Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions



  • For all the ludicrousness some might find in it, it's certainly much more rational than 'Rossi has nothing and is a master conman/hypnotist'


    The Rossi situation may not be a binary one, work vs. not work, it could be a gray one in which the device he has been working for on for years sort of works but has flaws that makes it difficult for it to be useful. The basic power producing mechanism has be properly exposed but has not be properly and usefully controlled. In this gray zone, it may be advisable to leave Rossi alone and give him the room to fix the problems with his invention as best that he is able. After all, what inventor produces something that cannot be improved on.

  • And they had a crack machinist who built them and engine with - for the period - an amazing power-to-weight ratio.

    That they did. I have a book about him: "Charles E. Taylor: The Wright Brothers Mechanician." However, I would point out:


    The Wrights designed the engine, not Taylor.


    It was rudimentary and not suitable for practical use. To make it practical, they had to add weight, which they did with subsequent engines. (The first engine was smashed on the afternoon of the first flights. The whole airplane was smashed.)


    Other researchers such as Langley had better engines with more power and a better horsepower to weight ratio.


  • So one of the hypothesis for this whole affair, would be that Rossi is the main actor in the progressive, drama-filled disclosure of a technology that's probably been used by the military for quite a while?

    For all the ludicrousness some might find in it, it's certainly much more rational than 'Rossi has nothing and is a master conman/hypnotist'

    Wait, does that mean I'm working on behalf of the military industrial complex? I must say, that would be a pretty weird scenario, and indeed, unbeknownst to me this whole time. :)

  • There are a lot of arguments on this either way. One item no one has been able to explain is why the ecat only works when the e-cat people are operating it. The extension to that is why the ecat people almost never allow an independent test of it without their involvement. My opinion on the reason for that is clear. But it does make for an interesting thought experiment.

  • The Rossi situation may not be a binary one, work vs. not work

    How would you know? You haven't even read the paper.


    If you read the Penon report and you know as much as a 7th grader, you will see that the situation is binary. The 1-year test was a farce that proved the thing does not work. Don't try to contradict me on this with one of your word salads: you haven't read it, you know nothing, and you have no business expressing an opinion, however convoluted.

  • @ sigmoidal,


    In April 2016, Krivit was regularly commenting on ecatnews. When MY posted the link to the last Macy's article, I replied posing a couple of questions. After a few minutes Krivit posted this comment:

    The day after, MY and I asked for some more clarifications, but we got no answer, and Krivit abandoned the thread for a while.



    Well Ascoli, you asked me for my opinion. I've read all your links and I've come to this conclusion: I do not find that the evidence you have provided points to anything particularly important regarding JoNP, or that raises questions that must be answered in order to come to accurate conclusions about the Rossi saga. So from my perspective, I think that you most likley are reading WAY to much into Krivit's Vortex posts. Your post does show that Krivit thinks Melich (and his wife M. Macy) had (and might still have) some connection with Rossi. That there was some connection was obvious from Krivit's research and Macy's article about him.


    Melich seemed to think that transmutation might be occurring back in 2010/11 and was excited about the possibility. Macy is not technically oriented, but she had some high powered connections that might have been helpful for Rossi in PR or funding. Once she met Rossi, she realized he didn't need PR help, because her intuition about him was that he was keenly competent regarding PR (which turned out to be correct).


    But I don't really see why this is significant. Rossi obviously runs JoNP, and fills it full of fake Rossiworld stuff. Maybe Melich registered the domain and gave it to Rossi. Or maybe Rossi was the original registrant and payed the extra $10 per year (or whatever) for 'privacy protection' to avoid getting spammed by spambots scraping the whois registry. Who cares? You do, obviously. I'm sorry if this is blunt or disappointing, but I don't.


    That's because JoNP is all just a boatload of Rossisays promoting Rossiworld, regardless of who owns it or who's contributing.


    But again, if you really think this might be important, I would encourage you to try a bit more strenuously to contact Krivit with your questions. Here are three possible ways to do that (based on entering 'Steven Krivit LENR' into a search engine):


    http://stevenbkrivit.com/contact-steven/


    https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-b-krivit-5422a552/


    http://news.newenergytimes.net/contact-new-energy-times/


    If you get a response from Krivit that you can share and you think is interesting, and/or lends support to the idea that this JoNP board is an important piece of the Rossi puzzle, please let us all know what you find.


    All the best,


    sigmoidal

  • How would you know? You haven't even read the paper.


    If you read the Penon report and you know as much as a 7th grader, you will see that the situation is binary. The 1-year test was a farce that proved the thing does not work. Don't try to contradict me on this with one of your word salads: you haven't read it, you know nothing, and you have no business expressing an opinion, however convoluted.


    As it has come to pass, the entire legal process was a waste of time and the people who had followed that trial with wrapped attention have wasted a ton of time on obvious propaganda, that Penon report included. The information produced by that carnival of propaganda has no impact on the world of facts that actually exist. You are still living in a world of chicanery in which that trial conjured, lacking in any reality content. I understand you have invested a major part of your ego in this unfortunate situation and make allowances for the situation that you have subjected yourself to. I understand, like a mark who has been disillusioned by a crew of skillful con men, embittered, resentful, disappointed, angry, you need time to heal.

  • If you really believe that, simply watch Rossi some more. In the next few years, there will be nothing but Rossifictions and bad demos done non-independently or if they are independent and properly done, the results will be negative-- just as EVERY Rossi project EVER has proceeded.

    I stopped following what Rossisez back in 2011. I follow him by looking at what OTHERS say about him. For a while it looked positive with some of the positive stuff Darden was saying about him. Then it looked negative, then the lawsuit. There's a lot of juicy stuff in the lawsuit but I figured it wasn't worth following because it would never go to trial.


    So now I'm back to ignoring Rossi on his own terms, In Mercato Veritas. If some new Darden comes along there are plenty of you folks to warn them of Rossi's shenanigans and what to look for to cheat a LENR test.


    Currently the chances of Rossi coming to market are.... well, we don't know because there is no prediction market for it so that I can bet for or against him according to the odds presented. I sure would love to take those 10,000:1 odds. But my experience has been that 10,000:1 rhetoric turns into 3:1 odds when money changes hands so that's a lot of bullshit getting thrown around.

  • There is no comparison between a mechanical device readily interpreted and tested using simple observable experimentation, ordinary physics, and phenomenon, versus plasma fusion, atomic and subatomic physics theory and experimentation. That comparison is like saying that the Wright brothers could also have developed the first nuclear bomb.

    There are plenty of apt comparisons between the two scientific developments. The Wright brothers came out with an Impossible Invention. It remains to be seen if Rossi is on the same level as they are, but your characterization makes it look like Rossi came up with LENR stuff all by himself. He didn't. He built upon the shoulders of giants like Pons, Fleischmann, and Focardi. Focardi said that Rossi's initial contribution to the field was to split H2 into H1 before processing the fuel and it generated much more robust results. Assuming Rossi has been looking at LENR boxes for 10 years, he has had more time on LENR than any other researcher. A lot like the Wright brothers.


  • So one of the hypothesis for this whole affair, would be that Rossi is the main actor in the progressive, drama-filled disclosure of a technology that's probably been used by the military for quite a while?


    Close to the real picture in many ways IMHO.


    Makes me wonder who else intentionally is on this "progressive drama-filled disclosure" thing that is making people waste inordinate amounts of time.

  • Quote

    There are a lot of arguments on this either way. One item no one has been able to explain is why the ecat only works when the e-cat people are operating it. The extension to that is why the ecat people almost never allow an independent test of it without their involvement. My opinion on the reason for that is clear. But it does make for an interesting thought experiment.

    The reason Rossi does not allow truly valid, independent testing, is that he knows it will show that the ecat does not work. This is what happened when the Swedish technical Institute tested the ecat. They found that Rossi was mismeasuring the input power and that, measured correctly, it gave a COP of 1 or less. See the summary at:


    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter…energi/article3535258.ece


    More detail is available but I am not sure where it is. Also, read Prometeon (former Rossi distributor) in e-catworld.com to see evidence that Rossi has and had absolutely nothing.


    http://e-catworld.com/2014/11/…es-e-cat-licensee-status/

  • Interesting end to that letter. It rather rebuts Jed's insistence that Rossi has done nothing but harm. And in the rest of it the writer mentions that they (Prometeon) have another system on development.


    '...The only good thing we can say about Mr Rossi is that he has the merit of having broken the wall around LENR and that finally this important, clean and cheap energy source has started receiving the attention it deserves.


    We take this opportunity to apologize publicly with all the people and companies that have contacted us over the last two years being seriously interested, for different reasons, at the E-Cat® and who didn’t get the answers they hoped to receive or couldn’t buy the E-Cats®, for other people’s responsibilities.

    Prometeon Srl, former E-Cat licensee for Italy.'


    The managing board


    Eng. Guido Parchi


    Aldo Proia

  • In the US, civil trials require a preponderance of the evidence or in other words it is more likely than not that you are correct. Criminal trials require proof beyond a reasonable doubt or in other words proof that would convince any ordinary reasonable person that the person is guilty and that there are no reasonable explanations that the person is innocent.

  • laughable, Rossi attacks IH by bringing a suit and then proposes an agreement to walk away from his attack. I do not see him winning a battle but backing away from his attack when he found that he could not prove his case against IH to get $89 to 200M and recover his IP. There would be no "bankrupt trick" unless Rossi lost the case. Rossi knew full well before he brought suit that IH would likely be able to bring more money than he could to the table. He gave up and ran away.

    Your post is a nonsense. Rossi started his suit without Ip but with initial IH payment. After the suit (and thanks to it) he obtained Ip and IH renounced to take back the payment...


    What can we say? I would say that Rossi has improved his situation without finishing the trial.


    If IH had been so sure about its reasons, it would had refused settlement or signed a different settlement.

    Your are a Lawyer like me. In this settlement I see a party who has solved a problem. A bad licence agreement with a bad clause.


    If we assume ecat is scam, this agreement is a good victory for Rossi, because he has obtained the initial payment 😎

    If we assume ecat is real, this agreement is far better. Because he has obtained ip whose value is multiple times more than 80M...


    But let me say that a big and rich client signs such an agreement only if he thinks he could loose... Otherwhise it's better to celebrate the trial...

  • @ Roger,

    So one of the hypothesis for this whole affair, would be that Rossi is the main actor in the progressive, drama-filled disclosure of a technology that's probably been used by the military for quite a while?

    I can share only the first part of your hypothesis, ie that Rossi is on the stage to play the role of a providential inventor, a sort of Tesla of the XXI century. The last part is impossible: LENR (assuming you meant this supposed technology) doesn't exist.

  • @ sigmoidal,

    But I don't really see why this is significant. Rossi obviously runs JoNP, and fills it full of fake Rossiworld stuff. Maybe Melich registered the domain and gave it to Rossi.

    If you really think that this possibility (ie that a functionary of the DoD registered and gave to Rossi the site where he posted fake stuff for 7+ years) is not significant, well, we not only have different positions, but we use also a different logic.

    Quote

    I would encourage you to try a bit more strenuously to contact Krivit with your questions. Here are three possible ways to do that (based on entering 'Steven Krivit LENR' into a search engine):

    Thank you for the links, but I did already ask him. My request was clear and he was there. I can reasonably consider his silence as a confirmation of his allusions, otherwise he would have corrected them.


    And in any case, the real authoritative confirmation should have had to come from the DoD herself, but they decided not to answer about the "more recent developments in LENR" even if the request came from the US House of Representatives. This could be significant, as well.


    Thanks for all your kind replies.


    All the best, to you too.


  • You seem really confused by insisting that Melich can only be 'a functionary of the DoD'. He is a research professor at a US Navy Graduate School. He has a PhD in Theoretical Physics that he obtained from Rice University (a reputable private institution). He starts working for the Navy as a professor, and does so for many years. He is not limited to being only 'a functionary of the DoD', though. As a professor, he has latitude to do many things that are not related to his DoD work. He could have paid the $20 registration fee himself out of pocket. You don't live in the US, I presume, so maybe things are different in your country. But there is nothing preventing any Navy employee from registering a domain privately. Navy personnel are not 'owned' by the DoD. They have rights as private citizens which they can exercise whenever they are not 'on duty'.


    So let's go with your assumption that Melich was the original registrant of journal-of-nuclear-physics.com . Melich is a professor. Maybe (unrelated to any knowledge of Rossi) in the middle of the night he got inspired to start an online Journal of Nuclear Physics, so he quickly looked online and registered the URL. But he was busy and time passed, and he never had the time to really pursue it. So he just had it 'sitting on the shelf' so to speak. (I've registered 5 URL's for ideas that I've more or less given up on).


    We know from his CV that Melich is/was an LENR enthusiast prior to Rossi's E-Cat. Then he hears about Rossi and gets really excited because it looks like Rossi doesn't merely have LENR, he's got LENR+! So he meets Rossi and tries to think of ways that he, as a professor, can help him out. And he's like, 'Hey Andrea, I think it would really help if you started publishing your research and also you could manage a Journal that I thought of and got a URL for, but never seem to have the time to start it up and run it. I'll let you have it if you want so you can advance the field of LENR+. Would you like that?"


    Melich could easily and reasonably have done that without any input, endorsement, or any other connection to the DoD. Stuff like this happens all the time in the US (where a government employed person establishes some private online presence). Its absolutely normal, and there's nothing wrong (or right) about it.


    One example of a 'DoD' employed person who takes time to post here and is certainly not doing it 'as a functionary of the DoD' is Kirk Shanahan. (See what you can learn from search engines?)


    So under your assumption that Melich was the registrant, does it not seem likely (or at least plausible) that he simply gave (or maybe even sold for a small fee) the URL to Rossi because he wasn't interested in pursuing it and/or he wanted to help a colleague out? And if that is, in fact, what happened, why is that in any way significant?


    But do you even have any proof that Melich registered that name? Because the current registrant is named as: 'EFA SRL' located in: 'BOLOGNA, ITALY'.


    So my question to you is: Why do you think that a website clearly controlled by Andrea Rossi and registered in Bologna Italy has any connection to the US DoD (other than possibly that a US citizen who happens to be employed by the Navy as his 'day job' also has helped him get it started)?


    It just seems really bizarre to me.


    And please consider that one way to interpret the fact that Krivit hasn't responded to you is that he no longer is interested in his speculation regarding the JoNP board of directors that you have become so interested in.


    Or maybe there's some super secret conspiracy that's so complex that it doesn't make any sense to outside observers. We can never completely rule that out, can we?

  • If we assume ecat is scam, this agreement is a good victory for Rossi, because he has obtained the initial payment 😎

    If we assume ecat is real, this agreement is far better. Because he has obtained ip whose value is multiple times more than 80M...


    But let me say that a big and rich client signs such an agreement only if he thinks he could loose... Otherwhise it's better to celebrate the trial...

    IH people came out weakened by this process: they proved to be incompetent and presumptuous, they paid 11.5M to have nothing in hand, neither the IP nor the 1MW plant and they spent millions in lawyers. But their supporters will continue to repeat to us perpetually that it was Rossi that came out defeated by this affair. They obviously need to believe this ....

  • It's gonna be fun to watch you 2 lawyers go at it. Do you think the contract covered the Fred Flinstone strategy? I.e., Fred tweaked his earthmover dinosaur in such a fashion that he was the only person who could operate it. Rossi tweaked his box so that Rossi was the only one who could operate it, which I perceive is not something covered in the contract. He transferred the IP, he tested it under a 3rd party agreed to by both sides, but when it came time for IH to get it to work by themselves, they realized they still needed him. Their refusal to pay the $89M was because they thought they had bought the technology and the obligation to get it to work for them. I perceive that final obligation to be worth far more than $89M when IH was setting up competitors with Rossi's IP. So Rossi pulled his Fred Flinstone maneuver.

  • @ Roger,

    I can share only the first part of your hypothesis, ie that Rossi is on the stage to play the role of a providential inventor, a sort of Tesla of the XXI century. The last part is impossible: LENR (assuming you meant this supposed technology) doesn't exist.


    Of course it doesn't: why else would people spend years writing about its nonexistence, across all blogs and forums that dare mention it?

  • As it has come to pass, the entire legal process was a waste of time and the people who had followed that trial with wrapped attention have wasted a ton of time on obvious propaganda, that Penon report included.

    The Penon report is not propaganda. It was written before the legal process was launched, and the data in it was collected for the entire year. (It was not all collected; anyone can see that much of it was invented.) This is the one and only technical report issued by Rossi. It is the only description of any of Rossi's experiments published by Rossi himself. Based on that report -- and that report only -- he demanded $89 million from I.H., and later filed suit.


    Since you have not read the report, you do not know what it says and you cannot contradict me or argue with me about this.

  • The Penon report is not propaganda. It was written before the legal process was launched, and the data in it was collected for the entire year. (It was not all collected; anyone can see that much of it was invented.) This is the one and only technical report issued by Rossi. It is the only description of any of Rossi's experiments published by Rossi himself. Based on that report -- and that report only -- he demanded $89 million from I.H., and later filed suit.


    Since you have no read the report, you do not know what it says and you cannot contradict me or argue with me about this.


    Jed. I don't want to argue. The trial is over and Rossi got what he wanted. When there is contention over a lot of money, truth takes a holiday. I just want to see you get back to that good old even tempered Jed, the reasonable guy who has done so much for LENR.


    The end of October is approaching. Rossi indicates that he is coming to the end of his development. I will leave the Rossi trial in the past and give you benefit of my open mine in consideration of this last demo. Rest up. take your August vacation, gather your strength for the last push to find the truth. Look toward the future and forget the past. Like so many others, I will be among the crowd, I am nothing special in this regard, needing no special attention, I will be considering your expert and respected opinions with an impartial mind.