Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

  • I think there was more to it than that. The trial seemed to stop for two days after a mistrial, but Dewey made a cryptic post each evening, suggesting some rumblings were happening beneath the surface.

    I doubt that Dewey expected the settlement: Abd wrote on ECW that Dewey is angry at the outcome of the trial. And I understand it ..... after shouting like a maniac and throwing threats right, left and centre it's normal for him to be disappointed.

  • On second thought the phenomenon to be studied is there, but pertains to sociology and or psychology only.

    No AndreaS. If that was true IH would never settled and the ECAT have never passed the IH test done in Ferrara.

    Sociology and Psychology are good to study this Forum.

  • SSC - the fabricating spin continues unabated - I realize that you cannot help yourself and that it is your mission so for the record, I have not spoken to anybody and nobody knows how I feel about the litigation outcome. The aforementioned fireworks were for Siffer and Kevmo getting banned on July 4th. Looks like you have nice weather this weekend so enjoy.

  • Rossi unfortunately has a very long list of former supporters who are now more enemies!

    Most people I know who worked with Rossi in the lab hate his guts. One soft-spoken academic scientist said, "if I ever meet Rossi again I will punch him in the nose."

    I do not know how Levi et al. feel about him. I guess they still support him. Penon is his paid lap dog so he doesn't count. I guess Lewan still likes him, but he is not a scientist who worked with Rossi in the lab, so he is in another category. Needless to say, many people here are still in thrall of him. Or at least, they say they are. I wonder how many of them would invest $1,000 in his next scam . . .

    I had mixed feelings about him all along, until I saw some of the Penon data. That made me think he must be grossly incompetent, and he must be making up numbers on days when he did not bother to record the data. Then the revelations of the lawsuit docket convinced me that he is an appalling fraud. Much worse than I imagined. I misjudged him for many years. As Franklin said, experience is a dear teacher but a fool will learn at no other.

  • the vast majority of critics against Rossi was triggered by economic interest and had not any scientific ground.

    This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen you write - and believe me, there's a lot of competition.

    Oh poor Dewey. How are you ? What about all your predictions about the trial?

    Terribly bad form. In fact, you disgrace yourself.

  • OK, my computation was 4.3 but I did simplify to one average temperature throughout the dogbone. Maybe you split (the hairs and) the cylinder into sections as in Lugano and this explains some difference. Glad that we are substantially in agreement.

    Firstly, my version from the 2017 re-test, although it should have been very close to the same.

    I used a lower average temperature also, (you used 1524 C ?) using the Optris software and the wide main tube box and small caps boxes seen in my image. The recursive method was used, which arrived at different emissivities than the starting emissivity settings.

    I used this calculator for radiant and convective power: Convection Wizard

    Most importantly, using the wide average does not in fact work well with the MFMP device. The Lugano device is much more isothermal along the main tube length than the MFMP version, and has hotter caps with better heat distribution than the MFMP device due to 1/3 of the calibrated resistance wire length being within the caps (three phases, three wires heating each cap). Whoever designed the Lugano device did a good job at getting good, even heat distribution, even if it is a pain to power up.

    The Professors did a good thing in making the small measuring areas in the Lugano report, despite it being possibly not as necessary (compared to the MPMP version) considering the even heat characteristics of the Lugano device.

    It is, however, critical for unevenly heated devices, like the MFMP version (Alan G, it was plenty good for the purpose, this is not a criticism of your device). The temperature averaging of the Optris measuring box is not effective for radiant power calculating if the temperature range in the box has a wide range. Double-checking my work, the 0.95 emissivity setting (top boxes) from the same image was trending towards a COP of just under 2 using the long measuring box (image re-posted below). A quick test with a three boxes over the main device body (ribbed tube area) dropped the calculated COP much closer to 1. I made a copy of the Lugano measuring areas as a layout for the Optris, (posted here in a zip file a few months ago), and will try that out.

    I bet I will get really close to COP 1 when overlain over the MFMP RAVI file using those boxes and calculating the individual areas, then summing them up.

    Then using the recursive method and the Plot 1 as used in the Lugano report (see the bottom image below) at the same temperature I predict a calculated COP of about 3.2

  • You mean the quarkX is a scaled down plasma lamp with a tiny RF source. I see, but what about the energy gains? What is it that turns a 70% efficiency into 7000% ?

    Yep, RF excited plasma lamps have been around for ages for uv curing and other applications, only the QuackX is good for nothing (except perhaps another bobble to try to "entice" people to provide money).

  • I'd rather believe in leprechauns than in Rossi.

    I'd rather believe in astrology than in LENR.

    Sorry for that. May be.

  • So, who owns now the miraculous steam generator, which generates 1 MW steam with just 20kW el. power supply?

    Supposed to be IH. - Hey, they should operate it somewhere in NC (hire Fabiani as consultant again), make big bucks with it, so that the poor investors (e.g. WPCT shareholders) regain at least some of the loss.

    Or does Rossi own the plant?

    Well, in that case the "customer" (JMP or their "parent company") suppose to purchase the plant (and several more) now, and "put it in operation" in their facilities in Europe - and save big bucks on their electrical bills.

    Of course, neither one of this scenario will happen.

    The containers will corrode somewhere in Miami or NC, Rossi will keep his faithful followers happy with some blog comments about how marvelous the QuarkX is going to perform (when sigma infinity is reached) - and most ones of the WPCT investors (who pays part of the bill in this fiasco) will even not realize that some of their bucks ended up in Miami condos and lawyers fees - because only the couple of people here are following the story.

    Shame on all players which made this whole farce happen!

    • Official Post

    People can be right on one subject and deeply wrong on another.

    The sad point is that I see it is mostly caused by emotional position, and have nothing related to evidences.

    Evidences can be safely ignored by most of people.

    Another point is that most people interpret doubt not as a suspension of belief, but as confirmation of their points, not even considering they may be wrong.

    This affair is tragic, both that Rossi still have followers and LENR still denialists.

    I've participated this tragedy by suspending disbelief on Rossi's claims, based on imprecise data on his partners (people should remind my old positions, saying Rossi have a controversial past, loose testings practices, weak engineering competences, but some good supporters like serious Darden... keep the method, and adapt to new data and you simply get my current position).

    The good point is there is nothing to suspend anyway.

    Only question is if Rossi organised a fake test to hide that E-cat don't work, or to again fool a partner.

  • (1) The IH involvement in this lawsuit was a defense against an attack by Rossi. They did not think this could happen, because so strongly against his interests. And indeed, after wasting some $2.5M each side, and much entertainment for us, it has now not happened.

    (2) They had to defend - $89m is too much to lose. Their counter-suit was a necessary legal action (putting more pressure on Rossi to call it a day). It was also extraordinarily public-spirited in putting a whole load of information about Rossi's business practices and technology into the public domain.

    (3) IH have a duty to their shareholders not to waste money. If at any time the likely cost of continuing looks like more than the cost of settling they need to settle. Unlike Rossi, who can do whet he likes and will do so, Darden is accountable for wise use of shareholder money.

    (4) At the start of the Trial the Rossi side upped the ante turning what was expected to be a 2 week trial into a 6 week Trial with a very long stream of witnesses and estimated $7.5m legal fees. Sort of death-by-a-thousand-cross-examinations. Normally no-one would do this as it hurts them as much as the other side. however, Rossi is Rossi and you can imagine what he says.

    (5) As Abd has so ably pointed out Rossi risks possible criminal proceedings since his deposition (just correlating all the released deposition evidence) looks skirting round the truth to the point of avoiding it altogether. So it must be, because Rossi needed the customer to exist, or he was blatantly deceiving IH, and he needed the heat exchanger to exist, or according to his own expert Wong the factory would have over-heated. We know the customer did not exist. We have very strong but perhaps not absolute evidence that the heat exchanger did not exist all the time (as is needed for it to do its job and prevent factory meltdown.

    (6) We do not know the terms of the settlement. Abd speculates that it is the simplest possible, both sides drop their suits. In that case IH still have their license, and Rossi has lost $2.5M. IH have also lost $2.5M. However had the case continued they would likely have lost more in legal fees. Only a win of the counter-suit, with all costs all awarded paid by Rossi, and the ability to extract from Rossi some $7.5M in their legal fees, would be a better outcome for IH. That I'd expect looked risky (I and Abd and everyone else has certainly always said that the counter-suit outcome is unclear). Therefore Abd's speculated settlement is in IH interests. It is also, obviously, in Rossi's interests, providing that the terms of the settlement remain confidential. I can't see why confidentiality would be needed from the IH side, unless the settlement was not simplest possible. Maybe IH gave Rossi back the worthless license - who knows. But I can see Rossi offering this deal with confidentiality and IH accepting it. Were I Darden, I would do so, even though I would hate to leave a snake free to slither away. For Rossi confidentiality matters, just as lack of transparency has always mattered. Rossi can continue to say nothing, drop hints, and his fans will make up a suitably positive spin (see Ele here).

    (7) I feel this puts Dewey in a mildly embarrassing position. He has been encouraging the troops, cheer-leading for battle. And now there is no battle. A shame, especially for us spectators, but he will know in his heart that peace is nearly always more profitable than war.

    (8) IH are now free to continue what they were doing anyway without a massive distraction. Which is funding LENR research.

    (9) Rossi is now free to do what he was doing anyway, which is extracting money and (perhaps more importantly, for him) internet and physical fans, with promises of miraculous technology that is always under development and never independently testable. I can't see the appalling information about him released by Discovery affecting individual devotees much, though I'd expect it to prevent any serious interest from VCs without real independent tests which of course Rossi will never allow. I believe that Rossi is primarily in this for the attention, and will happily spend some of those condos funding development work himself to keep the story going, perhaps in the hope of netting another big fish.

    Personally, I don't exactly feel closure. Two years after the Lugano experiment report was comprehensively demolished the likes of Ele, and other Rossi supporters, are conveniently forgetting the past holding up the now mute Swedes as evidence of how Rossi's stuff is known to be working.

    On the internet such false memes don't die, they transform and mythologise, as with any Cargo Cult.

    Regards, THH

  • I, too, am a little disappointed in the outcome, even if it is no doubt in IH's best interests. IH took a big risk and found themselves as a result before a potentially fickle jury that could have decided that Rossi was David to IH's Goliath, but thankfully the losses have been contained. I imagine Darden consulted with Woodford on what to do. If IH did not act in its investors' fiduciary interests, they could have been sued. Darden's hands were probably tied even if he would have liked to continue with the trial.

    Regrettably, Rossi is now more controversial than ever and will understandably be pursued by fraud watchdogs for years to come. I say "regrettably" because If there was ever a hope that that conversation could be prevented from spilling over into discussions about LENR and be associated with LENR research and researchers, that hope is probably lost.

    Anneser has learned that if you type up the documents and piece together a story that is not so implausible as to be thrown out by the judge in summary judgment, he can earn big bucks for himself and his family. Rossi has honed the practice of taking things to the edge. This corner of the Internet has become like one of those video games with the spawn points, where an endless series of people issue forth to flood the forum with weak arguments and use techniques that undermine rational discussion. A closer look at the US justice system reveals that, at least on the civil side, its practical outcome is not one of justice but rather of conflict neutralization.

    At least there is now a large amount of information in the public domain provided by Rossi and his associates under oath that can serve as hard-won due diligence for anyone who might take interest in funding him. But as we have seen with the trial, different people will be willing to draw very different conclusions from that information.

  • Abd seems to think it is possible that IH still has the licence: "I don’t know where this idea is coming from that IH lost the Licence."

    I guess we don't have any info on that. However, it seems very unlikely that Rossi would make an agreement that doesn't involve cancelling the licence.

  • Abd seems to think it is possible that IH still has the licence: "I don’t know where this idea is coming from that IH lost the Licence."

    I guess we don't have any info on that. However, it seems very unlikely that Rossi would make an agreement that doesn't involve cancelling the licence.

    Why would Rossi worry about that? He has 1/2 of the world to commercialise, and shows no sign of doing this.

  • Quote

    As Abd has so ably pointed out Rossi risks possible criminal proceedings since his deposition (just correlating all the released deposition evidence) looks skirting round the truth to the point of avoiding it altogether.

    WHAT?! Rossi risks criminal proceedings because he lied under oath thus perjuring himself. He also committed clear cut fraud. Unfortunately, these are low priority crimes compared to violent crimes or those involving much larger sums. It is not clear whether or not he will be prosecuted but I do know some individuals who have brought it to the attention of the appropriate Florida authorities. We will see. But it is not skirting the truth-- what Rossi did is perjury and fraud.


    At least there is now a large amount of information in the public domain provided by Rossi and his associates under oath that can serve as hard-won due diligence for anyone who might take interest in funding him.

    There has been damning information in the public domain since Krivit ably researched Rossi's past, since Gary Wright and I looked into and reported on the thermoelectric fraud, since Krivit interviewed Levi, since various capable scientists tore apart the various hot cat tests (Lugano, etc.) and none of that seemed to bother IH and Woodford or make them think twice about giving Rossi many millions of dollars they will never see again. Is it harder for Rossi now? Sure. But it is not impossible he will bamboozle more investors. Steorn and Sean McCarthy did, ever after all their insanely obvious failures and blatant lies. Maybe there really are some people dumb enough to give Rossi more money. Consider the comments to this thread on…ws-for-e-cat-development/


    f sedeia day ago

    Get ready for mass production and significant world change...coming soon.



    For here folks one task is important: Explain to Dr. Rossi, that world wide demand will require 200 production facilities for E-Cat hardware, not 2 facilities. And "exponential growth" mentioned by Dr. Rossi is not sufficient. It is not sufficient to have 6 facilities in second year and 18 facilities in third year. Without selling production license to 60 big companies, who will build 200 production facilities, there will heavy chaos in the business world. Who will have E-Cat in his bakery, he will survive, who will have not, will out of business.


    Mats Lewan  Björn-Ola8 hours ago

    I wouldn't be surprised if Rossi had evidence of the dissipation. When I talked with him, he explained that there were ways to introduce evidence that were not presented during discovery, and I would be extremely surprised if he didn't have photos and documentation of the heat dissipator.

    I actually think that Rossi had material to give IH a very hard time at court, and that this was the reason for the quick settlement.


    Frank Acland ECW Admin  Bruce__H2 days ago

    Personally, there's no 'drop dead' date for me. My conviction of the reality and validity of E-Cat has only increased over the last year. There's still no guarantee that the technology will be a smashing commercial success, but I do think that this settlement has increased the chances for that.

    Edited once, last by maryyugo ().

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