Clearance Items

    Alan Smith You did a lot of important things for LENR area and probably it produced at least many attempts for replication of E-Cat or similar. And this is part that I really appreciate. But once you entered in Russ party you've made a kind of devil's contract. This must be extremely hard and it is great you are loyal and defend what he offered to you.

    This "contract" in other words mean - Here you have Apple but once you get it you can reveal nothing to anybody. So what is actually better?

    Is better to know how this thing is working but can't share with anyone?

    Or is it better to find himself how the things are working and be able to share it freely with everybody?

    It must be extremely hard. Moreover seeing more and more comments that are becoming skeptical.


    So to say it shortly, you are doing great job but the only question is, will the fruits be ever known? This is independent from you, I know.


    The only thing that I am sad about is that it looked like Russ really want to share his findings and years of experience, initially. He is keeping it secretly and talking about it only with "better individuals". And this condition not changed for decades, am I right?


    Is there any hint that Russ will actually ever change his mind?


    Anyway, I have to thank him because without me being angry about this behavior I wouldn't reach to success with LENR. So I really recommend not to wait for anything but just make own experiments and research.


    If you really want to know a similarities with Rossi. Well, for me it is looking exactly identical. There are few guys, that are playing with reactor. And it is working.

    Or do you want to tell me, that Prof. Focardi was person that don't know what he is doing? There was some Rossi's plumber and Rossi himself and maybe few others.

    They all saw it is working and is real. And it was 10 years ago! They shared some plots, they even were in contact with other Profs.. They shared also some theory and even patents. So actually I think they provided actually little bit more data.

    After some time more and more questions popped up because there is still nothing we can hold. And story is repeating again and again. I know these are all questions for Russ.


    So for me E-Cat and Rossi was accompanied with very trustful people. And Rossi managed to play with words for that long. He shared only that much so basically anyone can't replicate it.


    How is it different from Russ? Even that Rossi and Russ have really working reactors (I really believe so), I can't find a single difference in the story. At least for now.

    Both shared nice photos, nice videos and texts. But what changed for humanity? For replicators?


    You say you have so many data you can't process it. And it will take time to go through it. Why to not allow others to help?

    Quote from Alan Smith

    @Bob. If you can tell me what the points of similarity between Rossi's efforts and those of Russ, Martin, and myself I am sure it would be most helpful. Then I will point out the differences.

    It is not so much the claims in themselves, but the way the are proclaimed!


    For instance, "end of the fuel age", "dancing gamas at will", "works every time", "sooner than later", or that respected entities are visiting and reviewing the tests.

    These are announcements that strongly indicate that proven and reliable attributes have been verified and controlled. These paint a very expected picture that working LENR has been not only obtained but verified or close to it. At least, I think the majority of people would read that or similar.


    Several of the LENR experimentalist have made similar claims. Certainly Rossi, almost every six months. Whether it be his proclaimed production of eCats that will revolutionize energy production or his "visiting aero-space engineers" that no one ever hears from or is identified, Others such as ME356 made bold claims and showed a few photos.


    So again, please do not think I am negative on your group's work, progress or intentions. It is just that many (most?) here have been burned too many times on claims of "sooner than later" or "works every time" or "it is being verified by independent parties" and that none have turned out in the slightest.


    So that is the comparison.


    On the other hand, you have not done this that I am aware of. Nor has those such as Higgins, Magicsound and McKubre. Even Johnny5, while presenting claims yet to be verified, has refrained from bold boasts or prophesy.


    So to recap from one who reads this forum regularly, is somewhat educated, of logical thinking (hopefully) and familiar the LENR history, still does not know where the Androcles project really sits! I do not know if it "works every time", or if results are still "unknown". I have not discerned from your or Mr. George's post if the fossil age is now over or if it is 10 years and millions. I do not know if multiple people have visited and given feedback or simply one professor. (As for Martin, there is no issue as I am unaware of any statements he has made at all, which is certainly not a problem within itself either!)


    Truthfully, all that I have gathered is reported cyclic gamma readings that have now disappeared, a chart that seems to be more of a summarized data plot, some very impressive photos of your test setup and then these widely varying posts/comments. I think one can see the similarities in "presentation" to others. Vague and/or often conflicting points.


    While how LENR might work is almost certainly a complex subject, the status of a particular project should not be. I for one, a reasonably capable person, have not really been able to decipher what the actual status is. Shane has done more clarifying that the actual authors to a point. This is simply different than what I am used to on projects that have been carefully thought and laid out, with scientific principals applied. Good, logical planning often results in good, clear and concise reporting.


    Again, this is not meant to be obstructionist, but simply feedback. I truly do wish your group success as it would surely benefit us all! :thumbup:

    @JohnyFive ,


    I think you are wasting your time nothing will convince people to freely share their life work to anonymous "nobodys" like Russ said earlier in this thread he is looking for people with credentials and morally worth it by his standard.

    "Once heat have been found" patents have to be filled thinking the contrary is naive and i don't blame them for it but the argument that no disclosure can be made before more confirmation on mesurements is BS.

    Let's just hope that esoteric almost cryptographic language of your patents protect you long enough from anonymous minds.

    The sad thing about it is that while some people are stuck in irrational fears and ego problems the last and maybe more meaningfull and rewarding industrial revolutions are happening on platforms like github , reddit or other open source platforms and driven by sometime anonymous nobodys that sometimes are neither trained in the field nor in some cases have any credentials to show for.

    This field is marginal and will remain so no matter the theory the proof the evidence until people understand what really matter in innovation in the 21 century.

    I call what i see here the Wright brothers syndrome.

    • Official Post

    Oh boy, some emotions going on here. Alan is upset because he feels like they are giving more than enough information, while others are frustrated after there was an expectation early on that this would be an Open Science project. Clearly it is not OS, but on the other hand, there is significant information being shared. Kind of a blend if you will.


    Where to go from here; obviously this has become a commercial venture, so maybe if one accepts that, and forgets the OS thing, they will find the data being shared is more than forthcoming? No more frustration then. Maybe even some gratitude.


    So how did this go from OS to making some money? I really do not have inside intel on that, but I will say that they are spending a good bit of their own money on the equipment, and putting in a lot of sweat equity (time, and effort). And, they are just getting started really, with plans to take Androcles to the next step soon. That will take even more money, money they do not have enough of. So money, and the need for more, plays a part. Attracting investors may be necessary to complete the R/D, and having an IP to sell will help in that.


    Another factor, is that when this first started, it may not have appeared robust enough to commercialize. Seemed like a nice little gift to humanity. However, as they went along, it became more and more apparent it has great potential. Why not try and make a buck off of it then? Nothing wrong cashing in on your hard work, recoup your money, and save the planet at the same time. And if you read Russ's latest column, he already has some ideas for a commercial product. Great article BTW.


    That segues right into the topic of competition. Give the recipe and operating technique away right now, and there are others that lay in wait here, who may/will scoop it up, and turn it into their IP. Even PFDs admitted last night there are money people who monitor us, but we already knew that. So do Alan and Russ. If anything else, IH needs a competitor, and now they have it. :)


    I think when you really look at why they went commercial, it makes a lot of sense. In their shoes, I doubt any of us would stick to the OS game plan. It has it's place for the small discoveries, but capitalism works better for the big ones.

    Alan Smith I think that Rossi was using his own money from the beginning too. Only years later he was trying to attract investors or a licensee.


    I know that to give away something of that importance is uneasy for human. The problem is from the start. He did not revealed anything even that there were just hints of success. So it is not about what he will not do now but what he didn't in past.


    Well, I found something and I am sharing everything I can without any hesitation. This must be done as fast as possible.


    And I really hope that my findings will help humanity. I am spending my money too and don't want anything in return.



    But your logic is - we can't give it to the trolls so we will not give it to anyone. RIP people that need it. I am sorry, it will be better to not continue.

    • Official Post
    Quote from JohnyFive

    Well, I found something and I am sharing everything I can without any hesitation. This must be done as fast as possible.


    Yes. Sharing so much that quite a few people doubt that you are 'for real' at all. No photos, no data, no name, no track record.



    Quote from JohnyFive

    But your logic is - we can't give it to the trolls so we will not give it to anyone. RIP people that need it. I am sorry, it will be better to not continue.


    If that's what you think I think you need a refresher course in logic and life.

    My logic is that I can share recipe and will help all replicators until it will work for them.

    Why? Why not. Because I don't expect that more money can give me better life.


    So you think it is better to be well known person but to not give away basically key technology for humanity?

    So anonymous that is trying to reveal all he can is bad? Yeah, because he is anonymous...


    Something is strange here..

    Quote from Alan Smith

    So we give it to the trolls to protect us from the trolls? I admire your logic!

    There is a distinction in the motivation of people who want the IP. As you well know, the people who are committed to the open source approach will advance the research into the LENR reaction and share their IP with others. The lawyers who are employed by the IP trolls will work to restrict the access to the research into the LENR reaction unless the IP trolls receive a licence fee for access and use of the IP into the LENR reaction.


    There may be a legal mechanism that needs to be imposed on the use of IP so that a person who gets the IP from open source is required to stay out of the commercial use of the IP and to require that any additional IP that they produce must be exclusively added to the open source collective IP library.


    To the best of my knowledge, me356 was a member of MFMP, an open source collective. me356 used the data and the methods that was openly shared within that collective to develop his commercial product. me356 eventually when dark after his IP became commercially viable. MFMP encourages commercial use of any IP that they uncover since MFMP does not intend to enter the marketplace.


    Other members of MFMP have moved on from MFMP and are now working for IH (an IP troll) to develop IP in exchange for support of their continuing research.


    Open source seems to be a training ground for LENR supporters who eventually move on in an attempt to develop a commercial product. Due to the complexities of the LENR reaction, it seems to me that all these commercial developers die before they can field their products in the marketplace and their trove of hard won IP is lost to the grave.


    What the IP developer should do is find a trustworthy and powerful industrial company to partner with so that this company can move their LENR IP into commercialization after they are gone. Yes, LENR is a no win activity...a lot of pain and no gain.

    Quote from seven_of_twenty

    Rossi was using money obtained from other confidence schemes (con jobs). For decades, certainly since Petroldragon, Rossi has lived off of lies, deception and illegal activities. For example, much of the money to make original ecats came from the totally failed project for the US Army to make high efficiency thermoelectric converters. Rossi ripped off millions with that obvious scam. His excuse? The dog ate his homework (there was a fire). There is nothing in Rossi's past to suggest that in the past three decades, he has made his own money legitimately. And the only possibly legitimate business he has now is real estate investment using ill begotten gains -- a process essentially akin to money laundering.

    This post is off topic and should be moved to clearance. This is not a thread that covers Rossi and his behavior. There are other threads that cover this perceptive.

    • Official Post
    Quote from axil

    What the IP developer should do is find a trustworthy and powerful industrial company to partner with so that this company can move their LENR IP into commercialization after they are gone.


    And...


    Quote from axil

    Other members of MFMP have moved on from MFMP and are now working for IH (an IP troll) to develop IP in exchange for support of their continuing research.


    I'm confused. Do these trolls look like the ones in comic-books? Is that how we tell them from honest traders?

    Quote from Alan Smith

    And...



    I'm confused. Do these trolls look like the ones in comic-books? Is that how we tell them from honest traders?

    You must have had a sheltered education.


    See


    Patent troll


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll


    Gaming the system...This is what IH aspires to become.


    https://www.cnet.com/news/insi…st-hated-company-in-tech/


    Inside Intellectual Ventures, the most hated company in tech

    Nathan Myhrvold and other executives at the controversial company say critics simply don't understand what they're doing. CNET went behind the scenes to understand what 40,000 patents and an unapologetic plan to make money from them really means.


    Last year, Intellectual Ventures disclosed that it had generated $2 billion in license revenues from its patents.


    It won't be long before these parasites start their accumulation of LENR patents.

    I see presumption on all sides of the perspectives outlined in this thread. Sometimes entertaining, sometimes enlightening, sometimes scary/disturbing.


    Can we all just get along?


    Yes. We can.


    When we do, we maximally thrive.


    Internecine energy drops.


    We relax.


    Ahhhh.

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