Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

    Quote from maryyugo

    @IHF


    I am lost. I have no idea what you believe or why you believe it. You still think Rossi has the goods? You think Darden screwed the pooch? What? Maybe you or someone can explain your stand on this stuff. And do you have a connection with IH or are you just peanut gallery?


    I look at the totality of the evidence, and I believe in that. What do you know about the totality of the evidence? And I mean an honest study of the litigation record and following each episode almost on a daily basis since the first demo in 2011, and the cold fusion phenomena since 1989 (not a daily basis, but fairly continually). Do you understand the situation to that level?


    I'm not certain that Rossi has the goods. But considering the implications to the world, we should give every last iota of leeway until certainty one way or the other can be achieved. I believe in creative destruction. I believe that many industries are currently being disrupted, and many more are about to be, and should be.


    Energy is one of the last bastions of orthodoxy that is ripe for disruption. While solar has made impressive gains in the past decade or so, solar will not facilitate diaspora of the human race across the solar system. I believe that Stephen Hawking's suggestion that we do just that is wise. Solar will also not uplift the hundreds of millions of children who go hungry every day out of poverty. LENR can do these things and much more.


    I have no connection with IH or Rossi on any level, no financial ties, no personal ties, none. (Try asking Jed that about IH.) ;)

    Quote from LDM

    One possible solution to this problem would be that the "average current" mentioned in the report is not the average RMS current but the average of the peak currents.


    That is a creative idea, but it would mean Levi et al were not only wrong about IR thermography (not understanding why band emissivity was needed) but also that they repeat Rossi's novice mistake confusing average and RMS values, because they use this average value to calculate Joule heating and hence dissipated power!


    I'd not assume that they are more incompetent than already proven. It is the sort of mistake you might suppose Ele or rb0 (from technical posts here) to make, but surely not credentialed scientists? :)

    • Official Post
    Quote from IH Fanboy

    You and I are some of the few here that have carefully studied the record, and I respect your interpretation of the evidence. And hopefully you will respect mine in that there was substantial circumstantial evidence in support of the presence of a heat exchanger at some point in the mezzanine. You and I both know this was a central issue in the dispute. And IH chose to settle, which I think speaks volumes.


    IHFB,


    That's OK. I am kind of glad you are sticking by Rossi. With Brilluoin/BrLP taking their sweet time, me356 a bust, Suhas raising warning flags, and everyone else tight lipped, Rossi may be the only game in town for quite a while. We do need some entertainment until we save the planet, and who better than you to argue his case? :)


    Who knows too, maybe Rossi does have a little something. Many like Jed, BH just this morning, myself hold open that as a possibility...largely due his earlier years. As you say, there were some interesting tidbits released by IH. Even they stated in response to the suit, that either Rossi did not turn over all the IP, or if he did, it just did not work. Let us hope he kept some secrets to himself. ;)


    But even were he to have something, it would be some small effect on the order of what others think they are seeing. And if so, in no way does it justify his deceitful behavior, or make Doral a success. Doral was clearly a dud, and I do not think any amount of argument from your side will change any opinions on that.

    @Shane,


    Minds have largely been made up on Doral. Jed interprets the data in one way, filling in his understanding with all kinds of assumptions, accusing Penon of fraud, Fabiani as being in cahoots, the Swedish scientists as dishonest, and so forth. Others interpret the data in other ways, filling in the some of the weirdness with alternative explanations, such as probable conservative rounding, back up units, and so forth. So perhaps for you and Jed, and some others, it was a dud. But there are quite a few more (mostly on ECW) that believe it was a significant event in the eventual introduction of LENR+.

    Quote

    He filed it because he knew they wouldn't pay him the $89M.


    IMO, Rossi is not deluded. He knew they wouldn't pay the $89M and he also feared they would sue him for the $10M because he knew they realized he gave them excrement instead of IP. So he did a preemptive strike. We'll never know which it is because even if Rossi said it, we shouldn't believe him.

    I consider it a privilege to be insulted as "clueless" and more by a Rossi disciple, thank you. I wasn't referring to the "I MW" plant as being under $10K (that Rube Goldberg of shipping container, plumbing, pumps, heaters and insulation probably cost more) I was referring to the ever-changing, plethora of public "demos and tests" "hardware". If you are such a skilled engineer, you also understand how easy it would be to prove, definitively, that something does work (not all the screaming here that the world needs to prove that it DOES NOT work), but yet there are 1001 reasons why this positive proof/testing cannot/will not be allowed.

    Quote

    The court case. With all the resources IH threw at this case, they still could not fence of a ragtag group of attorneys with no direct experience in a case like this. JD was outsmarted by very efficiently and effectively group of hardworking guys. Annesser, graduated only in 2012, fought like a lion for his friend and almost single handedly destroyed a partner (I mind you, Jones Day, one of the biggest, F*&^% ing law firms in the world) that could have been his dad.


    What garbage! Annasser's even taking the case was borderline if not plainly unethical because I am quite confident he knew Rossi has always been FOS and nothing else. I guess the lawyers here can tell us if it's OK to take a civil case founded on blatant lies, deception and fraud.


    IH settled because they could not rely on what a lay jury would do with complex contracts, some in conflict of others, and with technical facts in a field in which few people agree. They simply could not risk a large settlement, however improbable it seemed from a logical POV.

    Quote from maryyugo

    What garbage! Annasser's even taking the case was borderline if not plainly unethical because I am quite confident he knew Rossi has always been FOS and nothing else. I guess the lawyers here can tell us if it's OK to take a civil case founded on blatant lies, deception and fraud.


    IH settled because they could not rely on what a lay jury would do with complex contracts, some in conflict of others, and with technical facts in a field in which few people agree. They simply could not risk a large settlement, however improbable it seemed from a logical POV.

    @Mary Yugo,


    No, you are slinging garbage.


    Annesser taking the case was never an issue. The settlement if anything means that there were no blatant lies. There was no fraud and no deception. Else JD would have hung Annesser and Rossi on the highest available tree.


    Everything else you are writing are assumptions.


    Cheers,


    JB

    Quote

    I look at the totality of the evidence, and I believe in that. What do you know about the totality of the evidence? And I mean an honest study of the litigation record and following each episode almost on a daily basis since the first demo in 2011, and the cold fusion phenomena since 1989 (not a daily basis, but fairly continually). Do you understand the situation to that level?

    I'm not certain that Rossi has the goods. But considering the implications to the world, we should give every last iota of leeway until certainty one way or the other can be achieved. I believe in creative destruction. I believe that many industries are currently being disrupted, and many more are about to be, and should be.


    I also have been following Rossi's activities since 2011 and with the help of Krivit's work, tracked back some of his frauds from the past. I already explained how I wanted to believe him but couldn't after neither he not Levi would correct the glaring errors in their early tests using obvious suggestions from well-intended experts, most fans of LENR, on Vortex and elsewhere. What I do know and have followed is the evolution of energy scams and how they work and Rossi is the poster child with every possible hallmark. I guessed you missed that part. Elements of the current scam, all the way up to the absolutely impossible not to mention extremely difficult to use even if it worked, QuarkX-- those elements were included in every Rossi scam from Petroldragon through DOD/CERL to present. He doesn't change the tune. He just adjusts the key.


    Quote

    Energy is one of the last bastions of orthodoxy that is ripe for disruption. While solar has made impressive gains in the past decade or so, solar will not facilitate diaspora of the human race across the solar system. I believe that Stephen Hawking's suggestion that we do just that is wise. Solar will also not uplift the hundreds of millions of children who go hungry every day out of poverty. LENR can do these things and much more.


    Unfortunately, nothing known to be possible will facilitate the diaspora you mention with the possible very remote chance of occupying Mars if indeed, limitless energy could be generated and the fuel supply was adequate. No other planet is remotely worthy of consideration, nor any known moon or asteroid. There are myriads of reasons why. And Mars is as inhospitable a place as one can imagine with temperature extremes, lethal radiation, low levels of sunlight, and of course, the best part, difficult to reach water in unknown sparse quantity and absolutely no air! Gee, other than that, it's fine. No. Better to stop overpopulating and polluting the Earth. But lots of luck with that.


    Quote

    I have no connection with IH or Rossi on any level, no financial ties, no personal ties, none. (Try asking Jed that about IH.)

    I don't know what that silliness means. I doubt that Jed has any formal ties with IH but I suppose he can tell us. I am pretty sure his only reason for speaking with them, if he did, was out of a reporter's and chronicler's interest.


    Well, thanks for explaining but I am still unclear on why you get so worked up about Rossi's scam being called out. If you're going to be angry, you should be angry with Rossi, who probably set LENR work back decades -- NOT with his reasonable critics who have been yelling "Caution!" some since a few weeks or months after Rossi refused to clean up the steam ecat demos in 2011.

    Quote from guest111

    If you are such a skilled engineer, you also understand how easy it would be to prove, definitively, that something does work (not all the screaming here that the world needs to prove that it DOES NOT work), but yet there are 1001 reasons why this positive proof/testing cannot/will not be allowed.


    You would never believe it anyway. The e-Cat has been tested in all kinds of ways, with phase change, without phase change (dual circuit), by independent parties using their own measurement devices, by scientists from renown universities, by IH in which they then paid $10MM, by Mats, and the list goes on. It doesn't matter to people of your type. I don't mean that in a negative way. There are simply some people who won't believe it until they hold it in their own hands and measure it with their own equipment. And as Rossi has always said, that is why the market will ultimately decide. And I fully agree.

    Hi we_cat_global ,


    Quote from we_cat_global

    The contracts. The Rossi contracts were one-sided. Rossi clearly did not understand what he was signing and IH's contractual aggressiveness came back to bite them;


    There's good reason to believe that the contract was foisted on IH by Rossi, without which Rossi would have walked away. We can both agree that it looks like a bad contract, including the crazy 1 MW yearlong test. I think IH should have let Rossi walk away without signing it.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    Their investors. Woodford was dragged into a very messy partnership and they did not seem happy when Rossi wanted out. Darden might be good friends with them, but the negative publicity and costs must have put a dent in the relationship;


    It is true that IH dragged in Woodford, and that Woodford got negative publicity out of it. Your blaming IH and not Rossi is merely an indication of your partisan position.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    A test or not? IH knew that Rossi was setting up a test, yet IH never truly supported him, nor did they stop him and therefore it was unclear if it was a test or not;


    What Rossi set up was supposedly a contract with a customer who would pay him money for services rendered in the form of process heat. There was no mention of "Guaranteed Performance Test" in the email exchange that led to the move to Doral. There was no mention of the word "test." That is because it was not the Guaranteed Performance Test, and because it was not a test. They did not need to stop the test, because it had not started. But they definitely should have shut the whole thing down as soon as Penon started sending in reports.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    No checks, no controls. IH never really checked what was happening during the test. Their reasoning was that they would ditch Rossi anyhow and the half-bake test (in IH's opinion) would be obsolete. IH constantly setup Rossi to fail;


    Rossi, as you may not know, would not allow some of IH's employees onto the premises. One fellow flew out there and was denied access. When their man Murray sought to access the customer side, he was not allowed. One of the first steps Rossi took was to remove IH's instrumentation.


    You were watching this story as it happened, perhaps?


    Quote from we_cat_global

    Luxenergy. A website went live and it showed clearly that IH was working on something similar to the E-Cat QX. To me this was proof why IH did not have time to work with Rossi. They were setting up their own shop;


    Rossi fled from IH's close supervision in North Carolina to Doral, Florida, presumably in order to avoid working closely with IH. They did indeed start to set up their own shop early on, when they thought they had something. But that early enthusiasm says nothing about their impression later on, when Doral went down.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    APCO worldwide & Jones Day. Inserting Brian Mclaughlin as a recipient in a mail was a very stupid move. It showed the last century strategy IH was using. Together with using a company like Jones Day they strengthened their "greasy, money changing" image and Rossi's support greatly increased;


    It was hardly a miscalculation to engage one of the best public relations firms and one of the best legal firms for assistance. Only someone making an argument for arguments' sake could suggest this and attempt (ineffectually) to turn it around.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    Boeing. Thomas Darden setting a Boeing engineer up to fail. No follow-ups, despite an eager Boeing Guy, no further interest after Thomas Darden decided that he was capable of preparing the fuel and bypass Rossi;


    I agree that the Boeing test appears to have been a failure. I'm not really sure what happened there.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    The Israelis. Sending some intimidating guys with even more intimidating names in the direction of Rossi's acquaintances was a very bad move. It strengthened the ties in Rossi's inner circle and showed the real face of Thomas Darden.


    You must assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the Israelis were sent to intimidate Levi. Another possibility is that they took great interest in the test because of what it suggested about LENR, and then approached Darden for contact info for Levi and sought to consult with Levi about the results of the Lugano test, and that Levi subsequently misinterpreted this as IH attempting to intimidate him. The latter is a straightforward reading of the record. [Added later: there were a few misconceptions on my part.]


    Quote from we_cat_global

    Dewey Weaver. This guy with the traits of a small, squirrel like animal with short legs and sharp teeth, had instructions to squeeze some info out of the neutral or pro-Rossi, LENR community by bullying them, but made an utter fool of himself. After constant threats and false promises he managed to keep virtually screaming, three minutes before Rossi and Darden settled. Luckily he is very convinced that IH's other investments will work out (and thus that the shares he received will be worth something);


    Another possibility is that Dewey Weaver saw his friends and collaborators unjustly drawn into a lawsuit and, on his own initiative, sought to set the record straight and to fight the constant flow of misinformation and attacks from the ECW crowd. Given your confidence, I presume you will be able to produce correspondence that shows that Dewey Weaver was not acting independently and instead at Darden's behest?


    Quote from we_cat_global

    The court case. With all the resources IH threw at this case, they still could not fence of a ragtag group of attorneys with no direct experience in a case like this. JD was outsmarted by a very efficient and effective group of hardworking guys. Annesser, graduated only in 2012, fought like a lion for his friend and almost single handedly destroyed a partner (I mind you, Jones Day, one of the biggest, F*&^% ing law firms in the world) that could have been his dad.


    The court case is depressing, for sure. It shows that if you do not cross your t's and dot your i's you might find yourself in the humiliating situation of having to settle in an unjust settlement. I do not think they will need my advice not to repeat this mistake.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    ..and you say "they come out of this affair looking pretty good in terms of their assumptions and intention, if not execution."? How are you on stage Eric Walker? Sometimes you are a very, very funny man.


    They clearly come out of this affair looking pretty good in terms of their assumptions and intentions, which you haven't succeeded in impugning in the slightest. You have shown that there has been a failure of execution, as I suggested. That is depressing.


    Re your initial statement:


    Quote from we_cat_global

    IH screwed things up from the start and from there it went downhill. Most whose opinions i respect will agree with that. Moreover, these fine posters will also agree with me that IH only succeeded in losing a significant amount of money, time and energy. I can imagine IH are still doubting if Rossi has something or not. And that after working several years with the man. Hilarious, what a complete dipsticks.


    I agree that this has been poor execution on their part, and that the lack of due diligence looks bad. As I said, their intentions come out looking good, but not their execution.


    Quote from we_cat_global

    Annesser taking the case was never an issue. The settlement if anything means that there were no blatant lies. There was no fraud and no deception. Else JD would have hung Annesser and Rossi on the highest available tree.


    The fact of the settlement in no wise precludes this.

    Quote from axil

    Law enforcement has not time for Rossi. The white crime industry is becoming more lucrative as the prosecution rates continues to drop on a per annum basis.


    Maybe that law enforcement had no time to open an investigation on every crime committed but for sure it had time to investigate on Rossi and found nothing against him. You forget that IH lawyers have investigated as much as possible Rossi and his action and if there was something against him they would for sure denounced Rossi to the authorities.

    In fact your table explain how is possible for Darden and Cherokee to commit actions like those listed by Sifferkol and not be persecuted.


    Quote from axil

    As a fighter for what is just, good and fair, your desire for justice is in vain.


    Ohh what a noble company! I always avoided the private fighters for just, good and fair because they tend to redefine on their own what is good and what is not and sometime go far from Law.

    I would leave to the Authorities the difficult task to enforce Law. If you have any evidence you should go immediately to Police and show it, but probable you have not and is more convenient for you "fight for (your own) justice" here .

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    You would never believe it anyway. The e-Cat has been tested in all kinds of ways, with phase change, without phase change (dual circuit), by independent parties using their own measurement devices, by scientists from renown universities, by IH in which they then paid $10MM, by Mats, and the list goes on. It doesn't matter to people of your type. I don't mean that in a negative way. There are simply some people who won't believe it until they hold it in their own hands and measure it with their own equipment. And as Rossi has always said, that is why the market will ultimately decide. And I fully agree.

    "You won't believe it, therefore I won't allow you to test it" , does not hold water with laypersons or any scientific community. With an approved test method and parties, one's "beliefs" have nothing to do with it, that pesky old "mathematics smokescreen" prove it. Yes, that is what customers, licensees, buyers, investors, verification experts/organizations characteristically do, and are allowed to do, is measure using their own equipment and proven/agreed methods, simple as that (which, despite the proclamations here, can easily be done at the same time protecting any trade secrets) which may be done in a plethora of ways for any of Rossi's Creations. Do you think UL or CE labs, etc. are going to let Rossi (or his "representatives") design the testing, instrument and test his own "product", and compile the results? If there is doubt in the results or improvements needed in the methodology, the parties make changes and do the test over--simple. Even forgetting past escapades with IH, it still begs the question---why not do a simple approved/accepted test of ANY one basic "design" and quell all the questions, get all the resources needed to refine and manufacture, and be a bazillionaire, win the Nobel prize, be known as the persons that helped save the world, as quickly as possible? There are not many logical answers to that question (and your answers, at least to 99.9+% of the public or scientific community, are NOT the logical ones).

    Quote from Eric Walker

    they drew from a test such as the Lugano test,

    The Lugano test has nothing to do with IH, the contract and the Doral test.......

    Lugano was done many months after that the contract was signed only as a continuation of a previous test done in Ferrara. The Professors had been never consultants of IH . If Lugano was of any value for IH they would send their own expert there.

    Quote from Eric Walker

    You must assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the Israelis were sent to intimidate Levi. Another possibility is that they approached Darden for contact info for Levi and sought to consult with Levi about the results of the Lugano test, and that Levi subsequently misinterpreted this as IH attempting to intimidate him.

    You force the facts for your own benefit. A real Israel company can consult a plenty of Israeli experts in any branch of Science, they don't need to contact Levi. That one was not even a Company. Levi has seen just a person that was coming in the name of "anonymous International investors" not even from Israel just during the trial. Quite obvious that he has been suspicious and felt intimidated.

    Also the Israelis had no reason to contact IH for a contract because the IH licence was not covering also Israel.

    Quote from ele

    The Lugano test has nothing to do with IH, the contract and the Doral test.......

    Lugano was done many months after that the contract was signed only as a continuation of a previous test done in Ferrara. The Professors had been never consultants of IH . If Lugano was of any value for IH they would send their own expert there.


    The Lugano test no doubt was relevant to keeping IH engaged. My assumption is that the positive results encouraged IH to stick with Rossi despite the misbehavior. According to the letter of both the license agreement and the email discussing Doral, there was no "Doral test". It was only a claim later on, well after the start of Doral, that it was the GPT. Even IHFB will agree with me on this.


    Quote from ele

    You force the facts for your own benefit. A real Israel company can consult a plenty of Israeli experts in any branch of Science, they don't need to contact Levi. That one was not even a Company. Levi has seen just a person that was coming in the name of "anonymous International investors" not even from Israel just during the trial. Quite obvious that he has been suspicious and felt intimidated.

    Also the Israelis had no reason to contact IH for a contract because the IH licence was not covering also Israel.


    I know little about the Israeli involvement. I can only convey the genuine impression on my part that Levi's fears seemed to be a possible misreading of events. The Israelis may have wanted to go through a connection to Levi rather than making a cold call. It is common in networking to go through a connection.


    It is also possible that Darden sic'd the Israelis on Levi in order to intimidate him, as Levi contends. We will probably not find out one way or the other.


    [Added later: there were a few misconceptions on my part.]

    Quote from maryyugo

    What garbage! Annasser's even taking the case was borderline if not plainly unethical because I am quite confident he knew Rossi has always been FOS and nothing else. I guess the lawyers here can tell us if it's OK to take a civil case founded on blatant lies, deception and fraud.


    IH settled because they could not rely on what a lay jury would do with complex contracts, some in conflict of others, and with technical facts in a field in which few people agree. They simply could not risk a large settlement, however improbable it seemed from a logical POV.

    Simpler than that, they agreed to Rossi's folding (more accurate description the "IH settling") to cut their losses, basic straightforward business decision. There was nothing to be gained, and some risk of loss in proceeding (well, 100% risk that they'd be paying out additional millions to lawyers); they probably didn't have grounds to claw back all of the $10M in a counter-suit to begin with (seeing that much of that debacle was their own doing, but it upped the ante on Rossi's bluff lawsuit). Rossi probably didn't have that left in assets, and/or protected them (Florida apparently has some very liberal bankruptcy laws with regard to real-property). The speculation that Rossi's lawyers may have convinced him that their yarns (some of which may be perjury ) would be difficult to prove (and the burden was on them), seems highly likely, but mostly a moot point on IH's decision when offered a settlement.

Subscribe to our newsletter

It's sent once a month, you can unsubscribe at anytime!

View archive of previous newsletters

* indicates required

Your email address will be used to send you email newsletters only. See our Privacy Policy for more information.

Our Partners

Supporting researchers for over 20 years
Want to Advertise or Sponsor LENR Forum?
CLICK HERE to contact us.