Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

Quote from maryyugo

It was a contract dispute. It was about who was appointed to do what and what they said. And it is hard to prove a negative: ie. the ecat information given to IH did not allow them to make a working ecat. It's even harder to convince a lay jury of such things because they have no scientific background, in general, and do not understand the facts. And the risk was bankrupting his company. Darden had plenty to fear.

Rossi denounced Darden, so Rossi had to prove his reasons. Darden would have find himself in that situation only in relation to the countersuit. I do not think Darden was so sure of the evidence he had, but above all I do not think he was afraid of bankruptcy, since by now it seems to have become his hobby.

Quote from Nigel Appleton

I don't believe anyone will buy anything from Signor Rossi in the future without cast-iron proof that it works as claimed

Would you? - in fact would you buy ANY heating device from ANYBODY without a guarantee? If so, your money deserves a better home than with you!

And if the Quackex works, how better to publicise it than to have credible 3rd-party verification?

I was referring to the demo that will take place by the end of the year: I think it will be a presentation, not a test conducted by third parties. As for the sale of the reactors, I presume that the first customers will want to have a private demonstration of operation before completing the purchase.

Quote from WMartin

He would still suffer a loss of time and damage to his reputation if the lawsuit continued. In the case of time, potentially 3 years of time, likely at least a year.

As far as I know the trial would have ended by the end of July, therefore the problem of time does not exist.

Quote from JedRothwell

Calling this "business" is like calling armed bank robbery, "an innovative financing technique."

Quote from JedRothwell

This is not "business." It is fraud and theft.

Jed as usual in this forum you are just insulting because you don't have any argument.

You forget that the trial was done with a Judge that before was an FBI officer. If the fraud and theft were so evident then for sure IH would have won the trial and eventually Rossi would have accused of some crime.

That was not the reality. IH had come to a settlement and Rossi had no charges.

Making your affirmations you are insulting also the whole US Justice System.

If you think that Rossi is a criminal, denounce him to police and take your responsibilities.

Quote from Adrian Ashfield

Spoken like the typical anonymous armchair critics who never actually do anything but spend their time insulting others who do.

You obviously have no idea at all about how difficult it is to develop something new without multi-billion dollar government backing.

Adrian I agree totally with you.

Quote from maryyugo

Lawyers are pretty good at understanding evidence. And there is a lot of pretrial evidence for Woodworker to browse. And it's mostly against Rossi and says what I said above.

By his own word Woodworker is not a Layer. If he is, he is acting unethically.

Mary did you think that IH Lawyers have not seen the same documents ? The same "evidence" you are talking about ? Did they have not done a good work ?

If what you are writing is true then IH has been damaged by it's own Lawyers.

Quote from SSC

As far as I know the trial would have ended by the end of July, therefore the problem of time does not exist.

I am figuring that one appeal was almost inevitable and two likely.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Edit: I think i see what MFMP did now. The 190.6 W is not an estimate for the whole device, it is a relative comparison value for comparable zone of temperature measurements only.

The MFMP wrote in their report : "the Optris temperature measurement was the same as subsequent fueled runs, the input heater power should have been190.6 W, not 479 W (an error of 251%)"

Is your conclusion that the MFMP compared the power of a part of the ECAT (190.6 W) to the value of the total power in the Lugano report (479 W) ?

It would explain the large error of 251 %

Quote from maryyugo

That's already been done by others. Investigations are under way. Those take time and larger frauds or crimes of violence get precedence. But one can hope we will see the Maestro of Bologna in prison once again.

Hope springs eternal. I'm quite intrigued by the hypocrisy of the pseudoskeps: we would absolutely LOVE if LENR were real, they claim. We would jump for joy. We would sing it from the rooftops. We would quit our day jobs and form new groups to figure out how to monetize it. We would spread the word far and wide.

But in the meanwhile, we are are going to do everything in our power to disrupt, obstruct, and impede any kind of advancement in LENR, throw insults at anyone who might be supportive of it, and spend our waking hours on forums spewing nonsense. Anyway, good luck with your silly efforts. I predict nothing will come of them.

IHF's comments are amazingly wrong-headed. I suppose his view must be that snake-oil salesmen and other freaks offering miracle cures to helpless victims should be supported and applauded because cancer is bad.

If you are really a supporter of LENR, you should be working your tail off to help send Rossi into the oblivion he deserves. Jed Rothwell is a good example of this, or do you consider him to be an opponent of LENR as well? I don't actually think you are interested in LENR at all, IHF. You are just a fan of a crook.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Hope springs eternal. I'm quite intrigued by the hypocrisy of the pseudoskeps: we would absolutely LOVE if LENR were real, they claim. We would jump for joy. We would sing it from the rooftops. We would quit our day jobs and form new groups to figure out how to monetize it. We would spread the word far and wide.

But in the meanwhile, we are are going to do everything in our power to disrupt, obstruct, and impede any kind of advancement in LENR, throw insults at anyone who might be supportive of it, and spend our waking hours on forums spewing nonsense. Anyway, good luck with your silly efforts. I predict nothing will come of them.

OK, IHFB, I'm calling you on this one. Any amount of self reflection would demonstrate (for yourself) how thoroughly wrongheaded your statement is.

That I think Rossi is a crook in NO way implies that I am 'going to do everything in my power to disrupt, obstruct, and impede any kind of advancement in LENR and throw insults at anyone who might be supportive of it". Or to point out a better example, there is Jed, who has done a great deal to support and advance LENR research. And there are lots of people here who earnestly and sincerely think that Rossi being brought to justice will help advance LENR. I certainly do.

And though you seem to disagree that Rossi is a crook or that he should be prosecuted, I am supremely confident that you know that your blanket statement implying ill-will towards LENR by those who disagree with you on this is a non-sequitur.

Try again? (Please.)

[Edit: this comment echos IO's comment above, which I strongly agree with but had not read until posting. It's interesting that we both instantly thought of Jed, and of IHFB's "wrongheaded"ness. Jed, I hope you take that as a compliment.]

Quote from IH Fanboy

But in the meanwhile, we are are going to do everything in our power to disrupt, obstruct, and impede any kind of advancement in LENR, throw insults at anyone who might be supportive of it, and spend our waking hours on forums spewing nonsense.

This is grossly unfair. In an academic discussion this statement would not be allowed. IHFB is free to assert that we are mistaken, but he goes way over the line when he says we are evil. He should dispute our judgement and not try read our minds. He should not claim he knows our motivation, and he is sure we are insincere.

Let me rewrite this accusation of his in the proper format for a fair, serious, adult debate:

"My opponents mistakenly believe that Rossi is a crook. They base this on their own misreading of the Penon report, which actually proves that his claims are correct. Because they are mistaken, these people think that it would be best for the field if Rossi is disrupted, obstructed and impeded. They mistakenly believe that he is hurting the reputation of the field, and reducing the chances that other researchers will be funded. They have not made any effort to disrupt other cold fusion researchers, so it is clear that they support the field in general, but they are opposed to this researcher."

For my part, I do not question that IHFB and other members of Planet Rossi sincerely believe that Rossi's claims are true, and they believe what they say. I am sure they are technically wrong. I find it mind-boggling that anyone with technical training would not instantly dismiss the claims after looking at Rossi's own data. But I will not pretend I can read their minds. I don't accuse them of being evil and deliberately sabotaging the field by supporting a fraud. Obviously, they don't see it that way. I see no point to speculating how or why they stick to their beliefs.

There is one statement made by Axil and other members of Planet Rossi that I do find unethical. It has nothing to do with the technical claims. It is that Rossi is just a businessman; this is how business is conducted; and we should admire him for outfoxing I.H. by setting up pretend companies and by other stratagems, and getting $11 million without giving them any IP. As Axil expressed it: "Darden simply got his butt kicked by a better businessman." Rossi's actions are not "better" -- they are gross violations of business ethics. Whether they violate any criminal laws I cannot judge, but no honest business I have dealt with in the last 40 years would do the kinds of things Rossi does.

Quote from LDM

Is your conclusion that the MFMP compared the power of a part of the ECAT (190.6 W) to the value of the total power in the Lugano report (479 W) ?

It would explain the large error of 251 %

I will have to go over that report more thoroughly when I have some more time. As I understand it, they compared the respective measurement areas 5 to 9 to get a temperature, and compared the power input to achieve that temperature in those areas in each respective device, but the radiant and convective power output was not considered from either device. This is why I looked at the possible temperature the Lugano device could have been, if it had a typical IR camera spectral emissivity of 0.95 instead of what was used for the report (0.69 to 71 for the main body, etc).

If the Lugano power input was indeed 479 W, the radiant+convective power at an adjusted emissivity at 0.95 only makes 264.5 W at the new, lower temperature, plus the contribution from the Rods. That doesn't match up very well.

So then if the Lugano device was ~442 C, and not ~365 C, (raising the temperature and therefore radiant plus convective power to regain the 100 C lost due to calculated emissivity changes) then it might actually have used around 400+ W. If it was indeed 365 C, it still would have required at least 265 W in, and closer to 365 W if the rods are considered, which is still much more than the MFMP suggested, even ignoring the rods (the MFMP device used no Rods, and did not have 3 hot resistor leads extending through each Cap and into the rods).

So the MFMP thermal comparison seems to have some sort of flaw. Their device concentrates the heat in the main tube, but barely heats the Caps, due to the heater coil design. The Lugano device has fully 1/3 of the entire resistance-heater wire length within the Caps and extending into the Rods at least 4 cm. So it takes more power in total to heat the Lugano Main tube in comparison to the MFMP device.

IMO

I'm shocked at how many of you self-identify as pseudoskeps. I had no idea so many of you would feel the need to defend after my calling them out. If you aren't a pseudoskep, then my comment wasn't directed at you. You should feel confident enough to move along in your efforts to support LENR. Don't be so defensive. Now, I can completely understand that M.Y. and I.O. would feel the need to be defensive, because they are pseudoskeps. Not sure why Jed, Sig, Dewey, and others are casting their lot with them.

@Shane,

I know you and others must feel great disappointment in the recent developments. You really thought IH was going to prove once and for all that the evil antagonist Rossi was out to con the world. Unfortunately (for you folks), that didn't happen, because there was no there there. Time to get over that, and move on. If you want to stick around and feel even more gutted as time goes on, I'll be happy to oblige in those efforts.

IHFB is the cat, and you guys are his playthings.

@Shane,

Demo or test, it only matters that he raise his profile. And rest assured, he will. I know that will cause loud screeches from the i-hate-Rossi club, but no matter, Rossi will continue on. He will not stop until he is dead.

Mary Yugo, Krivit, Gary W., and Fred Z. will probably repeatedly call up the local police department like coocoos until they tell them to get lost and to knock it off. Then they'll probably resort to calling 911. And if that doesn't get the attention of the authorities, they'll drop a line to the FBI, the CPSC, the CIA, and the DHS. After they are ever ignored or told to get a life, they will come back here and continue to cry fraud and con, and oh how IH would have really stuck it to Rossi--it would have been a fantastic Rossi-wipe-out beyond imagine. Ah well, some people never change.