Will this test be ran at a "MFMP location" or at ME356's facility?
Of MFMP's group, who is present and conducting this test?
The Me356 test will be run at Me356's location. Bob Greenyer, Ryan Hunt, Alan Goldwater, and Brian Albiston are known to be traveling there, but Emanuele may be along to document the experience in video. He is behind the camera in many of the MFMP European videos - does a good job with video production (and a really nice guy 
).
I do not think this 16 L (5 gallon) bucket is large enough. It is not deep enough. The vapor bubbles are escaping out of the water, carrying off enthalpy. There is vapor at the top of the water when the test finished, which is also lost enthalpy. I think letting it go to 60 deg C is too hot.
I recommend a large piece of wood or a wooden spoon to stir the water. Stir at the bottom and top.
The enthalpy lost by vapor bubbles would make the measurement conservative showing a slitly lower COP - would'nt it?
The enthalpy lost by vapor bubbles would make the measurement conservative showing a slitly lower COP - would'nt it?
Yes, but it is best to capture as much of the heat as you can, to get a balance close to zero. Plus I do not know if the difference would be slight or large.
I think letting it go to 60 deg C is too hot
I agree. The large surface area of the bucket lends itself to high evaporative losses. A stirrer and a lid (at least) would help a lot.
Gallium is a peak calibration standard for some MS machines.
Despite of what many write here on LENR forum, I believe that the main issue that an independent test group is nearly ready to verify a LENR device openly and hopefully life!
Really this is unique and a milestone in LENR history. When it is proven that the claimants figures are true, than LENR is real and we all will know.
Obviously I would have preferred the disclosure of the ME356 technology, but at the other hand this guy spend a lot of money in the development and wants something back. I am sure that in a few years we will know how it works, if ME356 has something.
For now let us wait and see and hope it works.
Gerard, to the contrary. There have been many instances over the last 28 years of researchers presenting interesting and credible evidence for LENR, openly, in the manner of science. The present situation is comparable to that of the Patterson cell, which was a proprietary technology, knowledge of which Patterson took to the grave, except that we knew something about Patterson whereas we know little about me356. But even if this situation is far from a novel one except to the extent that we've humored the claims of an anonymous poster on the Internet, let us hope nonetheless that MFMP's rigorous testing of me356's reactor gives us bona fide evidence of something interesting going on.
It will be a milestone if MFMP are able to verify kilowatts of excess power, which would be something new.
Gerard, to the contrary. There have been many instances over the last 28 years of researchers presenting interesting and credible evidence for LENR, openly, in the manner of science. The present situation is comparable to that of the Patterson cell, which was a proprietary technology, knowledge of which Patterson took to the grave, except that we knew something about Patterson whereas we know little about me356. But even if this situation is far from a novel one except to the extent that we've humored the claims of an anonymous poster on the Internet, let us hope nonetheless that MFMP's rigorous testing of me356's reactor gives us bona fide evidence of something interesting going on.
It will be a milestone if MFMP are able to verify kilowatts of excess power, which would be something new.
Eric, to the contrary. I completely agree with Gerard McEk's comments and have to disagree with your comments on the Patterson cell.
(1) As far as I know the Patterson cell was not independently tested.
(2) As far as I know the Patterson cell was not reproducible (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterson_Power_Cell). In fact, I believe that Jed Rothwell mentioned that Patterson himself lost the ability to make it work and wasn't sure why.
(3) Very few Pd-D experiments (at least possibly until recently) have been reproducible. Only a fraction work, and it's not known why (see U. of Missouri results) although speculation has been made regarding the preparation of the Pd. Of course for those that do work, the COP is very low and not predictable and the power level is very low.
(4) We do hope that "MFMP's rigorous testing of me356's reactor gives us bona fide evidence of something interesting going on". But we don't need you to tell us that.
(5) You're right that kW excess power (with COP or order 10 not say 1.2) is a game-changer. I'm sure that was implicit in Gerard's comments.
(6) Knowing who Patterson is (versus knowing who me356 is) makes no difference at this stage. It certainly didn't help with the Patterson cell, although it's true that some researchers claimed to have learned from the information provided by Patterson and CETI some ideas for how to make their own devices (which are still not reproducible, with convincing excess heat, or sustainable in terms of total excess energy production).
(7) My understanding is that if this independent test is successful (actually I believe that they are testing two different devices based on the same technology but configured differently in that one is stand-alone and the other is hooked up to a heating system) then the next step according to Bob Greenyer was to have many more independent tests by universities and commercial labs.
(8) It's true that there are several other players (e.g. Mizuno, Clean Planet, and many others) who may have something approaching this technology under development. However, as far as I know there have been no independent third-party, live open-science tests of these devices.
I for one am quite excited about the prospect of these tests, even if, I am concerned by the unwillingness by me356 to share his technology, as well as by the possibility that it may not work.
I should add that even if me356 does not share his technology but instead concentrates on commercialization (e.g. selling heaters) during the next year or so as he claims he will do, this will indeed STILL be a major breakthrough for LENR!
(1) As far as I know the Patterson cell was not independently tested.
Perhaps Jed can comment on the matter a little more, since I believe he interacted with Patterson and saw evidence that it was what Patterson claimed of it?
(3) Very few Pd-D experiments (at least possibly until recently) have been reproducible. Only a fraction work, and it's not known why (see U. of Missouri results) although speculation has been made regarding the preparation of the Pd. Of course for those that do work, the COP is very low and not predictable and the power level is very low.
(1) Reproducibility is an issue. But we have nothing more than hearsay from me356 that his reaction is reproducible at this point. (2) PdD is not the only avenue of LENR research. There are also Piantelli and others, and, I believe, some claims of reproducibility. So we're certainly not in new territory here with the claims on those grounds.
But genuine scientific reports trump anonymous claims any day, even where reproducibility is an issue.
(4) We do hope that "MFMP's rigorous testing of me356's reactor gives us bona fide evidence of something interesting going on". But we don't need you to tell us that.
Not sure what this remark is about, but I'll continue to express my views along with everyone else here. I'll even read what you write, despite the fact that you vote for posts purely along tribal lines.
(6) Knowing who Patterson is (versus knowing who me356 is) makes no difference at this stage.
It 100 percent makes a difference. When someone is known and has a reputation on the line, they will want to behave in ways that will maintain that reputation in the future. When someone posts anonymously on the internet, there are no such implicit checks, and in the unlucky scenario we risk wasting time and money on needless speculation. Clearly.
comparable to that of the Patterson cell, which was a proprietary technology, knowledge of which Patterson took to the grave, except that we knew something about Patterson
Actually the details of the Patterson cell are pretty well known. Dennis Cravens was working with CETI during that time. In fact, Dennis still has an original Patterson cell with its beads. George Miley also had access to the Patterson technology and has been working on it for years. Patterson did not go to his grave with the secret. Patterson lost the secret. He began with surplus microbeads from NASA that had a finite supply and in a short time there were no more. Also, the plating solution supplier he was using changed their (proprietary) plating formula and the new recipe did not work. During this period, Patterson was grooming his grandson to run CETI. When his grandson died, Patterson lost any motivation to make a business of this technology (he didn't need the money). So, Patterson went to his grave not knowing "the secret". Sad story.
Actually the details of the Patterson cell are pretty well known. Dennis Cravens was working with CETI during that time. In fact, Dennis still has an original Patterson cell with its beads. George Miley also had access to the Patterson technology and has been working on it for years. Patterson did not go to his grave with the secret. Patterson lost the secret. He began with surplus microbeads from NASA that had a finite supply and in a short time there were no more. Also, the plating solution supplier he was using changed their (proprietary) plating formula and the new recipe did not work. During this period, Patterson was grooming his grandson to run CETI. When his grandson died, Patterson lost any motivation to make a business of this technology (he didn't need the money). So, Patterson went to his grave not knowing "the secret". Sad story.
Bob,
Thanks for confirming what I previously stated.
It 100 percent makes a difference. When someone is known and has a reputation on the line, they will want to behave in ways that will maintain that reputation in the future. When someone posts anonymously on the internet, there are no such implicit checks, and in the an unlucky scenario we risk wasting time and money on needless speculation. Clearly.
Eric,
I have no idea where this comes from. Who is "we" who are "risking time and money"? As far as I know the only people risking time are MFMP while the only people risking (very small amounts of) money are MFMP and those who support them (I'm one of them). Why should this be a concern of yours? And of course this kind of risk is precisely the kind that you NEED to take if you are doing research or trying to make progress.
Not sure what this remark is about, but I'll continue to express my views along with everyone else here.
This remark is very telling. What "tribes" are you talking about? I thought that we were here to seek the truth (despite the fact that for example in the case of Rossi there are massive amounts of missing information which we expect will be revealed at the trial) and also to learn more about LENR.
Jed has discussed the Patterson cell on several occaisions, e.g., here:
QuoteThere was a time when Patterson had very promising results too, with high power density. Unfortunately, he did not tell anyone how to do it, and he took the secret to the grave. Rossi might do the same thing. Until he teaches, perhaps with a patent that is replicated, his discovery is not a new form of LENR in the broad sense of the word. It is a trade secret that at present no one else has any clue how to achieve.
And here:
QuoteI assume Rossi cultivates this ambiguity for the same reason Patterson did. I doubt it is because he is trying to cover up a fraud, and I can't think of any other reasons. Patterson and Reding both told me they wanted most people to think they were wrong, or crazy, or frauds, because that gave them "100% market share." I told him Patterson he would end up with 100% of nothing. Needless to say, he took his technology and his market share to the grave with him. I predicted he would. I predict Rossi will do the same thing if he persists with this strategy. There is no chance you can keep this secret to the extent he is trying to do yet also achieve commercial success.
Perhaps the several of you can confer and arrive at a common understanding of the situation with Patterson?
I have no idea where this comes from. Who is "we" who are "risking time and money"? As far as I know the only people risking time are MFMP while the only people risking (very small amounts of) money are MFMP and those who support them. Why should this be a concern of yours? And of course this kind of risk is precisely the kind that you NEED to take if you are doing research or trying to make progress.
With regard to funding, "we" are MFMP and any funders of me356. And with regard to time, "we" are the participants on this and other forums, occasionally veering off into untethered speculation about this or that thing that so-and-so did with lithium. It is a concern of mine as someone who wants rigorous science, and not untethered speculation, to be applied to LENR, including the open source variety, so that it can be moved forward. It should be a concern of yours as well.
This remark is very telling. What "tribes" are you talking about? I thought that we were here to seek the truth (despite the fact that for example in the case of Rossi there are massive amounts of missing information which we expect will be revealed at the trial) and also to learn more about LENR.
There are clearly two partisan camps that frequent this and other forums. It is not "telling" of anything in the slightest to remark on that fact, or to note that you always vote for pro-Rossi posts. I agree that it is the truth that we should seek!
The Me356 test will be run at Me356's location. Bob Greenyer, Ryan Hunt, Alan Goldwater, and Brian Albiston are known to be traveling there, but Emanuele may be along to document the experience in video. He is behind the camera in many of the MFMP European videos - does a good job with video production (and a really nice guy
Thanks Alan and Bob.
It is good to see the participant list! The test should be in good hands! I am looking forward to the results and hopefully all proves successful. F8/F9
Bob said"Facebook"
There's a nice smile from Ryan in this video
but he mentions on FB that the data will be at google drive
Protocols are there too I think
ECW account suspended. Any update Bob?
I think they are eating breakfast right now and slept during the night. So I would be suprised if there is an update
