Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

Quote from Bob

IHFB and others simply try to defame IH because they cannot defend Rossi by his OWN works.

The fact of revealing the profoundly incorrect behavior that Cherokee / IH has had over the years is not defamation. All that has been reported by Sifferkol, for example, is available with simple internet searches, but not everyone is willing to accept it. IH were defamed by themselves, especially when they tried to swindle the SEC with clearly false statements. And this settlement is just the latest defeat of the Darden's gang.

Quote from IH Fanboy

All we have is Darden's after-the-fact self-serving testimony and story about a supposed dummy device in January 2014, after which he proceeded to raise tens of millions of dollars from Woodford (he must have really been convinced by that dummy reactor).

I have always found that the story of the dummy with COP greater than 1 is quite absurd, but even more absurd is the fact that IH supporters repeat this episode to discredit Rossi and let Darden seem the poor victim of an impostor. If things were going to be so, Darden would be an impostor because instead of interrupting any relationship with Rossi, he would continue to raise funds for a badly-functioning reactor. Nothing to go proud of .....

Quote from JedRothwell

At present I don't see how there will even be an ICCF conference next year. I.H. was going to pay for it, but thanks to Rossi they withdrew support.

You all repeated many times that Rossi was not the protagonist of the IH portfolio and that after the trial they would have finally been free to devote themselves to the other projects they had invested to. The ICCF should be a very important goal to promote the various members of their portfolio. But now that Rossi has come out of their entourage, IH seems no longer interested in ICCF ...... do not tell me it's a matter of money, really not credible.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Here's a doozy. We were right to focus on the pump discussion here. But I don't think any of us caught the minimum versus maximum switcharoo by Smith. I pointed out all kinds of other misdirection by him, but wow, that's what I would call a biggie.

I then wanted to hear Rossi’s view on the discussion about the 24 smaller pumps feeding water into the E-Cat modules, which had become one of the defense’s major arguments against Rossi, and also one that attorney Christopher Pace raised at the beginning of the trial.

“This is my favorite because now we’re going to have some fun. You need to see it from a ridiculous side because it’s so ridiculous that you can’t take it seriously.”

The argument, which was brought up in the Expert Report by engineer Rick A. Smith, was based on an observation that on the name plate of the pump it said ’32 l/h.’ In his report, Smith concluded that this was the maximum capacity of the pump, and multiplying 32×24 you get 768 l/h which, if evaporated, only consumes 482 kW—less than half of a megawatt.

The issue is that just next to ’32 l/h’ it says ’02 bar’. The reason is that any pump’s capacity depends on the pressure it needs to overcome to pump the water, the same way as the flow of air you can blow out of your mouth depends on how open it is. Now, 2 bars correspond to the pressure under 20 meters of water, which is way beyond the pressure in the E-Cat plant, and the pumps’ capacity in the actual situation was therefore much larger because the pressure on the pumps was about 1/10 of bar.

“Here comes the comic aspect. At the trial, you cannot bring documents that you haven’t produced during the discovery phase so I would have needed to explain to the jury, which was not composed of experts on the matter, that the capacity of a pump is a function of the pressure. I would have had to explain that the flow rate of a pump is an integral, not a number, as any intelligent engineer knows. It would have been a little difficult, albeit possible.

“But during his deposition, Smith, after having insulted me and Penon [the independent controller], several times, saying that we were fraudsters and how can you say that with 32 l/h and 24 pumps you produce a megawatt, and so on, then he said something like ‘now I will show you the brochure of the pump, 120 pages of technical data,’ as if he wanted to show how much of an expert he was. Then you need to know that I have used these pumps for years and know the brochure by heart. I opened the brochure and looked at the page where I knew that the capacity was specified, and it said ‘minimum capacity at 2 bars pressure, 32 l/h.’ But in his report, Smith had written maximum capacity.

“When he said this I could have reacted, asking if he had read the brochure, open it and make him read. But we preferred to remain silent, letting them being convinced that it had passed as true, just like when you have an enemy and you let him run and get himself pierced by your bayonet. I showed it to my attorney who laughed under his mustache, and we would then have brought it out at the trial. We would have destroyed them. Because half of Smith’s report talks about this and the other half about things that are related. But the problem is—we would have won, but they would have kept the license. That’s why my lawyers told me ‘you need to tell us clearly which is your priority—getting the money or the license because listen, you won’t have both.’ And I said the license because the license has an enormous value not only in economic terms but also in technological, philosophical, and existential terms.”

But, what do you think—didn’t they ever realize that they were wrong?

I think… I’m extremely puzzled by the fact that two engineers, Murray and Smith, are so naive not to realize making errors of this kind. I cannot make conclusions because I cannot start imagining things. I can only say that they probably all thought we were fools. I think that their problem, from the beginning to the end of this affair, was just that—they underestimated the person they had in front of them enormously. I believe that they thought they could write such things without my noticing it. It’s impossible that two good engineers with excellent careers, like Murray and Smith, really can have thought that something like that was true, because if a student at the first year of engineering school takes the exam in thermodynamics and tells his professor that a pump, of which the specifications says that its minimum capacity at 2 bars is 32 l/h, has a maximum capacity of 32 l/h, he would have been sent home immediately.”

By the way, since you know these pumps, what capacity do they have at the actual pressure in the plant—about 0.2 bars?

“About 75 l/h.”

Mats' full interview:

https://animpossibleinvention.com/blog/

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So please, in a scientific way, explain what the flow rate would be at 0 bar.

Gauge or absolute (don't care which, your choice).

Since that is what the report stated.

0 bar.

Again, your choice based on R's own report.

(Didn't say 0 bar g which is what a REAL test report would say.

Maybe it was 0 bar abs)

Up to you. Flow rate in l/h ?

You can put paper strips in the gasket to make noise coming out

(your invention remember). Don't make no diff.

You can also explain away how you rationalized that that there must be a vacuum in the system.

So that is less than 0 bar gauge. But that is up to you.

But just for S and G's, explain how your outrage above works with 0 bar Gauge as documented by R himself.

Flow please in l/h.

One number. Easy peasy.

Given the numbers supplied above, I know it, do you ?

It is a simple multiplication sum.

I used google calculator so I may be wrong.

Quote from woodworker

Also, I noticed AmpEnergo was not released. Would someone refresh my memory as to their involvement.

AEG were not party to the trial (witnesses only). So they get to keep their tranche for the 1-day acceptance test. Rossi got $10M : ISTR they got $5M.

*IF* the trial had continued AND Rossi got a ruling that the Doral system WAS the GPT [edit] AND Penon's sign-off was the trigger, then I think that AEG would have got their tranche on that. (Half of what Rossi got, or $45M ?) (Maybe THEN they'd have to sue IH to get it).

*IF* Rossi had got his 3*$89M penalty then AEG would still "only" have got $45M.

Edit: Attorney fees - each party pays their own.

Quote from JedRothwell

I do not believe for one second that he "took back" the license. Not unless he returned the $10 million, and I doubt he has that kind of money. I do not think I.H. would settle for letting him have both the money and the license.

All the details of the settlement that have been disclosed are "Rossi says" meaning they are probably lies. [ ... blah blah ... ]

So ... you are asserting that the (unsigned) settlement document is fake.

Where's Dewey when you need him? Dewey? Dewey? .... Anyone?

Ha, why the hedge on "COP"

Quote from IH Fanboy

Well, I can lend a few of mine. Then perhaps we can enter into the following, and I'll give you 10:1 odds. That an e-Cat of some variation will be released into the wild sometime in the next five years, and will have a COP > 1. Again, I'm going all in.

The primary reasons for my confidence (and mind you, my batting average is quite high):

1) Rossi prioritized getting the license back over a possible $89MM, and potentially more (due to the possibility of treble damages)

2) Rossi is now unshackled from IH

3) Because, Rossi

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Please confirm and elaborate on your "bet" in specific detail (as we all know however, that will not be forthcoming, since your are the quintessential definition of a "TROLL") , as many will take you up on that bet, including myself; we will set up an escrow account on that bet. Although we will need some sane, customarily approved and provable ground-rules (which again will not be forthcoming, as that is antithetical to Rossi and Brethren). Also, why the lowball hedge now of COP just greater than 1, and what does "released into the wild" mean exactly. C'mon give us publicly the specific, understandable, details of your bet, such that we can all review and participate--we're waiting.

Quote from we_cat_global

Hi woodworker,

I like your proposal. Also, now i have the opportunity, thank you for your comments on the court case. Your predictions were not that accurate, but you are one of the more balanced posters here and it was interesting to read your thoughts.

In regards to the bet, and besides that i am in no position to bet these kind of amounts, it would be very foolish for the Planet Rossi citizen to risk 10K USD when there is so little upside. One could better buy for example some VIX upside, puts Vitol or shares in a sapphire factory. Then the upside is way bigger.

What i am trying to say is that the odds that Rossi has what he claims he has are much smaller than vice versa.

What do you think the odds should be?

What we could do is try to formalize a bet and ask for example Unibet, Betfair, William Hill to host the bet. I am not sure if there would be any real interest, but i would certainly keep an eye on these (changing) odds.

Another layer of complexity lies in the fact that if Rossi has what he claims he has, he most certainly will be delayed (or killed) by forces that would be hurt by such an invention. This thesis makes it, in my opinion, very hard to price the probability that all criteria in your "bet" are met.

Cheers,

JB

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Odds? If you read my posts, you should have noted that I have never expressed any opinion as to the viability of LENR other than to say I would like to see it succeed. My opinion as to Rossi's prospects/technology, my willingness to bet has nothing to do with the technology, it is based on the fact that Rossi is, IMHO, a lying, hypocritical, sliming, etc. fraud, cheat and conmen. I have absolute confidence that Rossi will not produce what he has promised not because I doubt LENR, but because I don't trust or believe Rossi and, given the evidence, in the court records and the things he has publicly said and admitted to, of Rossi's willingness to lie about everything and anything, I have every confidence that he will again fail to produce (apologies for the run-on sentence - I would have made it shorter, but I didn't have the time).

You are the some so positive about Rossi, you should be giving me odds.

As to "Another layer of complexity lies in the fact that if Rossi has what he claims he has, he most certainly will be delayed (or killed) by forces that would be hurt by such an invention" give me a f***ing break. What evidence do you have to support such a statement. And by "have" I don't mean you read something on some website about how the magic pill that turns water into gas was suppressed/killed by the oil companies. I mean real evidence.

Quote from sigmoidal

OHHH! This is not a jointly provided agreement? It's currently just Rossisays? (I should have looked more closely at the source).

Well then, I'm placing my millyun Quatloos and bragging rights for IHFB in escrow until there is joint endorsement of the settlement terms.

And I'm seeking some Quatloo council to protect my Quatloo interests (on contingency, of course) until this is all resolved. Maybe woodworker can represent me?

I would require at least $25,000 as an evergreen retainer. US dollars, not quatloos, promissory notes, etc. Cash before I start any work, along with a signed engagement letter.

It would not surprise me if that is the actual settlement agreement, albeit unsigned. And I would not be surprised if IH waived any claim that they had to any purported or alleged intellectual property. I say that because I am assuming that IH eventually decided that whatever IP Rossi allegedly had, it was worthless.

In the event that IH later develops some LENR technology that is feasible I would expect that Rossi would claim that it is based on his IP, regardless of whether it is or isn't, and will rush to the courthouse to sue IH. If he is willing to settle cheaply, IH may decide that settlement is cheaper than litigating. But if Rossi gets greedy (which would be the behavior I expect), and IH really has something that works, I would anticipate that IH would fight Rossi tooth and nail and, given that there is now a documented history of Rossi's behavior (the lies, etc.), I would expect that IH would do everything they could to bury Rossi.

As to Rossi releasing something into the wild, I agree that he will. What he won't do is release anything that is capable of being independently tested and reviewed. And because he won't agree to that, I believe he will have a difficult time in obtaining serious investors and/or customers. No doubt he will be able to raise some monies from true believers, but IMHO I don't see any serious investor putting up money or partnering with him.

Quote from guest111

we will set up an escrow account on that bet. . . .

The decentralized prediction market Augur should be up, with oracles and verifiers, by end of this year. We'll get the bet set up there. We can flesh out the details as well. Hope you're ready and willing.

Quote from woodworker

. . . my willingness to bet has nothing to do with the technology, it is based on the fact that Rossi is, IMHO, a lying, hypocritical, sliming, etc. fraud, cheat and conmen.

I don't know about most of those, but I'm about 100% certain that Andrea Rossi is constituted of a single man.

Quote from woodworker

I would expect that IH would do everything they could to bury Rossi.

Uh oh, here we go again. Are you sure you're not Dewey incarnate?

The working relationship between Rossi and IH was hard on them both. But that relationship produced the Lugano reactor which was a God sent to Rossi. The Lugano reactor inspired Rossi to build the QuarkX which eventually has solved all of Rossi's technical problems. That year of torture during the IH test will pay huge dividends in Rossi's future commercialization plans. Sometimes an improbable predicament works out for the best in the end.

Quote from IH Fanboy

The decentralized prediction market Augur should be up, with oracles and verifiers, by end of this year. We'll get the bet set up there. We can flesh out the details as well. Hope you're ready and willing.

I will put that on my calendar, along with the QuackX commercialization, and the End of the World predictions, etc.

Quote from guest111

I will put that on my calendar, . . .

Excellent. We're on.

Many advances in the ascent of man were marked by conflict among the intellectual vanguard. Consistent with this process, Rossi does not lack for eneimies. Back in the day when medicine began to embrace the germ theory, the Corpse Handlers accused the Hand Washers of being effete. Then there is the case of Albert Einstein vs Philipp Lenard and the other Nazi scientists. Such antagonisms must be an inherent flaw in human nature and an encumbrance to the advancement of humankind.

Quote from woodworker

1. You are the some so positive about Rossi, you should be giving me odds.

2. As to "Another layer of complexity lies in the fact that if Rossi has what he claims he has, he most certainly will be delayed (or killed) by forces that would be hurt by such an invention" give me a f***ing break. What evidence do you have to support such a statement. And by "have" I don't mean you read something on some website about how the magic pill that turns water into gas was suppressed/killed by the oil companies. I mean real evidence.

3. I would require at least $25,000 as an evergreen retainer. US dollars, not quatloos, promissory notes, etc. Cash before I start any work, along with a signed engagement letter.

woodworker,

1. Fair enough. No quote from you. Although this sentence is not very coherent i think i understand what you want to say. In my own words i would state that i am hopeful that Rossi has something, yet i also have some healthy doubts. I do like the man for his unconventional approach and perseverance. His cheekiness is much needed to get his technology to the market. Every Rossi action against IH was born out of self-defense and totally acceptable. They had him by the balls and would slaughter him if they had the chance.

2. You are highly naive if you think a disruptive invention like the Rossi Effect (if real) would not face any headwind from powers that would be threatened by it.

3. I rather work with Annesser. Your judgement has not proven to be very accurate yet.

Cheers,

JB

settlement draft ???

http://coldfusioncommunity.net…ement-agreement-draft.pdf

Cantor's Law of the Conservation of Ignorance:

"A false conclusion once arrived at and widely accepted is not easily dislodged and the less it is understood, the more tenaciously it is held".

Dewey, is there anything you're at liberty to clarify in this matter that is not under NDA? (You are probably already aware of the interview between Mats Lewan and Rossi.)