me356: Photos of AURA control unit

Quote from me356

I am also convinced that there is so many LENR materials available that it can't be denied. You are served with undeniable facts. But as you can see, even this is not enough for normal people. You need a real product to be convinced. Even after independent tests there will be doubts. But if you can buy and use it, there will be no doubt anymore.

There are certainly many who feel that the amount of anecdotal evidence for LENR is convincing. "There is no smoke without fire."

But if we accept that then do we accept UFOs, ghosts, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster? All these have many anecdotal reports to support them.

What will convince skeptics is evidence. But what kind of evidence?

As ME356 says evidence can be faked.

So maybe it depends on trust for the source of the evidence.

But trust can be subjective, trust can be manipulated and even an honest researcher can fool themselves.

So we are stuck with either a bullet proof, verified demonstration; or replication; or a working product on the market.

Recent demonstrations have been less high COP and more Keystone cops.

So far no working LENR product on the market.

Although Jed says there are convincing replications they are clearly not convincing enough for many.

Oh well, maybe 2018.

Quote from Promethian

I have to point out that me356 is a human too, that desires things and money to support a lifestyle or actualize some thought. There's some fallacy being made here if one assumes that people who have this technology must save humanity or relive the world of energy scarcity.

No one is asking me356 to give away anything.

If me356 wants money, he needs to do a proper demonstration of the heat, and publish the details in full. Then he needs to have a third party confirm the heat. There is no need to reveal any secrets or intellectual property. The device can be tested as a black box.

Unless he does this, he will not convince people or make any money.

Quote from JedRothwell

No one is asking me356 to give away anything.

If me356 wants money, he needs to do a proper demonstration of the heat, and publish the details in full. Then he needs to have a third party confirm the heat. There is no need to reveal any secrets or intellectual property. The device can be tested as a black box.

Unless he does this, he will not convince people or make any money.

Yeah, I don't understand what the issue is with having MFMP visit and confirm everything. As I said in my earlier post, MFMP are just waiting for the go ahead from me356, when he feels comfortable with another round of testing. It could be that me356 doesn't want to go through the hassle and we can all wait until everything is 'ready'. I don't know what conditions have to be met first for me356 to give the go ahead to MFMP. There are likely other factors at play here, a possible cooperation of me356 with some manufacturer or company that has some NDA in progress that could be preventing this from happening. I hope not though, as this makes things more complicated, yet understandable given the amount of investment required to realize full scale production which could be beyond the means of me356 alone in doing so.

I should also add that I'm beyond the phase of disbelief. The amount of patents flowing out of Europe, US (NASA), and even Russia and India and Japan are enough circumstantial evidence to convince me that people aren't wasting their time making up fake patent's in regards to LENR. I hope others can stop lambasting or chastising me356 over the issue.

Unfortunately, I think Rossi will be first to demonstrate his device, which I would rather see some person more honorable and motivated by a desire to do good rather than make a buck, like me 356. Time will tell.

Quote from maryyugo

take an educated guess... think "Andrea Rossi" ...

Apples and oranges. me356 has demonstrated willingness to let 3'rd parties analyze his work. He has also made clear that he doesn't intend to patent his work. Has Rossi done any of this? Nope.

Quote from maryyugo

Science is not a popularity contest. People will believe most anything... for a while anyway. Patents prove nothing.

Then let's wait a little while longer. As far as I know the world isn't going to end anytime soon, so I don't get this utter sense of urgency. me356 might just make a living out of this, why deprive him of that if that's the case? Do you expect him to be irrational and release an unfinished product that could hobble progress in the field much like what happen to Pons and Fleischmann? I mean, you do understand that cold fusion is taboo in most renowned universities due to what happened to Pons and Fleischmann? So, me356 is pretty much on his own at this point and no university will want to touch the subject.

Quote from maryyugo

I would not worry about that too much. Rossi has never done a proper and convincing demonstration. Not EVER. Not of ANYTHING.

I agree, Rossi has lied to the public via what came out from the court proceedings to promote his position in the market. So, good thing we aren't relying on Rossi anymore to make LENR a commercial product.

Quote from JedRothwell

Unless he does this, he will not convince people or make any money.

I wish that were the case! I wish that no one who made empty claims got a dime until they put up. But we've learned from different examples that where there are people with money, there are people with money who will give it away on the basis of empty claims. (More immediately relevant to this forum: another reason for asking for evidence for claims is to raise the level discussion and make it more rigorous than conjectures to the effect that "me356 or Rossi used lithium in this special way and saw such and such, so we can conclude that the right way to do things is to use lithium in this special way." We are starting from a conversation that is at a very basic level and should do our part to help educate people.)

Quote from Promethian

I hope others can stop lambasting or chastising me356 over the issue.

Respectfully, it is not lambasting someone to say, "You claimed to be seeing radiation where none is expected. That's pretty remarkable. Please provide evidence for your remarkable claim." And when weak excuses are provided for not doing so, it is not lambasting someone to say, "The reason you give for not supporting your claim with evidence is a weak one that mischaracterizes people's willingness to accept rigorous evidence."

Quote from Promethian

me356 has demonstrated willingness to let 3'rd parties analyze his work.

No, he is not willing to let third parties analyze his work. On the contrary, he refuses to do this. He could easily let people do this, right here, right now. All he has to do is publish his work. Publish the schematics of the calorimetry and the data showing excess heat. He could do this without revealing any intellectual property. He has not done it, as far as I know.

He was unwilling to let the MFMP analyze his work in person when they visited. He said he was too busy that weekend, even though he knew they were coming. That was rude. It is suspicious. As I said at the time, if I knew someone was coming all the way from the Czech Republic to visit me, I would clear the schedule and be sure to see them, unless there was a dire emergency. As I recall he said he had a good reactor but he showed them a less-good one. It did not work.

Quote from Eric Walker

[Me: Unless he does this, he will not convince people or make any money.]

I wish that were the case! I wish that no one who made empty claims got a dime until they put up. But we've learned from different examples that where there are people with money, there are people with money who will give it away on the basis of empty claims.

That's true! Rossi proved it in spades. I guess I should have said, "ideally, unless he does this . . ."

Or: "ethically, by the rules of business investing, unless he does this . . ."

Quote from maryyugo

Or with Ni-H for that matter. As long as it's research and doesn't use up tax payer dollars because it's a very low probability activity, IMHO of course.

Without tax dollars it will not happen. Nearly all fundamental research in modern science is done with tax dollars. By "fundamental research" I mean research that is not likely to lead to a marketable product in the near term, or esoteric research such as the robotic exploration of Mars.

How do you feel about government support for tokamak plasma fusion? How about "clean coal"? To me they seem less likely to be of practical use than cold fusion.

JedRothwell I hope that one day, you will start to read and understand my posts.

What you are writing here is absolutely nonsense made from your wrong assumptions and lack of an overview of the situation. Basically each third word you are saying is false. What I was allegedly saying is also very wrongly interpreted by you.

If you will ever discuss about what I was saying, please cite me directly (this mean copy and paste what you were reading - not how you understand it). Because you have real problems with understanding. This is nothing to attack you, but to say you are really not getting it. Please find FACTs. Maybe you will be badly surprised.

Jack Cole It is nice you are afraid. Unfortunately you are looking from wrong point of view. I have no reason to do what you are saying. Do you really believe there is nobody else that can make a proper measurements? How you can assume that nobody did such measurements? Do you consider certification company and affiliated groups as incompetent?

Unfortunately it looks like a children party here.

I wish you a good luck!

In academia the motto is

"Publish or die"

In LENR it is

"Xs heat or die

In LENR Forum it is

"Post ad infinitum"