossi? Do not click on the Rossi vs Darden thread! That simple!
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Bob,
Disagree on your ECW comment.
I have never believed that the Ecat/quark/tiger/mouse or anything Rossi has ever produced Energy Out > Energy In and have stated so with my reasons many, many times on ECW and have never been banned.
However, many of my "non Rossi compliant"
Comments have been moderated, where here, none of my comments have ever been moderated.
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My understanding of ECW is that arguments that directly contradict RossiSays, unless presented very tactfully, get you banned. Specifically, though you might be allowed to present a technical argument, you would not be allowed to restate it as necessary when pointing out that various uninformed Rossi-could-be-right speculations don't actually get round it. Therefore you either need to give up presenting what you believe true, accepting other posts you can show false or irrelevant, or get banned.
Frank has every right to run his site in the way he wishes, and no doubt there are some who value his approach. I think it should have a clear warning that the moderation policy inherently makes discussion of issues such as Rossi vs IH biased, rather than delivering the semblance of an authoritative news about Rossi site.
One example of this is the heat exchanger debate. The fact that Wong's estimate is so inaccurate that it cannot deal with the missing 1MW dissipation problem is a crucial problem for the ECW worldview. It is just not discussed on ECW, with most (all?) of those capable and motivated enough to present it banned from there.
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@Bob....Disagree on your ECW comment.
I have never believed that the Ecat/quark/tiger/mouse or anything Rossi has ever produced Energy Out > Energy In and have stated so with my reasons many, many times on ECW and have never been banned.
However, many of my "non Rossi compliant"
Comments have been moderated, where here, none of my comments have ever been moderated.
You appear to have misread Bob's post. He was actually pretty much agreeing with your views on the difference between ECW and LENR-Forum. At ECW 'non-Rossi' stuff puts you on a short rein...here is is a lot longer.
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Bob,
Disagree on your ECW comment.
I have never believed that the Ecat/quark/tiger/mouse or anything Rossi has ever produced Energy Out > Energy In and have stated so with my reasons many, many times on ECW and have never been banned.
However, many of my "non Rossi compliant"
Comments have been moderated, where here, none of my comments have ever been moderated.
I posted on ECW for several years. First as a "RossI believer" but with reservations.
Over time, my opinion changed. I then start posting very infrequently, often only on new subjects that were "really a stretch". My posts almost always were simply quoting, with link, to a Rossi quote and then asking what the status was. Such as "Rossi posted a plant was sold on... what is the status of this." I would sometimes put up a series of Rossi quotes and then asked for an explanation of why they appeared to be false.
About 4 months ago, I made reply to a post and received a notice that either my browser was malfunctioning or I had been banned from the site.
I sent Frank a private email and he responded privately that I indeed had been banned by him and the reason was that it was clear I did not believe in the eCat or Rossi and the ECW was for believers only. I had received no warnings. I can assure you that my posts were always without personal insult and were simply quoting Rossi. I posted there under "Guest" user but always signed by posts with Bob, as I do here, my real name. I do not know if you can search a users post at ECW or not, but I encourage it as I am not ashamed of any posts I made there.
THH says he was banned and he also is very polite and fact based. Frank made it clear to me that the governing decision he uses is if one believes Rossi and if posts made will argue that fact. At least he was very forthright in his private response to me. I can accept that. It is his website and he can do as he pleases.
I only commented back to him that he should make that policy very clear.
I do believe censoring fact based postings are unfortunate though and I have no further interest in ECW. You will not get the complete picture from information on that site.
Edit:
Frank does have the following under the commenting guidelines tab of ECW:
"The following types of comments are subject to moderation:
- Comments that state openly or by implication that LENR/cold fusion/E-Cat is a fraud or hoax" (Emphasis mine)
However, he did more than moderate, he banned me. But enough of this I guess, it is a bit off topic.!
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At ECW, you get banned if you do not believe Rossi. I know from personal experience.
Here at LENR forum, no one forces you to read Rossi vs Darden. You can skip it whenever you like and just read whatever thread you like.
I follow the Bob Higgins experiment thread and have seen no arguments and very good dialog. It is indeed at times, a refreshing break from Rossi vs. Darden!
At ECW, you will only be allowed to make pro-Rossi posts for any period of time. Which do you really prefer... the ability to choose what to read and post, or have Frank Ackland decide what you can read and post? (This is not meant to be a diss on Frank, I think he is a good person overall) My point is, that in one forum you have freedom of choice, in the other you do not.
I personally will take the freedom and appreciate it. While the moderators have a tough job (and they cannot please everyone) I think overall they do a much better job than the totalitarian oversight used by Frank. (And I appreciate that....probably do not say it enough)
Separating threads and keeping them on topic is exactly the tool intended to address your concern. Do not like to read about Rossi? Do not click on the Rossi vs Darden thread! That simple!
I personally see more bias here than on ECW. Here supporter's of Rossi are denigrated , ridiculed and eventually banned if they respond in kind. I see ECW as less technically oriented, but more evenly balanced over all.
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I personally see more bias here than on ECW. Here supporter's of Rossi are denigrated , ridiculed and eventually banned if they respond in kind. I see ECW as less technically oriented, but more evenly balanced over all.
RR -
Everyone has their own subjective views of bias, of course. However the fact is that no-one is banned here for their views, only for how they express them. Whereas on ECW people like Bob, Paradigmnoia, and me, who are towards the always polite end of the spectrum, are banned, purely because of the views we have.
Maybe you could also consider the denigration and ridicule you have noticed, and consider to what extent that is denigrating posters, and to what extent it is stating (with reasons) that certain views are incorrect? If you think about it, where some views are more correct than others, that is gonna happen.
If posters have been denigrated (may have been) I'd like to apologise.
regards, THH
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I personally see more bias here than on ECW. Here supporter's of Rossi are denigrated , ridiculed and eventually banned if they respond in kind. I see ECW as less technically oriented, but more evenly balanced over all.
Hum, I find it unfair for LF as THH said.
Maybe this feeling of being ridiculed is linked to the evidences, and Rossi's defense which is beyond ridicule.
I see the desperate enthusiasm of some, as a shocking exploitation of human goodwill and energy by evil player.
Sadly it is a common fact that few people exploit goodwill of many... At least nobody made explode himself for E-cat, and I thanks Rossi for that moderation.
Too much groupthink on earth today. I'm tired.
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To those who criticise the balance of Rossi supporters.
I think the balance would have been more even around a year ago.
As more evidence has come out many have changed their mind on Rossi (such as Shane and myself). That is in large part due to Rossi himself.
I suspect on ECW many who lost faith with Rossi just stopped posting. ECW is now Rossi faithful for the most part.
I expect as time goes on the numbers of Rossi faithful will continue to decline, but no-one will ever prove that the E-Cat does not exist.
I don't see many personal attacks on this board but certainly cases of personal insults and grouchiness, which are regretable, and occasional bouts of evangelising, but in general it is a good place to freely debate and the moderators try to keep a good balance IMHO.
There is interesting discussion of technical, legal and all other aspects of this whole Rossi caper.
And even some discusion of LENR on occasion
For those who take the view that the evidence is clear on Rossi, it is an intriguing mystery, as to how those who still believe can make their case stand up.
That is one of the reasons I comment.
It is interesting to read the Rionrlty and IHFB take on events.
Of course there are some who have no facts or interpretation to add, merely protest, and that is not good enough to waste time commenting on.
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I personally see more bias here than on ECW. Here supporter's of Rossi are denigrated , ridiculed and eventually banned if they respond in kind. I see ECW as less technically oriented, but more balanced over all.
I think the main issue at is that at L-F you have a lot of* people with a strong technical background who have come to the conclusion that Rossi's claims are entirely ridiculous. On the other side there are people who apparently lack any technical training, experience, or knowledge**, who basically just argue that they believe what Rossi tells them. Hence denigration ensues. Rightfully IMO.
ECW is the last bastion of hardcore fanatics, self selected by their willingness to drink the daily kool-aid. Recently I responded to post there with some pro-Rossi technical arguments, yet was attacked by the usual buffoons, who seem to be entirely incapable of understanding such things.
At this point 'Engineer'48 has painted himself into a corner and is clearly grasping at straws to maintain his position. He's having to ignore a lot of skeptical arguments to do this, and is beginning to enter the same shameful area that Penon has firmly placed himself into.
* Not all by any means, there's the odd loudmouth unwittingly talking a lot of nonsense about engineering topics. (Not you Huxley, before you start...)
** With one (or possibly two) exceptions, by memory.
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ECW is the last bastion of hardcore fanatics, self selected by their willingness to drink the daily kool-aid. Recently I responded to post there with some pro-Rossi technical arguments, yet was attacked by the usual buffoons, who seem to be entirely incapable of understanding such things.
Yes fanatics and supporters of Rossi's hoax like Frank.
At this point 'Engineer'48 has painted himself into a corner and is clearly grasping at straws to maintain his position. He's having to ignore a lot of skeptical arguments to do this, and is beginning to enter the same shameful area that Penon has firmly placed himself into.
He's a another Rossi's puppet.
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@Henry
You are in danger of sounding like Rossi now. Rossi does, it seems, have any number of internet aliasses which he uses especially to post on his own blog. It carries the inherent narcissim of blogging to a whole new level. These posts can be identified because of slightly ungrammatical language and choice of words matches that of Rossi.
Engineer48 is one of a number of people who though otherwise rational have ordered their thinking with the fixed idea that Rossi's devices work. As has been commented - it puts him in a difficult position now we have so much information released that Rossi's claims are provably false technically. Perhaps he will rethink his position?
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I think the main issue at is that at L-F you have a lot of* people with a strong technical background who have come to the conclusion that Rossi's claims are entirely ridiculous. On the other side there are people who apparently lack any technical training, experience, or knowledge**, who basically just argue that they believe what Rossi tells them.
By "strong technical background", do you mean software analysts and electronic circuits teachers writing 2k+ posts about thermocouples? and by people "lacking any technical training, experience, or knowledge", industry-savvy engineers having worked with steam or complicated machinery for decades (Engineer48, Peter Gluck, Rionrlty and others) ?
There definitely is desperation in the air -
You are in danger of sounding like Rossi now.No risks, because I never promoted a scam.
Rossi does, it seems, have any number of internet aliasses which he uses especially to post on his own blog. It carries the inherent narcissim of blogging to a whole new level. These posts can be identified because of slightly ungrammatical language and choice of words matches that of Rossi.
I'm happy that here finally someone realized that he uses a lot of puppets to make his propaganda.
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Quote
I think the main issue at is that at L-F you have a lot of* people with a strong technical background who have come to the conclusion that Rossi's claims are entirely ridiculous.
Better way way late than never, I guess.
QuoteI personally see more bias here than on ECW. Here supporter's of Rossi are denigrated , ridiculed and eventually banned if they respond in kind. I see ECW as less technically oriented, but more evenly balanced over all.
Nonsense. Try insulting G. Levi here, for example, and see what Alan does. There is virtually no science on ECW. Acland may be a "nice guy" but he is very gullible. He even attended to at length and spent money on the idiotically impossible and obviously mischaracterized gadgets offered to him by the sociopaths at Steorn! He seemed completely unable to test them in any reasonable way. And he does not EVER consider or allow on his forum the possibility that a claimant to some dumb and obviously false free energy scheme may be a crook.
QuoteThere definitely is desperation in the air
You're probably not referring to the weird dog and pony show Rossi just put on in "Stockolm" but if you are, I agree. It took immense absurdity in the claims and a consistent and complete lack of performance before Steorn finally, after more than ten years, and 22 million Euros, went belly up. Rossi is getting to that stage. This QX crappola seems like his last stand and his last try to find some really stupid rich person.
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Try insulting G. Levi here, for example, and see what Alan does
Try insulting anybody here and you will get banned. There is a move afoot to tidy this place up a lot, so take care you don't get brushed away.
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I look forward to seeing how a crackdown on insults works. I am routinely called pathetic, evil and stupid by Rossi supporters and there is never any concern expressed by moderators. Jed and Kirk call each other names in virtually every post between them and there is no official reaction. So far, the history suggests that if Rossiphiles are not in the crosshairs, there is a great deal of latitude with respect to civil discourse. If there is to be a tidying initiative, I hope it will be even-handed.
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At ECW, you get banned if you do not believe Rossi. I know from personal experience.
Posting on ECW is like going to church. The congregation raises thier voices in harmony in holy praise and worship. The doctrine is universally accepted, and heretics are banned and immediately tossed out the door, and the plague of perdition is not permitted inside the sacred walls. What a religious experience; good for the soul.
