Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

  • I think I asked the wrong question. How do you know the conspiracy against cold fusion is so widespread?

    It is not widespread. I know most of the leading people such as Park, the directors at Los Alamos and China Lake who fired researchers, and the people in the plasma fusion program. There was widespread hostility toward cold fusion from the start by many scientists, for the reasons listed in the two documents I pointed to above. When there is already widespread hostility, it takes only a handful of powerful people at places like the APS and the DoE to prevent research. All they need to do is cut funding and destroy reputations and careers. There are two steps, which any powerful insider can take. First, publish a few articles in the Washington Post, the New York Times and Scientific American accusing the scientists of fraud. Second, make sure the scientists are not allowed to respond. Do not let them publish articles or letters to the editor. They will soon be fired.


    This worked better in the 1990s before the rise of the internet, when the mass media had more influence. But it still works today.


    By the way, this was not a conspiracy, which is usually defined as secret and organized. This was done in the open. The people who destroyed cold fusion brag about it to this day. It was not a bit organized as far as I can tell. Park and the people who harassed researchers and sabotaged experiments did not coordinate. The fraud at MIT was thrown together by them on short notice, as described by Mallove. It was not the product of careful thought and it was not vetted by a conspiracy of experts. It was amateur, inept and anyone who glances at the data can see it is fraud, not unlike the Penon report. You can see this yourself on p. 23 here:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMisoperibol.pdf


    And how could it possibly be effective against high power, clear cut LENR such as Defkalion and Rossi claimed and Brillouin and Miley claim?


    No one in the scientific establishment attacked any of these people as far as I know. Few have heard of them, and no one takes them seriously. No one cares about them because they are not trying to get funded by the DoE; they are not trying to do research in national labs or university labs; and they never try to publish in a journal.


    (I am not familiar with high power claims made by Miley.)

    There are many open minded entrepreneurs, such as Kimmel, Page and maybe even Gates who would snap up such a wonder in an instant if Musk or Bezos didn't grab it first!

    Gates attended meetings at the ENEA. I have heard he is involved in the field but I have no detailed information. I have no idea whether the others you list have heard of cold fusion or not.


    Let me add that on rare occasions I have talked to investors and captains of industry from outside the field. That is, people who did not come to me for information. Most of them believe the comic book versions of cold fusion described in Wikipedia, the Washington Post and Scientific American. These investors have never seen the scientific literature. They do not know it exists. They think the effect was never replicated and that no peer-reviewed paper on it was published. If I believed that, I wouldn't invest in it.

    Not to mention GM, GE, General Atomics, and of course China! And then, there was Darden who gambled on LENR, is perhaps still doing it, and look where it got him so far!

    General Atomics did some good work. GE did superb work, verifying the effect. The project was clobbered by managers who did not believe it and who did not want to spend any money on it. This happened at several other companies and universities.

    No, I don't think there is any lack of investment potential or market out there.

    You have no technical knowledge of this research so your views are worthless. You have no basis to judge whether there is a potential market. You also have no knowledge the history of the field because you have not bothered to read Mallove or Beaudette. You have not met with government officials at the DoE or the Japanese or Italian ministries, or with Robert Park, or with investors or anyone else. You have not read what they said in their official reports. I have, so I know what I am talking about. You don't know what you are talking about, and you couldn't be more wrong.


    I suggest you make an effort to learn something about this subject (or any subject) before discussing it, and before expressing an opinion.

  • Like Rossi, some of Papp's stuff is plausible and the experiments documented (eg explosion tests). Local Chemistry professor (no obvious fraud) ... and a TRACTOR MECHANIC certifying the brake horse power. You can fool a chemistry professor, but you can't fool a tractor mechanic.


    On Rossi : I don't think he knew the difference between average and true RMS, so in this case I think he was mistaken, not fraudulent. He says (yeah, yeah) he immediately ran the hotcat with a variac, and got good results. I'd have to look into the difference between average and true RMS on the input to the control box. I suspect voltage would be pinned to mains, and current might be spikey.


    I also suspect that the swedish engineer who discovered the RMS problem quit too soon. Average and true RMS are identical at 100% (full-power) and 0% (self-sustaining). I don't know if Rossi had the opportunity to set up a long (greater than thermal mass) self-sustaining mode while the engineer was there. (Full-on ... Full off modulation).


    I don't believe Rossi invented the use of the thermal camera (Seem's to be Levi's baby, since the other Lugano team members deferred to him). Or knew about the emissivity problems. So again, mistaken, not fraudulent.


    (The customer site is another matter entirely).

  • He, Josephson, Jed, the Ampenergo people, IH and many others were taken in hook, line and sinker by Defkalion and Rossi!

    I think that is an exaggeration of my role in all of this. However, there is some truth to it. People who are willing to look at something like cold fusion tend to be more open minded than people who reject all novel claims or anything that even appears to violate textbook science. Most scientific claims turn out to be wrong, so people such as Robert Park and you, who automatically attack any new claim without knowing the first thing about it, will be right most of the time. That means your "views" have no more validity than a Magic 8 Ball, but it makes you look good.


    The other reason is that people such as the late J. Schwinger, Fleischmann and I are strongly oriented to experimental science. We take it for granted that when replicated experiments conflict with theory, the experiments always win; theory always loses. This is an old-fashioned way of doing science. Modern scientists under age 40 tend to believe the textbooks are Holy Writ that cannot be wrong and must not be questioned. Schwinger and Fleischmann wrote the textbooks and had various effects named after them, so they knew darn well there are many mistakes and many incomplete and unknown areas in science.

  • On Rossi : I don't think he knew the difference between average and true RMS, so in this case I think he was mistaken, not fraudulent. He says (yeah, yeah) he immediately ran the hotcat with a variac, and got good results.

    Some of his early experiments seemed positive, as did the first Levi experiment, as I have often pointed out. The one-year test was full-out, in-your-face fraud. That casts doubt on the previous results, to say the least.


    A person who rejects all novel results will reject the first Levi report:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LeviGindication.pdf


    A more open minded person like me will wait for a follow up test. In this case, the follow-up was Lugano, which was a bust. As I said, most results turn out to be wrong, so when you always bet on failure, you have a high batting average and you look good. It resembles a roulette wheel with 90 black and 10 red slots. Bet on black every time and you will win so often, people may assume that you are always right, or that you have some special insight.

  • http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdfMiley:


    See also: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/…kw-lenr-nanoparticle.html


    Quote

    A new organization, formed in 2011 by Dr. George Miley, a Physics Professor at University of Illinois, announced in October 2011 at the World Green Energy Symposium held in Philadelphia, that he had developed a LENR device that reliably produced several hundred watts of energy continuousl


    http://www.21stcentech.com/ene…nr-no-commercial-product/


    If you check the dates, and because nothing has happened since and Miley has never shown a high power LENR device that I know of, you can be pretty sure it was 100% bullshipping.

  • Quote

    Papp used noble gas


    NO! Papp *said* he used noble gases in a proprietary mixture to produce months and months of high power without refueling. He never showed anything like that. He did have an engine that ran for short periods when plugged into an AC socket. I think I can do that too. If you believe Papp's tale, you might as well line up to buy my pink invisible flying unicorns (PIFU) -- I am taking deposits of $10,000 now.

  • Quote

    Let me add that on rare occasions I have talked to investors and captains of industry from outside the field. That is, people who did not come to me for information. Most of them believe the comic book versions of cold fusion described in Wikipedia, the Washington Post and Scientific American. These investors have never seen the scientific literature. They do not know it exists. They think the effect was never replicated and that no peer-reviewed paper on it was published. If I believed that, I wouldn't invest in it.


    Potential billionaire investors might not be very interested in scientific literature until they had seen a convincing demonstration -- something to light lights or heating up the room. Something, apparently, nobody can provide. But if anyone could, LENR would not be a hard sell. Anyway Kimmel invested, Darden invested, Woodford invested, perhaps Page and Gates invested and we are no further along, apparently.

  • Quote

    However, there is some truth to it. People who are willing to look at something like cold fusion tend to be more open minded than people who reject all novel claims or anything that even appears to violate textbook science. Most scientific claims turn out to be wrong, so people such as Robert Park and you, who automatically attack any new claim without knowing the first thing about it, will be right most of the time. That means your "views" have no more validity than a Magic 8 Ball, but it makes you look good.


    You can count on one hand the "novel claims" I rejected and got motivated to argue about on the internet in the past six years. They were Sniffex, Steorn, Defkalion and Rossi. I was right about ALL FOUR. A 100% record.


    I also took on in a minor way the HHO whackjobs who claimed they had a 100+ mpg automobile the size and power of a Honda Accord or a free energy generator. The prototypes of these sleezeballs were Dennis Lee (arrested and jailed) and a guy named Jeff Otto. All are effectively out of business. ( http://www.nmsr.org/denislee.htm )


    So please-- don't lecture me about rejecting novel claims. I don't give a sh*t about "textbook science". And while I care about established laws of nature, humans do occasionally find workarounds, for example, tunnel diodes and negative resistance devices and many other anti-intuitive things. I don't reject things because they aren't mainline institution approved... EVER. I reject crap that makes no sense and is presented in classically deceptive fashion.


    The reason I attacked the four companies I wrote about, if one can really mount any sort of effective attack from an internet forum, is that they smelled bad. Not only did the claims not fit with established science and reasonable expectations but the presentations were sketchy, the testing ranged from poor to deceptive and the principals, for differing reasons, did not see trustworthy. THOSE are the reasons I raised questions-- NOT because the claims were novel. You really can't grasp that, can you? To you and other past and present Rossi believers, somehow that rusty crap he trundled out and the incredibly inadequate or deceptive testing he did seemed not to matter to you. You need to examine how that happened or it will happen again and again.

  • Potential billionaire investors might not be very interested in scientific literature until they had seen a convincing demonstration -- something to light lights or heating up the room.

    First, they cannot be interested in the scientific literature because they do not know it exists. As I said, the people I have spoken with believe the effect was never replicated and no papers were ever published.


    Second, no potential billionaire would wait for the "convincing demonstration" you describe, because that would rule out becoming a billionaire. By the time it reaches that stage the work would be done and the patents filed (if not granted). You have to invest in technology before it becomes obvious that it is a goldmine. Especially when it useful for only one purpose (energy in this case) without many variations. There was room for different kinds of automobiles in 1908 which is why both Ford and GM survived, but there will probably not be many optimum ways to produce energy from cold fusion.


    What you describe would be like saying in 1975: "no one will write software for these new microcomputers until it is demonstrated that they can run BASIC and other software." There were, in fact, minicomputer company managers at places like Data General who said things like that. (They said that to me.) In 1975 Bill Gates was busy writing BASIC and other software. That's why he became a billionaire and Data General went out of business.


    To take another example, you might be saying: "There is no point to manufacturing an electric car until Tesla proves there is a market for a million units a year." By that time it will be too late. Or like a Ford exec saying: "we can hold back making self-driving cars until Toyota proves it can be done and proves there is a market." No, you can't, because they will be way ahead of you. Plus, if self-driving cars are a hit, Toyota will put you out of business.

  • You can count on one hand the "novel claims" I rejected and got motivated to argue about on the internet in the past six years. They were Sniffex, Steorn, Defkalion and Rossi. I was right about ALL FOUR. A 100% record.

    You have rejected cold fusion. That's a 100% wrong record. You are wrong about the heat, the tritium, the helium and every other aspect of it that you have discussed.


    Did you predict near term self-driving cars, or that a computer would win at go, or computer translation? I did. I don' tknow how old you are, but in 1975 did you predict that microcomputers would put minicomputers out of business? I did.


    Have you ever had the guts and foresight to predict that a far-fetched claim might be true? As far as I can see, when people such as Robert Park and you find something unexpected, you always predict failure. You ignore the facts when you turn out to be wrong as in the case of cold fusion, and you claim 100% success. You always bet black on roulette wheel with 80% black slots, and then consider yourself an oracle. It is a cheap trick.

  • The reason I attacked the four companies I wrote about, if one can really mount any sort of effective attack from an internet forum, is that they smelled bad. Not only did the claims not fit with established science and reasonable expectations but the presentations were sketchy, the testing ranged from poor to deceptive and the principals, for differing reasons, did not see trustworthy. THOSE are the reasons I raised questions-- NOT because the claims were novel. You really can't grasp that, can you? To you and other past and present Rossi believers, somehow that rusty crap he trundled out and the incredibly inadequate or deceptive testing he did seemed not to matter to you. You need to examine how that happened or it will happen again and again.

    And did you ever use the knowledge you have to take on the massive frauds perpetrated by those who practice medicine (of a kind) in America?


  • Shane D.


    One of your best comments. I was not anti Rossi. Just pro LENR. I just can not stand being deceived. I mean I can not. I am still pizzed at IH for not following up on one of their representatives saying that they would fix the problem. That Doctore fellow is a scoundrel and he should retire from this LENR world as he has done enough damage.

    This is almost as bad. But the one thing I really do not get all the people I have been talking to here for years continuing believing a deceiver. He needs to go and shut up.


    How obvious does it need to be gosh... Some of the believers need to understand he is just hurting us now.

  • NO! Papp *said* he used noble gases in a proprietary mixture to produce months and months of high power without refueling. He never showed anything like that. He did have an engine that ran for short periods when plugged into an AC socket. I think I can do that too. If you believe Papp's tale, you might as well line up to buy my pink invisible flying unicorns (PIFU) -- I am taking deposits of $10,000 now.

    You mean we have the opportunity to put you away for fraud for only 10 bigones. that is a bargain if the warden keeps you off the internet. Or is this a bait and switch.

  • Some of the believers need to understand he is just hurting us now.


    Most damaging for the LENR development is the unprofessional approach of Darden et.al. who thought they could play as technology developers and financial investors at the same time, without even having the minimum requirements of necessary technical know-how. what they actually have done was try and error. J.T. Vaughn's testimonies reveal such a high degree of organizational and, above all, technical inability, that I claim them 100% responsible for the fact, that we today still not have clarity about the functionality of Rossi's technology. But above all, Thomas Darden is the one who has set-in a bloody and incapable beginner on the perhaps biggest deal in human history and has not been able to pull the emergency brake in time and find capable staff, but instead with mafia-methods tried to rescue his skin and the reputation of his investment fund, which also went completely wrong with this settlement in court. And if someone claim that all this are just peanuts and the lawsuit is a minor issue for such a big investor, then I consider that one takes his son only to such a business appointment, if it is really significant.

  • The Lugano test no doubt was relevant to keeping IH engaged. My assumption is that the positive results encouraged IH to stick with Rossi despite the misbehavior.

    This is just your personal assumption and not a fact.

    If Tom Darden had any problem with that test why he has not done some question directly to the Authors ?

    If the test was important for IH why there was not an expert ( or more then one ) following the test?

    If they had any problem why they had copied (without permission) large parts of the report (also the Ferrara one) and even figures to make patents ?

    Is notable that the test is criticized only in blogs and forums mainly by anonymous people.

    And Also Lugano now is quite an old test IH had plenty of time to not stick with Rossi anymore.

    The Doral test was real. Darden himself have taken visitors and potential investors to the plant.

    The had no problem in that phase. The had problems only after.


  • Most damaging for the LENR development is the unprofessional approach of Darden et.al. who thought they could play as technology developers and financial investors at the same time, without even having the minimum requirements of necessary technical know-how. what they actually have done was try and error. J.T. Vaughn's testimonies reveal such a high degree of organizational and, above all, technical inability, that I claim them 100% responsible for the fact, that we today still not have clarity about the functionality of Rossi's technology. But above all, Thomas Darden is the one who has set-in a bloody and incapable beginner on the perhaps biggest deal in human history and has not been able to pull the emergency brake in time and find capable staff, but instead with mafia-methods tried to rescue his skin and the reputation of his investment fund, which also went completely wrong with this settlement in court. And if someone claim that all this are just peanuts and the lawsuit is a minor issue for such a big investor, then I consider that one takes his son only to such a business appointment, if it is really significant.



    I am not happy with IH now but this does not change the fact that Rossi's Ecat did not work. I have not spent anytime on if IH did the required due diligence, as I am sure that is now apparent they 'IH' missed the boat. But Rossi is pretty clear now. But as angry as I am with IH now I can see how they wanted to cut the loss. Not happy but understand it. I have to. Nothing will change the fact that it didn't work.


    Quite literally nothing. While LENR exists! this ecat/quarkX will never be in a store in our lifetimes.

    This is no longer a question if (in the USA) that it is nuclear, nor a question if it is safe (OSHA) or regulated (state governments) or even a patent (UPSTO) this is not the one to follow anymore. We need to get on to better ideas that have more promise.

  • Some of the believers need to understand he is just hurting us now.

    In which way is hurting ?

    Good or bad Rossi has taken the public attention again on LENR after years that LENR was almost forgot.

    Look at this Forum. The most active threads are about Rossi.

    But I presume also that some people feel hurt because Rossi has the only really working LENR technology and so there is the risk that all the other disappear.

  • First, they cannot be interested in the scientific literature because they do not know it exists.

    Jed in wich Nation you live ?

    In USA Big Companies make brilliant scientific research. (e.g. IBM, Microsoft and many others )

    http://www.research.ibm.com/

    http://fortune.com/2014/11/17/top-10-research-development/


    BTW the story of Bill Gates was different and well known. Please stop pretending that somebody has told it to you. You start to be pathetic.

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/compu…es-steal-the-heart-of-dos

  • The reason I attacked the four companies I wrote about, if one can really mount any sort of effective attack from an internet forum, is that they smelled bad.

    Oh Mary...... you write like watchdog of the net.

    First of all you mix up things. The four companies have little in common apart Defkalion that pretended to have the Rossi Technology without having it and without having paid Rossi.

    So Defkalion has probably something in common with IH.

    But the others companies are OT here.


    What you think about that : http://emdrive.com/ ( another OT) ?

  • In which way is hurting ?

    Good or bad Rossi has taken the public attention again on LENR after years that LENR was almost forgot.

    Look at this Forum. The most active threads are about Rossi.

    But I presume also that some people feel hurt because Rossi has the only really working LENR technology and so there is the risk that all the other disappear.


    Which way hurting?- good question -> You know maybe it is helping.... but not that I can see it. He may have driven some folks to look at LENR. But to answer your question directly ; he is causing people that have funds away from the field. As they see it as toxic.


    I am a strong believer in LENR. Maybe if I could ask him someday.... I would say 'why don't you retire take the money and enjoy life and not get poked by all these people? '

    He won this lawsuit. Life is too short you know.

  • This brouhaha has had one good effect - it has greatly reduced the probability of good time and money being wasted on future con-artists. No-one will in future (I hope!) will enter into a multimillion dollar investment without there being good, solid evidence that what they are investing in actually works as claimed. The bar for "GOOD, SOLID" has been greatly raised in this field.At a minimum, it should involve independent replication of the claimed effect without the "inventor" being hands-on in such efforts.

  • This brouhaha has had one good effect - it has greatly reduced the probability of good time and money being wasted on future con-artists. No-one will in future (I hope!) will enter into a multimillion dollar investment without there being good, solid evidence that what they are investing in actually works as claimed. The bar for "GOOD, SOLID" has been greatly raised in this field.At a minimum, it should involve independent replication of the claimed effect without the "inventor" being hands-on in such efforts.


    Nigel,


    True, it will be much harder to find another sucker willing to forgo a true DD on the QX, but that is where his JONP and dedicated fans come in handy. Just as in 2011, he will use both to create enough of a stir in the "save the planet cyberworld", that maybe, just maybe he will lure another victim into his lair and rid them of a few more million $.


    Last go around though, he attracted the attention of a few magazines like NYTeknic, Popular Mechanics, Forbes (Mark Gibbs) that made his task finding just the right partner (naive with money) all that much easier. That won't happen again, unless it is for the much less flattering profile of a cunning conman.


    Also, back then, Rossi had Focardi, the Swedes, and Cook, who gave him some needed legitimacy. Plus, the LENR field stayed largely quiet, and even offered a few cautious words of hope. I doubt he will be able to count on any legitimate scientists support this time though, and LENR land will definitely not be so quiet.


  • Shane D. ,


    Are you in for any bets?


    The E-Cat QX will be very easy to test. Much easier than any other reactor Rossi presented. And on the contrary, i think the court case and all the documents have not only made people curious about Rossi, he now seems more legit than before.


    Cheers,


    JB


  • Most damaging for the LENR development is the unprofessional approach of Darden et.al. who thought they could play as technology developers and financial investors at the same time, without even having the minimum requirements of necessary technical know-how. what they actually have done was try and error. J.T. Vaughn's testimonies reveal such a high degree of organizational and, above all, technical inability, that I claim them 100% responsible for the fact, that we today still not have clarity about the functionality of Rossi's technology. But above all, Thomas Darden is the one who has set-in a bloody and incapable beginner on the perhaps biggest deal in human history and has not been able to pull the emergency brake in time and find capable staff, but instead with mafia-methods tried to rescue his skin and the reputation of his investment fund, which also went completely wrong with this settlement in court. And if someone claim that all this are just peanuts and the lawsuit is a minor issue for such a big investor, then I consider that one takes his son only to such a business appointment, if it is really significant.


    Not only that, I feel deceived by IH. They said "Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success." It turns out, that was false. IH rallied the anti-LENR crowd with that PR release and set the entire LENR+ field back by at least a few years.

  • Not only that, I feel deceived by IH. They said "Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success." It turns out, that was false.

    Repeating this lie does not make it true. They saw no excess heat. At one point they thought they might be seeing excess, but they discovered the cell produces as much apparent heat with only air in it, so that was a mistake. All other tests failed.


    You need to get a grip on reality. If I.H. had actually seen real heat, they would have paid the $89 million, they would be making billions of dollars, and -- when word of this got out -- they would be on the front pages of every newspaper on earth. They would not invest $11 million and then casually throw away hundreds of billions of profit from that investment. You cannot possibly come up with a motivation to do that. If they wanted to crush cold fusion, they could do that for zero dollars. Just ignore it. It is dying on its own, and there is no other funding for it.