Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions


  • IHFB - that is an easy one. I agree, it is a win for IH. They never wanted a legal wrangle and exit with more money than would be likely otherwise. Were I Darden, no matter how much in my heart I hated it, I would do what he did.


    I also agree it is a win for Rossi over what would have happened if the case continued. He can continue his deceits and generation of interest around new non-working devices in perpetuity, leaving old ones forever forgotten, but never available for independent testers to check whether they work. He has a legal excuse for another 3 years of non-working product. That does not do LENR, as a serious proposition, any good, though since only IH takes LENR seriously at the moment maybe it does not much harm.


    Personally I hate the fact that deceit practiced under cover of secrecy, as has happened for more than 5 years, can now continue. I would like to see Rossi stopped.

  • [...]

    I would like to see Rossi stopped.


    Ever since Hollywood decided in the seventies that it was no longer obligatory for the bad guy to go to jail or die, we have all become accustomed to freely take part for the most appealing character, not necessarily being honest nor gentle.


    So in spite of agreeing on THH's conclusions most of the time, I am unable to have bitter feelings toward this lunatic inventor who bamboozled so many.


    After all, noone of us has hard feelings against the religious leaders, in spite of them being -at best- all wrong except one (whoever it is).

  • IHFB - that is an easy one. I agree, it is a win for IH. They never wanted a legal wrangle and exit with more money than would be likely otherwise. Were I Darden, no matter how much in my heart I hated it, I would do what he did.


    I also agree it is a win for Rossi over what would have happened if the case continued. He can continue his deceits and generation of interest around new non-working devices in perpetuity, leaving old ones forever forgotten, but never available for independent testers to check whether they work. He has a legal excuse for another 3 years of non-working product. That does not do LENR, as a serious proposition, any good, though since only IH takes LENR seriously at the moment maybe it does not much harm.


    Personally I hate the fact that deceit practiced under cover of secrecy, as has happened for more than 5 years, can now continue. I would like to see Rossi stopped.


    THHuxleynew ,


    I do not agree with you. Rossi is not working in secrecy. He is the most open of all LENR entrepreneurs. BLP has not given the public anything. Brillouin, same story. Rossi is so willing to give info and is enthusiastic that he is sometimes needs to retract. I am sure the QuarkX presentation will be held. When in whatever form remains to be seen.


    Cheers,


    JB


  • JB -


    You mistake PR noise, of which Rossi has lots, for openness. Rossi is a premier showman, but he needs a very selected audience who will not challenge him or disturb the exact conditions of his tests.


    So he provides the appearance of openness whilst in fact controlling very highly the conditions and personnel of any demonstration. We've seen how things go wrong whenever technical non-Rossi-approved third parties have anything to do with demos.


    Rossi's ideal testers are either old friends (Penon, Fulvio, Levi), or those willing to defer to him in matters of engineering and instrumentation. Preferably both.

  • @THHuxleynew : Yeah I think working with people you know and value is something fundamentally wrong ;)

    I don't say Rossis demonstrations are transparent or unflawed but at least he has demonstrations...


    That makes it worse. The interest in his work (and it has been very large) are is because of the claims of demos that prove his devices to exhibit amazing behavior. Given we know how he gets the appearance of validation when there is none, but those new to this story will not, the Rossi demos actually operate as deceitful PR. Better no demos, and be honest.


    If he does this stuff with people he knows and values than either they are complicit, or it is very tough on them being so misled.


  • THHuxleynew ,


    Sorry for being so predictable, but it would be foolish of Rossi to not be in charge. Of course he is not letting others than the ones he deeply trusts tamper with his products. No sane inventor / entrepreneur would do it differently. However, if products are past a certain point in R&D and ready for the market, third parties will have to involved. That is currently not the case for any E-Cat.


    But if Rossi is so "closed" according to you, name me one LENR entrepreneur that claims to have a serious product that is more open than Rossi.


    Cheers,


    JB

  • Until somebody can unequivocally and reproducibly demonstrate LENR, there is no such thing as an LENR entrepreneur. There are only LENR mystique exploiters taking money from the foolish. Note: I am not referring to researchers being funded to investigate the phenomenon. I am talking about companies claiming to be developing products based on a technology they can't prove even exists.

  • I do not agree with you. Rossi is not working in secrecy.

    He is not "working" at all! He dummied up a crude fake system that fooled no one, * and tried to extort $267 million with it. That's not work in the usual sense, and it sure as heck isn't research.



    * Well, okay it fooled the inhabitants of Planet Rossi, who believe in poltergeist heat exchangers that do not appear in photographs. Or reflect in mirrors, I suppose. I mean he did not fool anyone with an ounce of common sense.

  • Sorry for being so predictable, but it would be foolish of Rossi to not be in charge.

    Right! You have hit the nail on the head. He has to be fully in charge and he has to prevent even the most basic tests to confirm or falsify the claims. That is why he would not allow me to measure the temperature with my own thermocouple, or the flow rate with a liter cylinder. No doubt I would have seen there is no excess heat. As you say, he can't allow that. As you see in Murray's exhibit and in what happened to the people from NASA, as soon as he lets competent people test the claims with their own instruments, the claims collapse like a house of cards.

  • Wow, that was humble (too much so in my opinion), given that I usually value your skeptical insights more so than many other skeps here.


    Meh, I was feeling a bit sappy last night. :) So do you think Ecat customers demand only the QuarkX version now as Rossisays, and no longer want the LT Ecat?

  • Jed you seem very upset right now.

    I am not a bit upset. Perhaps this is projection on your part? Or cognitive dissonance?


    I am mainly relieved this ordeal is over. I hope that I.H. still has money to invest in the field. I hope that the information in the court docket impedes Rossi's plans for his next scam, but I am not a policeman and if people are determined to throw away their money it isn't my problem.

  • Until somebody can unequivocally and reproducibly demonstrate LENR, there is no such thing as an LENR entrepreneur.

    Hundreds of researchers unequivocally demonstrated by late 1990. High reproducibility is not a valid standard for scientific believability. In the 1950s, the failure rate for some types of transistors was higher than it is for cold fusion devices today, but no one claimed those transistors did not exist. Some of them worked, so there was no question they were real.

  • Until somebody can unequivocally and reproducibly demonstrate LENR, there is no such thing as an LENR entrepreneur. There are only LENR mystique exploiters taking money from the foolish. Note: I am not referring to researchers being funded to investigate the phenomenon. I am talking about companies claiming to be developing products based on a technology they can't prove even exists.


    interested observer ,


    This is nonsense. Rossi, Godes and others fit the below definition perfectly.


    Cheers,


    JB


  • Right! You have hit the nail on the head. He has to be fully in charge and he has to prevent even the most basic tests to confirm or falsify the claims. That is why he would not allow me to measure the temperature with my own thermocouple, or the flow rate with a liter cylinder. No doubt I would have seen there is no excess heat. As you say, he can't allow that. As you see in Murray's exhibit and in what happened to the people from NASA, as soon as he lets competent people test the claims with their own instruments, the claims collapse like a house of cards.


    JedRothwell ,


    Be patient. At some point in them you can test Rossi's devices yourself. Like i said, the products are just not ready for "monkey testing" yet.


    Cheers,


    JB


  • JB - that question is moot since Rossi was the only one claiming a serious product.


    That is the whole point!

  • Yes, I know the definition of an entrepreneur and by that definition, the scam artists taking money for LENR "products" are entrepreneurs. However, there is a distinction between legitimate entrepreneurship and scamming people and I think most LENR companies have crossed that line.