Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

  • Quote

    Let me add that on rare occasions I have talked to investors and captains of industry from outside the field. That is, people who did not come to me for information. Most of them believe the comic book versions of cold fusion described in Wikipedia, the Washington Post and Scientific American. These investors have never seen the scientific literature. They do not know it exists. They think the effect was never replicated and that no peer-reviewed paper on it was published. If I believed that, I wouldn't invest in it.


    Potential billionaire investors might not be very interested in scientific literature until they had seen a convincing demonstration -- something to light lights or heating up the room. Something, apparently, nobody can provide. But if anyone could, LENR would not be a hard sell. Anyway Kimmel invested, Darden invested, Woodford invested, perhaps Page and Gates invested and we are no further along, apparently.

  • Quote

    However, there is some truth to it. People who are willing to look at something like cold fusion tend to be more open minded than people who reject all novel claims or anything that even appears to violate textbook science. Most scientific claims turn out to be wrong, so people such as Robert Park and you, who automatically attack any new claim without knowing the first thing about it, will be right most of the time. That means your "views" have no more validity than a Magic 8 Ball, but it makes you look good.


    You can count on one hand the "novel claims" I rejected and got motivated to argue about on the internet in the past six years. They were Sniffex, Steorn, Defkalion and Rossi. I was right about ALL FOUR. A 100% record.


    I also took on in a minor way the HHO whackjobs who claimed they had a 100+ mpg automobile the size and power of a Honda Accord or a free energy generator. The prototypes of these sleezeballs were Dennis Lee (arrested and jailed) and a guy named Jeff Otto. All are effectively out of business. ( http://www.nmsr.org/denislee.htm )


    So please-- don't lecture me about rejecting novel claims. I don't give a sh*t about "textbook science". And while I care about established laws of nature, humans do occasionally find workarounds, for example, tunnel diodes and negative resistance devices and many other anti-intuitive things. I don't reject things because they aren't mainline institution approved... EVER. I reject crap that makes no sense and is presented in classically deceptive fashion.


    The reason I attacked the four companies I wrote about, if one can really mount any sort of effective attack from an internet forum, is that they smelled bad. Not only did the claims not fit with established science and reasonable expectations but the presentations were sketchy, the testing ranged from poor to deceptive and the principals, for differing reasons, did not see trustworthy. THOSE are the reasons I raised questions-- NOT because the claims were novel. You really can't grasp that, can you? To you and other past and present Rossi believers, somehow that rusty crap he trundled out and the incredibly inadequate or deceptive testing he did seemed not to matter to you. You need to examine how that happened or it will happen again and again.

  • Potential billionaire investors might not be very interested in scientific literature until they had seen a convincing demonstration -- something to light lights or heating up the room.

    First, they cannot be interested in the scientific literature because they do not know it exists. As I said, the people I have spoken with believe the effect was never replicated and no papers were ever published.


    Second, no potential billionaire would wait for the "convincing demonstration" you describe, because that would rule out becoming a billionaire. By the time it reaches that stage the work would be done and the patents filed (if not granted). You have to invest in technology before it becomes obvious that it is a goldmine. Especially when it useful for only one purpose (energy in this case) without many variations. There was room for different kinds of automobiles in 1908 which is why both Ford and GM survived, but there will probably not be many optimum ways to produce energy from cold fusion.


    What you describe would be like saying in 1975: "no one will write software for these new microcomputers until it is demonstrated that they can run BASIC and other software." There were, in fact, minicomputer company managers at places like Data General who said things like that. (They said that to me.) In 1975 Bill Gates was busy writing BASIC and other software. That's why he became a billionaire and Data General went out of business.


    To take another example, you might be saying: "There is no point to manufacturing an electric car until Tesla proves there is a market for a million units a year." By that time it will be too late. Or like a Ford exec saying: "we can hold back making self-driving cars until Toyota proves it can be done and proves there is a market." No, you can't, because they will be way ahead of you. Plus, if self-driving cars are a hit, Toyota will put you out of business.

  • You can count on one hand the "novel claims" I rejected and got motivated to argue about on the internet in the past six years. They were Sniffex, Steorn, Defkalion and Rossi. I was right about ALL FOUR. A 100% record.

    You have rejected cold fusion. That's a 100% wrong record. You are wrong about the heat, the tritium, the helium and every other aspect of it that you have discussed.


    Did you predict near term self-driving cars, or that a computer would win at go, or computer translation? I did. I don' tknow how old you are, but in 1975 did you predict that microcomputers would put minicomputers out of business? I did.


    Have you ever had the guts and foresight to predict that a far-fetched claim might be true? As far as I can see, when people such as Robert Park and you find something unexpected, you always predict failure. You ignore the facts when you turn out to be wrong as in the case of cold fusion, and you claim 100% success. You always bet black on roulette wheel with 80% black slots, and then consider yourself an oracle. It is a cheap trick.

  • The reason I attacked the four companies I wrote about, if one can really mount any sort of effective attack from an internet forum, is that they smelled bad. Not only did the claims not fit with established science and reasonable expectations but the presentations were sketchy, the testing ranged from poor to deceptive and the principals, for differing reasons, did not see trustworthy. THOSE are the reasons I raised questions-- NOT because the claims were novel. You really can't grasp that, can you? To you and other past and present Rossi believers, somehow that rusty crap he trundled out and the incredibly inadequate or deceptive testing he did seemed not to matter to you. You need to examine how that happened or it will happen again and again.

    And did you ever use the knowledge you have to take on the massive frauds perpetrated by those who practice medicine (of a kind) in America?


  • Shane D.


    One of your best comments. I was not anti Rossi. Just pro LENR. I just can not stand being deceived. I mean I can not. I am still pizzed at IH for not following up on one of their representatives saying that they would fix the problem. That Doctore fellow is a scoundrel and he should retire from this LENR world as he has done enough damage.

    This is almost as bad. But the one thing I really do not get all the people I have been talking to here for years continuing believing a deceiver. He needs to go and shut up.


    How obvious does it need to be gosh... Some of the believers need to understand he is just hurting us now.

  • NO! Papp *said* he used noble gases in a proprietary mixture to produce months and months of high power without refueling. He never showed anything like that. He did have an engine that ran for short periods when plugged into an AC socket. I think I can do that too. If you believe Papp's tale, you might as well line up to buy my pink invisible flying unicorns (PIFU) -- I am taking deposits of $10,000 now.

    You mean we have the opportunity to put you away for fraud for only 10 bigones. that is a bargain if the warden keeps you off the internet. Or is this a bait and switch.

  • Some of the believers need to understand he is just hurting us now.


    Most damaging for the LENR development is the unprofessional approach of Darden et.al. who thought they could play as technology developers and financial investors at the same time, without even having the minimum requirements of necessary technical know-how. what they actually have done was try and error. J.T. Vaughn's testimonies reveal such a high degree of organizational and, above all, technical inability, that I claim them 100% responsible for the fact, that we today still not have clarity about the functionality of Rossi's technology. But above all, Thomas Darden is the one who has set-in a bloody and incapable beginner on the perhaps biggest deal in human history and has not been able to pull the emergency brake in time and find capable staff, but instead with mafia-methods tried to rescue his skin and the reputation of his investment fund, which also went completely wrong with this settlement in court. And if someone claim that all this are just peanuts and the lawsuit is a minor issue for such a big investor, then I consider that one takes his son only to such a business appointment, if it is really significant.

  • The Lugano test no doubt was relevant to keeping IH engaged. My assumption is that the positive results encouraged IH to stick with Rossi despite the misbehavior.

    This is just your personal assumption and not a fact.

    If Tom Darden had any problem with that test why he has not done some question directly to the Authors ?

    If the test was important for IH why there was not an expert ( or more then one ) following the test?

    If they had any problem why they had copied (without permission) large parts of the report (also the Ferrara one) and even figures to make patents ?

    Is notable that the test is criticized only in blogs and forums mainly by anonymous people.

    And Also Lugano now is quite an old test IH had plenty of time to not stick with Rossi anymore.

    The Doral test was real. Darden himself have taken visitors and potential investors to the plant.

    The had no problem in that phase. The had problems only after.


  • Most damaging for the LENR development is the unprofessional approach of Darden et.al. who thought they could play as technology developers and financial investors at the same time, without even having the minimum requirements of necessary technical know-how. what they actually have done was try and error. J.T. Vaughn's testimonies reveal such a high degree of organizational and, above all, technical inability, that I claim them 100% responsible for the fact, that we today still not have clarity about the functionality of Rossi's technology. But above all, Thomas Darden is the one who has set-in a bloody and incapable beginner on the perhaps biggest deal in human history and has not been able to pull the emergency brake in time and find capable staff, but instead with mafia-methods tried to rescue his skin and the reputation of his investment fund, which also went completely wrong with this settlement in court. And if someone claim that all this are just peanuts and the lawsuit is a minor issue for such a big investor, then I consider that one takes his son only to such a business appointment, if it is really significant.



    I am not happy with IH now but this does not change the fact that Rossi's Ecat did not work. I have not spent anytime on if IH did the required due diligence, as I am sure that is now apparent they 'IH' missed the boat. But Rossi is pretty clear now. But as angry as I am with IH now I can see how they wanted to cut the loss. Not happy but understand it. I have to. Nothing will change the fact that it didn't work.


    Quite literally nothing. While LENR exists! this ecat/quarkX will never be in a store in our lifetimes.

    This is no longer a question if (in the USA) that it is nuclear, nor a question if it is safe (OSHA) or regulated (state governments) or even a patent (UPSTO) this is not the one to follow anymore. We need to get on to better ideas that have more promise.

  • Some of the believers need to understand he is just hurting us now.

    In which way is hurting ?

    Good or bad Rossi has taken the public attention again on LENR after years that LENR was almost forgot.

    Look at this Forum. The most active threads are about Rossi.

    But I presume also that some people feel hurt because Rossi has the only really working LENR technology and so there is the risk that all the other disappear.

  • First, they cannot be interested in the scientific literature because they do not know it exists.

    Jed in wich Nation you live ?

    In USA Big Companies make brilliant scientific research. (e.g. IBM, Microsoft and many others )

    http://www.research.ibm.com/

    http://fortune.com/2014/11/17/top-10-research-development/


    BTW the story of Bill Gates was different and well known. Please stop pretending that somebody has told it to you. You start to be pathetic.

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/compu…es-steal-the-heart-of-dos

  • The reason I attacked the four companies I wrote about, if one can really mount any sort of effective attack from an internet forum, is that they smelled bad.

    Oh Mary...... you write like watchdog of the net.

    First of all you mix up things. The four companies have little in common apart Defkalion that pretended to have the Rossi Technology without having it and without having paid Rossi.

    So Defkalion has probably something in common with IH.

    But the others companies are OT here.


    What you think about that : http://emdrive.com/ ( another OT) ?

  • In which way is hurting ?

    Good or bad Rossi has taken the public attention again on LENR after years that LENR was almost forgot.

    Look at this Forum. The most active threads are about Rossi.

    But I presume also that some people feel hurt because Rossi has the only really working LENR technology and so there is the risk that all the other disappear.


    Which way hurting?- good question -> You know maybe it is helping.... but not that I can see it. He may have driven some folks to look at LENR. But to answer your question directly ; he is causing people that have funds away from the field. As they see it as toxic.


    I am a strong believer in LENR. Maybe if I could ask him someday.... I would say 'why don't you retire take the money and enjoy life and not get poked by all these people? '

    He won this lawsuit. Life is too short you know.

  • This brouhaha has had one good effect - it has greatly reduced the probability of good time and money being wasted on future con-artists. No-one will in future (I hope!) will enter into a multimillion dollar investment without there being good, solid evidence that what they are investing in actually works as claimed. The bar for "GOOD, SOLID" has been greatly raised in this field.At a minimum, it should involve independent replication of the claimed effect without the "inventor" being hands-on in such efforts.

  • This brouhaha has had one good effect - it has greatly reduced the probability of good time and money being wasted on future con-artists. No-one will in future (I hope!) will enter into a multimillion dollar investment without there being good, solid evidence that what they are investing in actually works as claimed. The bar for "GOOD, SOLID" has been greatly raised in this field.At a minimum, it should involve independent replication of the claimed effect without the "inventor" being hands-on in such efforts.


    Nigel,


    True, it will be much harder to find another sucker willing to forgo a true DD on the QX, but that is where his JONP and dedicated fans come in handy. Just as in 2011, he will use both to create enough of a stir in the "save the planet cyberworld", that maybe, just maybe he will lure another victim into his lair and rid them of a few more million $.


    Last go around though, he attracted the attention of a few magazines like NYTeknic, Popular Mechanics, Forbes (Mark Gibbs) that made his task finding just the right partner (naive with money) all that much easier. That won't happen again, unless it is for the much less flattering profile of a cunning conman.


    Also, back then, Rossi had Focardi, the Swedes, and Cook, who gave him some needed legitimacy. Plus, the LENR field stayed largely quiet, and even offered a few cautious words of hope. I doubt he will be able to count on any legitimate scientists support this time though, and LENR land will definitely not be so quiet.


  • Shane D. ,


    Are you in for any bets?


    The E-Cat QX will be very easy to test. Much easier than any other reactor Rossi presented. And on the contrary, i think the court case and all the documents have not only made people curious about Rossi, he now seems more legit than before.


    Cheers,


    JB


  • Most damaging for the LENR development is the unprofessional approach of Darden et.al. who thought they could play as technology developers and financial investors at the same time, without even having the minimum requirements of necessary technical know-how. what they actually have done was try and error. J.T. Vaughn's testimonies reveal such a high degree of organizational and, above all, technical inability, that I claim them 100% responsible for the fact, that we today still not have clarity about the functionality of Rossi's technology. But above all, Thomas Darden is the one who has set-in a bloody and incapable beginner on the perhaps biggest deal in human history and has not been able to pull the emergency brake in time and find capable staff, but instead with mafia-methods tried to rescue his skin and the reputation of his investment fund, which also went completely wrong with this settlement in court. And if someone claim that all this are just peanuts and the lawsuit is a minor issue for such a big investor, then I consider that one takes his son only to such a business appointment, if it is really significant.


    Not only that, I feel deceived by IH. They said "Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success." It turns out, that was false. IH rallied the anti-LENR crowd with that PR release and set the entire LENR+ field back by at least a few years.

  • Not only that, I feel deceived by IH. They said "Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success." It turns out, that was false.

    Repeating this lie does not make it true. They saw no excess heat. At one point they thought they might be seeing excess, but they discovered the cell produces as much apparent heat with only air in it, so that was a mistake. All other tests failed.


    You need to get a grip on reality. If I.H. had actually seen real heat, they would have paid the $89 million, they would be making billions of dollars, and -- when word of this got out -- they would be on the front pages of every newspaper on earth. They would not invest $11 million and then casually throw away hundreds of billions of profit from that investment. You cannot possibly come up with a motivation to do that. If they wanted to crush cold fusion, they could do that for zero dollars. Just ignore it. It is dying on its own, and there is no other funding for it.

  • Quote

    Repeating this lie does not make it true. They saw no excess heat. At one point they thought they might be seeing excess, but they discovered the cell produces as much apparent heat with only air in it, so that was a mistake. All other tests failed.

    Which is a demonstration, of sorts, that it's not too difficult to make this type of error, well meaningly.


    Quote

    You need to get a grip on reality. If I.H. had actually seen real heat, they would have paid the $89 million, they would be making billions of dollars, and -- when word of this got out -- they would be on the front pages of every newspaper on earth. They would not invest $11 million and then casually throw away hundreds of billions of profit from that investment. You cannot possibly come up with a motivation to do that.

    The believers here are not going to get that. They actually think IH would try to do an obvious and doomed-to-failure ripoff of Rossi to avoid paying a few millions and then they planned to run off, make megawatt plants and hot cats and make billions. And get away with it. If there was ever an incredible scenario, that would be it. What was Rossi expected to do in the event IH conspired against him in that manner? Roll over? Not to mention that in any event, Rossi still held all rights to his "technology" for half the world.


    Quote

    If they wanted to crush cold fusion, they could do that for zero dollars. Just ignore it. It is dying on its own, and there is no other funding for it.

    Probably not true. In addition to IH/Woodford, there is Kimmel and probably Larry Page and if you believe the famous "hidden signature" evidence from e-catworld.com, even Bill Gates. And the Chinese and Italian governments and likely many others I/we don't know anything about. So what will the excuse be five more years from now when nothing practical exists and the field is still doubted by the main line science community?

  • MY, apparently we are supposed to believe that everyone who has ever gotten good results in this field (and there are hundreds of them) is either dead or somehow has been prevented by the global scientific cabal from improving their apparatus or tweaking their experiments to get better results. They are allowed to scrap everything, try a totally new approach and report great success a few years later. But then, once again, if they want to do more, they either die or are forbidden from any further progress. It is a tough business.

  • Not only that, I feel deceived by IH. They said "Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success." It turns out, that was false. IH rallied the anti-LENR crowd with that PR release and set the entire LENR+ field back by at least a few years.

    Well... the court case is over. I rarely post anymore and will probably soon only visit the site occasionally. Hopefully to keep up to date on Bob Higgins actual and real endeavors! Rossi is a fraud and not worth the time spent. Do not believe me? ... simply follow him another six months and you will see that you are exactly where you are today..... the same as 2 years ago, the same as 3 years ago,, the same as 4.


    But with that in mind, I call out IHFB one last time.


    What a joke... IHFB "fells deceived by IH"! Of all things! The one "who is looking for truth" is not deceived by Rossi with his FAKE customer, FAKE invoices, FAKE chief Engineer, FAKE heat exchanger!

    IHFB is not deceived by Rossi when Rossi posted that a customer PURCHASED the QuarkX in June of 2016. That customer tests were underway and a report would be given in June of 2016! Rossi posted all this TO his LOYAL FANs on JONP. HE CONTINUES TO LIE to you, but YOU feel deceived by IH! Rossi is your glorious idol. This is beyond comprehension.


    Under oath, Rossi admitted he has no new partner, no new customer. HE OUT AND OUT LIED TO YOU IHFB! Do you not see it? Rossi could easily prove the heat exchanger, but he does not. He cannot. He could easily prove the eCat works but he does not. Rossi could have been selling the eCat in Europe for the past year, but he has not because he has nothing! Yet IHFB states he "feels deceived" by IH!


    IHFB, I call you out again. You are not seeking for truth. You are simply a devoted follower of Rossi and nothing is going to change your view! Simply admit it and stop the "open minded total BS"!

    You do not feel deceived by Rossi from :

    *The robotized factory that is a "magnificence"! - A lie

    *The 13 1MW plants that have been sold in the past. - All lies

    *The various customers through the years that "purchased" the non-existing plants - more lies

    *The Lugano test that was completely independent and that he had no involvement in! - A really BIG lie

    *The Doral customer who would not make statements about the eCat plant. - He WAS the customer! What a deception that was!

    *The Doral customer was making their standard production using heat from the eCat and was very satisfied! - What a whopper, there was no production.

    *The customer issued requests for invoices for "heat that was used in production" - Lies all! No production was made. Total deception.

    *Rossi sued for $89 million, stated the plant ran for 350 days out of 400 with COP > 80 and yet he completely drops the 1MW plant and does not pursue it himself? - How deceptive is this!

    *Rossi writes a letter to IH bragging on how he deceived Hydrofusion - Yet you continue to not hold him accountable for anything and yet DREAM up unfounded accusations against IH! -

    and the list of Rossi lies goes on and on and on.


    Rossi must be most proud of you! Your are his STAR pupil! You are mastering the art of plausible deniability. You are mastering the art of making defamatory and accusative statements with vague content.

    You repeat and repeat the unproven as if it was fact. As with Rossi, you are ultimately deceptive. You are not unbiased, but one of the most biased on this list. Which is OK EXCEPT you CLAIM not to be.

    You have no respect and will not until you treat Rossi's fraudulent, ongoing practices with the same "it seems to me" as you do IH! That will not happen of course because you are full of it.


    One last time. IHFB and others simply try to defame IH because they cannot defend Rossi by his OWN works. They have NOTHING. They can only cry that IH is "bad", meanwhile totally ignoring that Rossi craps on them daily. They have nothing to defend Rossi with because HE does not defend himself!


    How sad it must be to have a hero that has no redeeming qualities. And yet you still dream... Tell me IHFB, when will you have something to defend Rossi by other than trying to defame IH? When will you be able to hold up concrete evidence that Rossi deserves believing in, confidence in and trust? When will you start providing actual evidence that Rossi HAS something other than posting only "IH seems to me"?

    Rossi is your hero. Start posting some evidence as to WHY he is your hero. You do not because you cannot. You only make feable attempts at defaming IH. You cannot show anything supportive of Rossi from his own actions or works. Sad.


    Of course as always in the past... no logical or in-depth response to the above points will be given.:thumbdown: