Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

Dr. Rossi's new look (photographs on Mats Lewan's website) is excellent: he looks both bankable and Nobelizable

I guess our resident Mary is getting hot and bothered, as would my homonym say...

Quote from Roger

Dr. Rossi's new look (photographs on Mats Lewan's website) is excellent: he looks both bankable and Nobelizable

The toupee is that good?

I did not know they have a Nobel prize for hairpieces.

Quote from SSC

Rossi is not a scientist, he has never pretended to be. He is an entrepreneur and an inventor, so there is no reason why he should publish scientific articles. The fact that he is interested only in working commercial products (assuming it's true) is not at all strange for a businessman, who indeed turned to scientists when he wanted to make his creation tested by third parties, so I would not say that he is not interested in careful scientific tests!

I agree with you. It is strange that he published scientific articles - though it fits the idea that he is profoundly driven by PR and believes his own fantasies.

Rossi has never allowed independent tests of his creation by third parties - as you must surely know! I note the care with which you speculate about Rossi's interests. All we know is that his tests have been uniformly not careful, he himself has stated, as just one example, that controls are not needed, and indeed even the tests done with scientists have never had proper controls!

There is no way to cut this one that comes out OK for Rossi, since he has catastrophically failed both in generating commercial product and scientiific information. He has also, you should note, repeatedly lied and deceived his partners and his blog audience.

Quote from JedRothwell

The toupee is that good?

I did not know they have a Nobel prize for hairpieces.

JedRothwell,

Making fun of recovering cancer patients is beyond anything reasonable. You are one twisted, self-destructive old man, lowering yourself to this level.

Cheers,

JB

And with this:

https://animpossibleinvention.…/settlement-agreement.pdf

I think my prescient predictions deserve some quataloos:

Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

Sig? I went all in remember.

Dear IH Fanboy,

Congratulations. I think you are the sole owner of all quataloos ever minted. Lucky man.

Also, Mats Lewan's "admiration" as a bonus is also worth something.

See you around!

JB

Here's a doozy. We were right to focus on the pump discussion here. But I don't think any of us caught the minimum versus maximum switcharoo by Smith. I pointed out all kinds of other misdirection by him, but wow, that's what I would call a biggie.

I then wanted to hear Rossi’s view on the discussion about the 24 smaller pumps feeding water into the E-Cat modules, which had become one of the defense’s major arguments against Rossi, and also one that attorney Christopher Pace raised at the beginning of the trial.

“This is my favorite because now we’re going to have some fun. You need to see it from a ridiculous side because it’s so ridiculous that you can’t take it seriously.”

The argument, which was brought up in the Expert Report by engineer Rick A. Smith, was based on an observation that on the name plate of the pump it said ’32 l/h.’ In his report, Smith concluded that this was the maximum capacity of the pump, and multiplying 32×24 you get 768 l/h which, if evaporated, only consumes 482 kW—less than half of a megawatt.

The issue is that just next to ’32 l/h’ it says ’02 bar’. The reason is that any pump’s capacity depends on the pressure it needs to overcome to pump the water, the same way as the flow of air you can blow out of your mouth depends on how open it is. Now, 2 bars correspond to the pressure under 20 meters of water, which is way beyond the pressure in the E-Cat plant, and the pumps’ capacity in the actual situation was therefore much larger because the pressure on the pumps was about 1/10 of bar.

“Here comes the comic aspect. At the trial, you cannot bring documents that you haven’t produced during the discovery phase so I would have needed to explain to the jury, which was not composed of experts on the matter, that the capacity of a pump is a function of the pressure. I would have had to explain that the flow rate of a pump is an integral, not a number, as any intelligent engineer knows. It would have been a little difficult, albeit possible.

“But during his deposition, Smith, after having insulted me and Penon [the independent controller], several times, saying that we were fraudsters and how can you say that with 32 l/h and 24 pumps you produce a megawatt, and so on, then he said something like ‘now I will show you the brochure of the pump, 120 pages of technical data,’ as if he wanted to show how much of an expert he was. Then you need to know that I have used these pumps for years and know the brochure by heart. I opened the brochure and looked at the page where I knew that the capacity was specified, and it said ‘minimum capacity at 2 bars pressure, 32 l/h.’ But in his report, Smith had written maximum capacity.

“When he said this I could have reacted, asking if he had read the brochure, open it and make him read. But we preferred to remain silent, letting them being convinced that it had passed as true, just like when you have an enemy and you let him run and get himself pierced by your bayonet. I showed it to my attorney who laughed under his mustache, and we would then have brought it out at the trial. We would have destroyed them. Because half of Smith’s report talks about this and the other half about things that are related. But the problem is—we would have won, but they would have kept the license. That’s why my lawyers told me ‘you need to tell us clearly which is your priority—getting the money or the license because listen, you won’t have both.’ And I said the license because the license has an enormous value not only in economic terms but also in technological, philosophical, and existential terms.”

But, what do you think—didn’t they ever realize that they were wrong?

I think… I’m extremely puzzled by the fact that two engineers, Murray and Smith, are so naive not to realize making errors of this kind. I cannot make conclusions because I cannot start imagining things. I can only say that they probably all thought we were fools. I think that their problem, from the beginning to the end of this affair, was just that—they underestimated the person they had in front of them enormously. I believe that they thought they could write such things without my noticing it. It’s impossible that two good engineers with excellent careers, like Murray and Smith, really can have thought that something like that was true, because if a student at the first year of engineering school takes the exam in thermodynamics and tells his professor that a pump, of which the specifications says that its minimum capacity at 2 bars is 32 l/h, has a maximum capacity of 32 l/h, he would have been sent home immediately.”

By the way, since you know these pumps, what capacity do they have at the actual pressure in the plant—about 0.2 bars?

“About 75 l/h.”

Mats' full interview:

https://animpossibleinvention.com/blog/

Sorry to toot my own horn a little, but I've spent countless hours reviewing this case, and providing insight to others, and I think I deserve a few toots:

Looks like I was right on IH's fundamental misstep with Rossi:

Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Going back in time—when did you first understand that things were not going well between you and IH?

“When I discovered that IH was making agreements with our competitors. At that point, I understood that they were trying to fill up their portfolio of intellectual property in view of litigation with us pending the huge payment they were going to have to pay. It was instinct—I had no proof, but eventually, the facts confirmed this instinctive doubt.”

And, just as some of us had suspected, it appears that Smith's diagram of the 1MW plant was basically made-up.

Quote from IH Fanboy

And with this:

https://animpossibleinvention.…/settlement-agreement.pdf

I think my prescient predictions deserve some quataloos:

Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

Sig? I went all in remember.

Display More

OK, you're right, you win. Rossi got all his IP back from IH, plus the 1MW unit, and apparently somehow gets to keep the 11.5M paid. So you get all of my millyun Quatloos. And in that bet, I also stated that if this were the outcome, it indicated that Rossi had a stronger hand than IH. So I concede that this is what happened, that I am surprised by that, and I grant you full bragging rights as well.

It is kind of amazing that Rossi pulled that off: I have to give him props for pulling it off.

It makes me sick to think that a lying, swindling, con man gets rewarded for such awful behavior.

But it's not my money, and IH should have known better, so I guess they get to take responsibility for their poor choices.

I have no more Quatloos to bet, but I will make one more Bold Prediction, betting all rights and authority to the Bold Prediction Challenge^TM:

sigmoidals final Bold Prediction: Rossi, and none of us posting here, will ever see a valid, commercially viable implementation of Rossi's LENR+ 'intellectual property' in our lifetime.

What anyone with eyes, ears and the capacity for reason now knows if they look carefully at the evidence, is that Rossi is extraordinarily deceptive.

The reason he needs to be so deceptive is because Rossi has no LENR+ technology.

And unfortunately for Rossi and his followers, science and truth cannot be conned into anything commercial viable.

2 + 2 cannot be conned into becoming 5.

But it seems that given his skills, the only proof that can possibly demonstrate that Rossi really has nothing to Rossi fans is time. And that will just have to play out.

Now that Rossi has his IP back free and clear, AND he has been paid 11.5 Million dollars, AND he has commercially viable products (according to him), there is absolutely no reason why Rossi shouldn't be able to quickly become the dominant energy producer for the entire world.

So all we have to do is sit back and wait for this to happen.

Or Rossi is completely full of 'it'.

Only time will tell...

(Tick)

(Tock)

(Tick)

(Tock)

(Tick)

....

Quote from sigmoidal

1. It makes me sick to think that a lying, swindling, con man gets rewarded for such awful behavior.

2. I have no more Quatloos to bet, but I will make one more Bold Prediction, betting all rights and authority to the Bold Prediction Challenge^TM:

sigmoidals final Bold Prediction: Rossi, and none of us posting here, will ever see a valid, commercially viable implementation of Rossi's LENR+ 'intellectual property' in our lifetime.

3. What anyone with eyes, ears and the capacity for reason now knows if they look carefully at the evidence, is that Rossi is extraordinarily deceptive.

Display More

sigmoidal,

1. Do you join @Shane D.'s and @maryyugo's prediction that Rossi only took back the license so he could con another fool (for even more money)? Because if he really would be a lazy "lying, swindling, con man" he could have walked away with a few more million. Even stronger, Thomas Darden knew he would lose the case and thus Rossi walked away from tens of millions of USD. All to con another fool for even more. This theory does not make sense.

2. What's your score? Zero out of two? I'll take your bet. We might need a few years, but i am convinced you will lose this one as well.

3. The lawyers of Jones Day, Rick A. Smith and Murray have not succeeded in helping JT Vaughn and Thomas Darden to convince a judge that Rossi is extraordinarily deceptive despite working with him for years. While having contracts in place. And you, behind your greasy keyboard, from a far distance keep on hollering that Andrea Rossi is a fraud. Isn't time to move on?

Cheers,

JB

Quote from IH Fanboy

And with this:

https://animpossibleinvention.…/settlement-agreement.pdf

I think my prescient predictions deserve some quataloos:

Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

Sig? I went all in remember.

Display More

Assuming that this is a true and complete (and executed) copy of the Settlement Agreement, I don't see anywhere in there where IH agreed to pay Rossi any more money or any portion of Rossi's legal fees. I was absolutely positive (sarcasm warning ELE), based on all of the pro-Rossi pundits posts, all of which were incredibly persuasive, well reasoned and based on inside information (more sarcasm ELE), that IH had agreed to pay Rossi tons of additional monies and some or all of his legal fees to be released from trap that Rossi had IH in. What happened? How did evil IH (more sarcasm ELE) escape from having to pay Rossi more money? Inquiring minds want to know.

PS: pretty standard form of Settlement and Mutual Release - I must have several almost identical (except names, dates, etc.) in my form file. Also, I noticed AmpEnergo was not released. Would someone refresh my memory as to their involvement.

PPS: Ele is correct that I have not been a layer (not lately). However, I am still a California lawyer in good standing with the California State Bar.

Quote from we_cat_global

Shane D.,

Are you in for any bets?

The E-Cat QX will be very easy to test. Much easier than any other reactor Rossi presented. And on the contrary, i think the court case and all the documents have not only made people curious about Rossi, he now seems more legit than before.

Cheers,

JB

Display More

WCG:

I don't know if Shane D is in for a bet (I won't presume to speak for him), but I am. $10,000 (US dollars) that Rossi does not have a functioning, independently tested E-Cat QX and ready for commercial use (by a real company, not one controlled by or affiliated with Rossi), within the next 18 months, that does what he claims as of today.

I think that those are reasonable parameters. If you believe in Rossi and his technology so much you should not have a problem with them.

Quote from Shane D.

ecg,

You are irritating, but at least you were a "polite troll"...until this. Rein it in bud. And IMO, your exuberance is irrational, and you most likely will have to eat your words when this is all said and done. Like I and others have said...I would love to be wrong, and it turns out Rossi has the goods. Trust me on that.

And your generous time of "a few years" you give Rossi, is not going to hack it. Rossi has said he will start building factories soon in the US and Sweden, so years is not in the cards -for betting purposes that is. Especially so since he has claimed for 5 years the 1MW is ready for the commercial market. I still do not understand why there is no customer demand for it?

Shane D.,

Sore loser? It was just a round "bud", you still believe in winning the fight, right? Curly toes.

My "irrationality" has been more rational than anything you have typed here the last six months. You are unable to comprehend just now what Mats Lewan's interview means. Let me spell it for you...every post from your hand in regards to the Rossi vs. Darden court case was wrong. Typed from the wrong perspective. The wrong mindset. Useless.

All the insults, the misinformation, the taunting...it is now all obsolete. A waste of your time, of the time of people that took the effort to read them, the time the processors in the machines that host LENR Forum needed to process them.

Fine, you think Rossi is a fraud. I have a different opinion. So why not keep it at that, instead of repeating over and over again that Andrea Rossi is a fraud. You, sigmoidal, Eric Walker, JedRothwell and @maryyugo keep on barfing your negative comments on this website and it makes a normal discussion very difficult. It's uncalled for.

There is nobody here that starts a thread by praising Rossi. There is always negativity first and then a few guys that throw some balance in the mix. And if these guys are a tad too positive about Rossi, if they question the source of that negativity they are ridiculed and or banned.

If you are offended because i mocked sigmoidal's keyboard i ask you what you think cancer survivors think of JedRothwell's and @interested observer's wig jokes.

Cheers,

JB

Quote from we_cat_global

Making fun of recovering cancer patients is beyond anything reasonable.

I wasn't aware he had cancer. Frankly, if he told you that, I don't believe it. If he tells you the sun is shining you should expect to see it is raining.

He has been bald all along. It is a little odd that a bald person would use a toupee only after getting cancer, since the loss of hair would not change his appearance.

Quote from we_cat_global

Shane D.,

Sore loser? It was just a round "bud", you still believe in winning the fight, right? Curly toes.

My "irrationality" has been more rational than anything you have typed here the last six months. You are unable to comprehend just now what Mats Lewan's interview means. Let me spell it for you...every post from your hand in regards to the Rossi vs. Darden court case was wrong. Typed from the wrong perspective. The wrong mindset. Useless.

All the insults, the misinformation, the taunting...it is now all obsolete. A waste of your time, of the time of people that took the effort to read them, the time the processors in the machines that host LENR Forum needed to process them.

Fine, you think Rossi is a fraud. I have a different opinion. So why not keep it at that, instead of repeating over and over again that Andrea Rossi is a fraud. You, sigmoidal, Eric Walker, JedRothwell and @maryyugo keep on barfing your negative comments on this website and it makes a normal discussion very difficult. It's uncalled for.

There is nobody here that starts a thread by praising Rossi. There is always negativity first and then a few guys that throw some balance in the mix. And if these guys are a tad too positive about Rossi, if they question the source of that negativity they are ridiculed and or banned.

If you are offended because i mocked sigmoidal's keyboard i ask you what you think cancer survivors think of JedRothwell's and @interested observer's wig jokes.

Cheers,

JB

Display More

Well given that Rossi said that he would give 50% of his profits to child cancer research, and he has received 11.5 Million, but has instead used a large portion of the money to purchase Florida condos, and there is no evidence he has given any money to 'child cancer research', I'll let observers here come to their own conclusions about slimy behavior.

Kinda pathetic that you choose to ignore Rossi's own 'promises' and instead smear others for holding views well supported by hard evidence, but hey, to each his own.

Your reputation proceeds you, as they say.

Cheers,

sigmoidal

Quote from woodworker

WCG:

I don't know if Shane D is in for a bet (I won't presume to speak for him), but I am. $10,000 (US dollars) that Rossi does not have a functioning, independently tested E-Cat QX and ready for commercial use (by a real company, not one controlled by or affiliated with Rossi), within the next 18 months, that does what he claims as of today.

I think that those are reasonable parameters. If you believe in Rossi and his technology so much you should not have a problem with them.

Hi woodworker,

I like your proposal. Also, now i have the opportunity, thank you for your comments on the court case. Your predictions were not that accurate, but you are one of the more balanced posters here and it was interesting to read your thoughts.

In regards to the bet, and besides that i am in no position to bet these kind of amounts, it would be very foolish for the Planet Rossi citizen to risk 10K USD when there is so little upside. One could better buy for example some VIX upside, puts Vitol or shares in a sapphire factory. Then the upside is way bigger.

What i am trying to say is that the odds that Rossi has what he claims he has are much smaller than vice versa.

What do you think the odds should be?

What we could do is try to formalize a bet and ask for example Unibet, Betfair, William Hill to host the bet. I am not sure if there would be any real interest, but i would certainly keep an eye on these (changing) odds.

Another layer of complexity lies in the fact that if Rossi has what he claims he has, he most certainly will be delayed (or killed) by forces that would be hurt by such an invention. This thesis makes it, in my opinion, very hard to price the probability that all criteria in your "bet" are met.

Cheers,

JB