Rothwell: "No, they aren't. If they were, we would have seen this long ago. More to the point, in the experiments you cite above, nothing is happening. These are electric heaters with no cold fusion reaction of any sort."
Holmlid is the only researcher who has ever attempted to test for muons and he had to build his own detector.
The detection of excess heat is an unreliable indicator of the presence of the LENR reaction.
On the contrary, it is the only indicator of the LENR reaction. As Fleischmann said, it is the principle signature of the reaction. In some cases, there might be a reaction with heat too small to detect. But as a general rule, if there is no heat, there is no cold fusion. The only other surefire indication is tritium, and many cold fusion reactions do not produce it.
Massive muon production and other indications listed by Axil are imaginary. They do not happen. They exist in his mind alone, along with imaginary positive results from Rossi, Parkhamov and me356.
Link [to me365 results]? and the working in the link.
The MFMP reports were right here, in this forum!! Didn't you read them? They saw no trace of heat. me356 might use the instruments they left behind, and he might report heat later on, but so far there is absolutely no indication of heat, and thus, no indication that cold fusion is occurring. His results appear to be in error. I think it is unlikely he was getting 10 times input before but zero times input when the MFMP people were there.
Holmlid is the only researcher who has ever attempted to test for muons and he had to build his own detector.
If there were as many muons or any other form of radiation as you claim, F&P and many other cold fusion researchers would be dead.
Rothwell: "No, he hasn't. The yearlong test was fraud, as you see in the Penon report."
We will know when the jury speaks.
No, this is a technical issue. The jury might get it wrong. We know already from the Penon report. Anyone who cannot see from Penon that the test was a fraud is not qualified to discuss cold fusion, calorimetry, or -- for that matter -- grade-school level science.
Even Rossi admitted it was fraud that when he invented a few grams of "exothermic material" that magically absorb massive amounts of energy, and later an invisible heat exchanger with invisible pipes and no electrical connections.
QuoteHe said when he used glow discharge (a plasma) to activate LENR he detected neutrons. He said because of this he stopped using a plasma. But he never said what he moved on to next.
IMO Me356 still uses plasma discharge, just maybe with different metals - I mean other than nickel. But the demonstration of induced radioactivity (for at least brief moment) would prove his point, as he withdrew from public discussions just for alleged dangerousness of his experiments. Once he switched to less dangerous experiments this evasion isn't relevant anymore.
Once he switched to less dangerous experiments this evasion isn't relevant anymore.
It does seem like an evasion. More to the point, as far as anyone knows, his experiments are not producing any excess heat, so there no reaction at all, so they are not dangerous.
We get ahead of ourselves in this field when experiments fail to produce any positive results yet we worry about danger, or massive muon fluxes, or the effect of cold fusion on public opinion. Nothing will come of nothing, as King Lear said.
As far as I know me356 is not trying to mislead anyone, although he may be misleading himself. Let us leave him in peace. Let us not accuse him of anything. If, several months from now, we have heard nothing from him, and there is no indication that he used the MFMP instruments to confirm the reaction, I will conclude that he is incompetent. Not that he is trying to put something over on anyone. He is not asking for money as far as I know, so there is no reason to think he is up to no good. I know of many researchers who wasted years of effort making stupid mistakes and not checking their work. The MFMP people gave me356 a golden opportunity to avoid this. Will he take advantage of it? We'll see!
THH: Is there any excess heat claim that you consider to be erroneous?
Axil: The detection of excess heat is an unreliable indicator of the presence of the LENR reaction. Many LENR reactor tubes fail, when the LENR reaction begins. IMHO, the generation of transmutation including isotope shifting, hot spot reactor tube failure, xuv, x-rays, gamma rays and subatomic particle generation are a better indicators of the onset of the LENR reaction. For example, LENR spark based experiments by Ken Shoulders and Proton 21 produced transmutation without the production of excess heat.
So I guess that would be no - you take all excess heat claims to indicate LENR.
So I guess that would be no - you take all excess heat claims to indicate LENR.
Like religion, You can beleive what you want OR NOT, if it makes you happy.
QuoteIt does seem like an evasion. More to the point, as far as anyone knows, his experiments are not producing any excess heat, so there no reaction at all, so they are not dangerous.
Anyone? For example I don't know that Me356 experiments aren't producing excess heat - Me356 announced COP ~10 and higher instead. In addition, in traditional fusion even very mild density of nuclear reaction can generate pretty intensive radiation. The sitting on table from 60-Co would kill you in minutes - but this table with half-life of 5.23 years will still remain perfectly cold.
QuoteI will conclude that he is incompetent
I've read reports of eternally glowing lamp with palladium electrodes filled with deuterium. Under the situation, when no-one of physicists still bothered to even try the Me356 arrangement I'd be very careful in judging the competence of Me356. You simply have not enough data for it.
Anyone? For example I don't know that Me356 experiments aren't producing excess heat - Me356 announced COP ~10 and higher instead.
Yes, but when the MFMP went there to verify that claim, they found no excess heat. As far as anyone knows, it does not work.
I doubt that a reactor that produced a COP of ~10 suddenly stopped working, and the operator could not make it work over 4 days. That seems unlikely. I cannot be sure. But it has been a week and me356 has reported nothing. If several more weeks pass without any data from me356 showing excess heat, I think it will be safe to conclude the reactor does not work and it never did work.
My point is, the data from MFMP is all we have to go on. me356 has not published any data as far as I know, and even if he has, data from a good-quality outside evaluation is always better than the researcher's own data. The MFMP instruments and methods looked good to me.
I've read reports of eternally glowing lamp with palladium electrodes filled with deuterium.
What reports?!? Where? The only place I know of is the movie script for "The Saint." That's not exactly a report, although Mallove and Hagelstein contributed to it. Hagelstein's contributions were . . . um . . . featured in Elizabeth Shue's bust. I guess "featured" is the word I am looking for.
Like religion, You can beleive what you want OR NOT, if it makes you happy.
That's not science. That is about as far from being science as anything can be. You seem to believe whatever you want, or whatever pleases you. That's wishful thinking. If you believe Rossi and Penon's report, you are no scientist.
The QuarkX technology is very difficult because it demands very high temperature structural materials. This requires specialized expertise in material science and extensive testing to ensure the robustness of this material under extreme stress over time.
Rossi has already stated that he is past "Sigma 4" which is 99.38 percent yield
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma
And according to JONP on a daily basis (reply's to JPR), he is well on his way to Sigma 5 (99.977%)
So don't worry about those pesky high temperatures and unknown structural materials capable of withstanding such.
He IS the expert in material science you seek. Who knew ?
Pete
No, this is a technical issue. The jury might get it wrong. We know already from the Penon report. Anyone who cannot see from Penon that the test was a fraud is not qualified to discuss cold fusion, calorimetry, or -- for that matter -- grade-school level science.
JedRothwell : A completely agree. Anybody that only sees DN40 and 101 degree day and night must come to such a conclusion. I guess the people in the jury will be able to read the correct figures...
The only "fraud" is the 1MW figure. In reality at most 100..200kW have been produced. But still much more than needed to fullfill IH/Rossi contract!
The irony of the story : 1MW is not a fraud, because there is no damage and no valid contract to deliver 1 MW...
There is only one chance for IH: AR is not able to show the jury that his reactor works...
QuoteI doubt that a reactor that produced a COP of ~10 suddenly stopped working, and the operator could not make it work over 4 days
I think you're too fast in skeptical judgment. Just note that for example gravitational wave detectors didn't work over fifty years until they finally succeeded. If the scientists would use your attitude, they would finish with gravitational wave research before fifty years already. Corona filled reactor will be sensitive to leaks and pressure changes, also the purity of hydrogen can have its role here.
The only "fraud" is the 1MW figure. In reality at most 100..200kW have been produced. But still much more than needed to fullfill IH/Rossi contract!
Not a chance. Detailed examinations of the data and equipment ruled out any excess.
I think you're too fast in skeptical judgment. Just note that for example gravitational wave detectors didn't work over fifty years until they finally succeeded.
I am quite familiar with cold fusion experiments failing at the worst possible moment. However, me356 claimed that he had a robust, high powered system with a high input to output ratio. Obviously he did not. He was exaggerating at best, deluded or dishonest at worst. I am not saying I am sure he is wrong, but that is my estimate of the situation at this time, given these results. I would be happy to be proved wrong sometime in the coming weeks.
He claimed he had multiple units. If this one stopped, he should have brought out another. I think he claimed the others were not covered up. How long would it take to cover them? That excuse does not pass the smell test.
If he had said beforehand, "it works sometimes and then it stop working for unknown reasons" or something like that, I would not be so doubtful.
That's not science. That is about as far from being science as anything can be. You seem to believe whatever you want, or whatever pleases you. That's wishful thinking. If you believe Rossi and Penon's report, you are no scientist.
I have not wasted my time on listening to you or read the Rossi and Penon report. The jury will do all the work necessary to find or reject the verdict of fraud.
There is only one chance for IH: AR is not able to show the jury that his reactor works...
He will never be allowed to show the jury. Nothing like that ever happens in a court of law.
HOWEVER, if the gadget really works, AR could have shown it to I.H., or to me, or to any of a thousand people anytime in the last 6 years, and he would have gotten the money. He would have gotten billions of dollars by now, since I.H. left him half the world to sell to. So, obviously it does not work, and your statement is nonsense.
That's not science. That is about as far from being science as anything can be. You seem to believe whatever you want, or whatever pleases you. That's wishful thinking. If you believe Rossi and Penon's report, you are no scientist.
Like you have told me many times...I am not a lawyer.
I have not wasted my time on listening to you or read the Rossi and Penon report.
You have NOT READ the Penon report?!? Are you serious? Here you are, blathering on and on about Rossi, making claim after claim, and you have not even read the report? That's the darndest thing I have heard in months! How can you know or say anything about Rossi if you do not even read original sources uploaded by Rossi himself? Your claims must be entirely based on your own imagination, without a shred of evidence to back them up. You have made no attempt to understand the actual claim.
I am amazed you admit this. You just told us that you are utterly ignorant and you have no business commenting on this. That is, at least, honest of you. Or it is chutzpah. It is as if you has spent months writing essay after essay about movies by Kurosawa, and then in passing casually admitted, "by the way, I have never actually seen a movie by Kurosawa."
This is mind-boggling. From now on, whenever you say anything about Rossi, I hope someone reminds you that you yourself informed us that you know nothing and you have no basis for any assertion about him, positive or negative.
This is mind-boggling.
I have come to the conclusion that Rossi, IH and you as a supporter of IH among others will be screwed over by the LENR reaction. Someday the govenment will be forced to regulate the LENR reaction and all this sound and fury will signifying nothing.
LENR is but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Like some others around here, I will just sit back, get the popcorn out, and see what the future brings.
Jed, don't get all wrapped up in this stuff, forget the money, it is an illusion, sit back and enjoy whatever life you have remaining.
