Clearance Items

Quote from maryyugo

See anything in here which says a bucket will evaporate OVERNIGHT?

It is in the document I just pointed to! It is what we have been discussing all along. READ THE DOCUMENT.

Shahanan has never disputed this. He has never said that Mizuno observed a bucket evaporate over 1 week. It evaporated overnight, several times. It would have happened more times if Mizuno had been able come in to replenish the water every day. Most of the time the cell was sitting in an empty bucket, heating the air, so it must have produced far more than 85 MJ. Shanahan knows this is what is claimed, and he never denied it. You are the only one who thinks we are talking about 1 bucket in 1 week. Which, by the way, is completely impossible at room temperature. The whole bucket full would never evaporate in only a week. If you don't believe me, leave a bucket out for a week and see what happens.

Hmm, appears Mary is getting a bit hot and bothered here though I agree with her assessment on evaporating water here. Mary, suggest you leave the emotion out of this and point out the facts to Jed. I am trying to compile some information to share on this matter too.

Quote from The Real Roger Barker

Hmm, appears Mary is getting a bit hot and bothered here though I agree with her assessment on evaporating water here.

Ah. So you haven't read the document either. You also think we are talking about a week, not one night. For that matter, you also believe that a bucket of water will evaporate in a week, which is ridiculous. Let me extend this suggestion to you: try leaving a bucket of water in a room for a week. You will see that this "assessment" is crackpot nonsense.

Are you sure you agree? Has it occurred to you that anyone with a bucket of water can prove you are wrong?

Quote from The Real Roger Barker

. . . and point out the facts to Jed.

What facts? Have you seen a bucket of water evaporate in one night in room temperature conditions? Or in one week?

Have you read the document in question? I doubt it! I am sure the Mary Yugo has not read it, even though I pointed to it several times. She has no idea what we have been talking about here for weeks! She never realized what Shanahan was claiming.

I expect you, too, failed to notice that Yugo's "most likely" answer is wrong by a factor of 60.

For convenience sake can you please share the dimensions of said bucket please Jed.

New and old Cherokee/Darden debris

It's ridiculous that Maryyugo gets upset and denies people's assertions that he doesn't read the papers he discusses, when the above posts are just the latest example in a long line of evidence that he doesn't.

To repeat it once more: Mizuno wrote that a close to a bucketful (10L) of water evaporated in the first 24hrs. Mary, if you had bothered to read it, you would know that.

Jed is absolutely correct in what he says about KShanahan's argument, however, he can't provide a link to a quote, but/because it is IMPLICIT to Kirk's "calculations".

Quote from The Real Roger Barker

I am trying to compile some information to share on this matter too.

You're a little late to the party Roger: The Playground

Quote from The Real Roger Barker

Yes, as a skeptic I do find it hard difficult to express my thoughts here.

Mr Barker you are shaiteposting -- say something either funny or constructive or de-constructive either that or STFU. Be somewhat articulate. I do not agree with everyone here but I am civil. > Have an orange it is both sweet and tangy.

Also if you want me to explain what this means you can use the convo button to speak with me directly. Make to make it simple if you shaitepost and end up in clearance.You have no one to blame but yourself.

Speak for yourself. I am here to have constructive discussions on LENR.

Quote from Zeus46

It's ridiculous that Maryyugo gets upset and denies people's assertions that he doesn't read the papers he discusses, when the above posts are just the latest example in a long line of evidence that he doesn't.

Isn't it even more ridiculous that people have been answering hir for years and years?

Quote from The Real Roger Barker

For convenience sake can you please share the dimensions of said bucket please Jed.

Two different buckets were used. Read the document:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTnucleartra.pdf

Regarding Mary Yugo's estimate that the heat from Mizuno reaction is "likely" to be "chemical heat and stored heat," in a message above I estimated this is wrong by a factor of ~60. A better estimate is that this is wrong by a factor of ~800.

I compared the 85 MJ produced by 100 g of palladium to the chemical heat from 2 kg of gasoline plus 4 kg of oxygen. This is highly unrealistic, because palladium does not burn. Even if the cathode had been carbon instead of oxygen, there was not enough oxygen in the cell for it to burn. Here is a somewhat more realistic estimate:

The experiment as a whole released 114 MJ.

There was ~1 mole of palladium (almost 106 g) in the cell.

Assume that the palladium was fully loaded with hydrogen, to a 1:1 ratio. Such high loading for the entire sample is not possible, but it is an upper bound estimate. That would be 1 mole of hydrogen.

1 mole of hydrogen combined with oxygen produces 0.5 mole of water. The heat of formation of water is 285 kJ/mole, so that is 142 kJ. *

142 kJ is 803 times less that 114 MJ.

Actually, it hardly matters whether Yugo is wrong by a factor of 60 or a factor of 800. It is a gigantic error either way. It betrays grotesque ignorance of everyday physics, a lack of common sense, and a total disregard for simple quantitative analysis. It resembles Yugo's assertion that Shanahan may be right that a bucket of water will evaporate in a week in room temperature conditions. This is preposterous. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows this cannot happen. Anyone who doubts that can leave a bucket in a room for a week to see if it evaporates. Because Yugo reads nothing and knows nothing, she did not understand why Shahahan was talking about evaporation over 1 day. She thought it was a week. But again, that hardly matters. Claiming this can happen in one week is just as idiotic as saying it can happen in one day. Both are crackpot claims that any child with a goldfish tank knows cannot happen.

* In real life, with a real calorimeter doing real electrochemistry, you can measure the endothermic phase as easily as the exothermic phase, so the net excess heat is always zero. In a failed cold fusion experiment, it is always zero. In other words, you would not see "stored heat" without first seeing the heat being stored.

Quote from maryyugo

OK, sure. Do it again in properly supervised laboratory circumstances. By someone other than Mizuno. Can't do that, can you?

As I have noted here many times, Fleischmann and Pons did this hundreds of times, 16 cells at a time. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancalorimetra.pdf

Quote from maryyugo

That's YOUR writing, Jed So what stopped Mizuno?

Read the book.

Quote from maryyugo

What stops anyone from doing this again?

At this point, no one can do any cold fusion experiment. The older researchers are dead, and a younger researcher who tries will be fired in a week.

To learn why Mizuno did not do this again, read the book.

I would not recommend doing this particular experiment, because it is dangerous, difficult, and very expensive. I think the smaller-scale Fleischmann and Pons heat-after-death experiments are better. The duration is shorter but the power level is as high. The mass of palladium is 100 times smaller. But, as I wrote here earlier, I do not see much point to doing a bulk Pd heat-after-death experiment. It is not a desirable event. It has no technological advantage. It is not "more convincing." A pathological skeptic such as Yugo will not believe it, because she does not believe any cold fusion experiment, with or without input electrolysis power. On the other hand, a rational scientist will see that the other experiments with input electrolysis power are equally convincing.

The more recent gas loading experiments by Mizuno and others appear to be more promising -- assuming they can be independently verified. There is no input electrolysis power, only resistance heating power, which can obviously be reduced with better insulation. The reaction is somewhat more under control. The mass of palladium per watt is far smaller than the heat after death event with 100 g of material. The reaction turns on and off more readily.

I doubt these experiments will be independently verified. I have been looking around for someone to do this. I do not know anyone who is capable of doing it, or who has the money. I am willing to contribute a substantial amount of money but I cannot find anyone with a properly equipped lab or the necessary experience.

Quote

At this point, no one can do any cold fusion experiment. The older researchers are dead, and a younger researcher who tries will be fired in a week.

Well, then what are discussing cold fusion for? Apparently, the field is finished. Might as well move on.

Quote from interested observer

Well, then what are discussing cold fusion for? Apparently, the field is finished. Might as well move on.

It won't be finished until McKubre, I, and ~50 other people die. It is likely to die and be forgotten after that. That's because of politics and stupidity. It is no reflection on the technical merits of the research. Judging by the technical merit, every scientist on earth should have believed it after Fritz Will published. He was dumbfounded to discover they did not believe him, given his status as one of the world's leading R&D scientists.

Many claims that turned out to be correct were denigrated, ignored or forgotten for decades, such as continental drift. There may be many others that were forgotten and remain forgotten. We have no idea how many, because they are still forgotten. Martin Fleischmann used to read 19th and early 20th century issues of Nature and other journals. He said many brilliant ideas and important discoveries have been lost. He was the one who told Mallove and I about Paneth and Peters' pioneering work in cold fusion in 1927.

For now, you should feel free to move on. I encourage you to do that.

Gosh Jed, as the foremost advocate for cold fusion on the planet, you are sure completely pessimistic. Apparently your entire mission in life is now to denigrate skeptics and insult anyone who doesn't agree with everything you say. If you really succeed, you will be the only person here. Is that really fulfilling for you?