Stefan,
The only thing that is absolutely
"clear as air" is that after 7 years Andrea Rossi Still has not produced a working device that produces more
Energy Out > Energy In.
No one can argue this
If that is so absolutely "clear as air" then why did IH settle their case? It would be a slam dunk.
There was a clause in the contract that was giving IH the rights on all future inventions of Rossi.
This exposed Rossi to enormous risks as he explained in his interview.
The fact that he hasn't taken extra money but only his licences and IP is the proof that he believes in his technology and is not a cheater.
It is not PROOF. But it is evidence.
I dare the one of the skeptics to state that this is all a setup, a trick in order for Rossi to ask a higher valuation to the next investor.
Mary Yugo took up your dare downthread. So what is your plan for blowing him out of the water?
There was a clause in the contract that was giving IH the rights on all future inventions of Rossi.
This exposed Rossi to enormous risks as he explained in his interview.
The fact that he hasn't taken extra money but only his licences and IP is the proof that he believes in his technology and is not a cheater.
ele,
Indeed, i agree. It was a question for the skeptics and formulated in such a way they would not immediately reject it.
Cheers!
JB
Mary Yugo took up your dare downthread. So what is your plan for blowing him out of the water?
I guess
@maryyugo is impossible to convince. He is a "doublethinker" that even with solid evidence before him will be able to deny it.
[EDITED BY RENDS we_cat_global - Please no insulting !] . Show him his place. Furthermore i would not spend too much energy on him.
Cheers,
JB
@Adrian Ashfield
Adrian, what would you do with a QuarkQX? It would require fifty thousand of them for a megawatt source, each requiring control, a source of input power, cooling and coordination. Not to mention that just sitting there, they run at 2600 degree C. Please tell me you understand how preposterous this claim is!
@everyone
It is the frequent way of choosing marks for con men to make claims so preposterous that anyone smart enough to require proper testing will not even bother to pay attention. This is one of the reasons Nigerian scams in email are so badly done. It's on purpose. Nigerian scammers do not try to appeal to smart people-- it's a waste of effort. Free energy scammers do something similar and that is exactly what Rossi has done with his QuarkQX claims.
Well, when millions of dollars are involved, one has to deal with the investors' attorneys and not just the investors. It is befuddling to me that IH's attorneys allowed the initial 10.5 to 11.5 million investment when NASA's attorneys and the Hydrofusion investor team's attorneys both vetoed investment in the Ecat. Since the Ecat people chose to take IH to court, the attorneys for the next investment team will be very careful to avoid the hassle of being sued by the Ecat people. That's why I previously said future investments in the Ecat will be more difficult to find.
Since the Ecat people chose to take IH to court, the attorneys for the next investment team will be very careful to avoid the hassle of being sued by the Ecat people. That's why I previously said future investments in the Ecat will be more difficult to find.
Just treat the inventor fairly. Don't start funding his competitors. Don't renege when it is time to pay. And you'll be fine with Rossi.
QuoteAgain if you have any real evidence that there was a fraud go to police ! If not ...... think better before you write!
Again, someone already has... several different ways. And it is being investigated by Florida state agencies. It probably has a low priority as compared to crimes involving much more money and those involving violence.
QuoteIn Mercato Veritas. If his technology is junk, it will be found out soon enough in the market.
Rossi has never marketed ecats of any sort and has no customers. He only has investor victims (marks) who get nothing for their money. Actually, Rossi's main distributor threw in the towel when he kept asking Rossi for demos for real customers and even had some orders but Rossi would never accept the orders and offer a firm price and a delivery date. I forget where this is documented but I bet someone else knows. That story makes sense because it is much easier to charge and prosecute for fraud if Rossi had actually accepted a deposit for a very specific device that he claimed he could supply or signed a contract to deliver a working ecat within a time period. (in my non-lawyer opinion) And he still may get charged for the IH debacle.
QuoteIt is befuddling to me that IH's attorneys allowed the initial 10.5 to 11.5 million investment when NASA's attorneys and the Hydrofusion investor team's attorneys both vetoed investment in the Ecat. Since the Ecat people chose to take IH to court, the attorneys for the next investment team will be very careful to avoid the hassle of being sued by the Ecat people. That's why I previously said future investments in the Ecat will be more difficult to find.
To be charitable, they took a big gamble. To be more realistic, they acted negligently and incompetently with other people's money. As to future investments, yes more difficult to find but not impossible. There's a new rich idiot made every once in a while.
The other thing I'll add is that IH had complete, exclusive access to E-cat IP for about 3 or 4 years or so. They also had a team of highly qualified scientists working on it for them. None of the other bloggers, posters, talking heads, or believers have had any scientific access at all, much less complete access as IH had, to the ECat technology. The fact that IH gave it all back for nothing in return but mutually ending the case clearly shows what they thought it was worth ($0). This includes the present Ecat as well as all future iterations the Ecat people will come out with (quarks, etc..). I also predict that the quark will have one carefully scripted demo which is ruled as a success. The quark will be abandoned soon after that for another new improved version of the Ecat with nothing ever coming of the quarkx. This will repeat until the Ecat people run out of money or find someone else to invest in them. Hopefully, it's the former and not the latter.
Hi Lenrisnotreal,
It sort of goes like this:
DOH!
DOH!
DOH!
DOH!
In Mercato Veritas. If his technology is junk, it will be found out soon enough in the market. If his technology is LENR, then this was a good thing.
Really?
Over the last 10 years Rossi has oscillated between titillating followers with a new demo - later found to be flawed. And keeping quiet doing 'development' answering all questions with "I'm only interested in the market, which will decide".
During this period he has never sold product, but he has extracted money from many others: for licences to sell product. The latest and biggest case of this was IH. None of his licensees have ever been able to sell product. That does not much bother Rossi as long as he can find fresh licensees to provide funds.
People were saying what you said now 5 years ago. By now they have mostly seen the light. For Rossi, that does not matter, he will always be able to gain new converts.
So: how soon is soon enough? For you? Just so we know?
In poker parlance, the remaining Rossi believers are "all in". They really have nothing to lose at this point by sticking with their hero. They have already distinguished themselves as spectacularly gullible people without a lick of sense and incapable of critical thinking. So they will just play it out forever if need be. The worst that can happen is that they will continue to look like total idiots, which obviously doesn't trouble them in the least. On the other hand, if a miracle were to happen and Rossi actually turns out to have something meaningful, they can gloat for the rest of their lives. They stuck it to "the man" (whoever that might be in this case.)
The prototypical Rossi acolyte has little or no scientific acumen and somehow got sucked into this saga years ago. This was their big chance to be smarter than people who actually know something and put themselves ahead of the rest of the crowd with their perceptiveness. They have a great deal of ego riding on this. It took a lot of guts for former believers to bail on Rossi. It is basically admitting that you were scammed, and nobody likes to do that. That is why few scammers actually get sued or prosecuted. Their victims just disappear in shame.
So THH's question of what it will take to finally persuade the faithful has an easy answer: for most of them, there is nothing that will persuade them.
Display MoreHi Lenrisnotreal,
It sort of goes like this:
- IH supporter: "Woodford didn't make the investment because of Rossi. It was because of the other LENR players in their portfolio."
- Woodford: "Rossi's e-Cat was core to our investment."
DOH!
- IH supporter: "The dispute had nothing to do with the IP. The IP is worthless and IH knew it all along"
- Woodford: "This dispute is about control of the IP."
DOH!
- IH supporter (before the settlement): "I'll admit that if IH lets go of the license, they will have perceived their position as weak."
- IH supporter (after the settlement): "IH was very smart to give back the license, because it was worthless."
DOH!
- IH supporter: "IH is going to bury Rossi and expose him for the scum that he is."
- IH settles with nothing in return, other than the ability to walk away from it all
DOH!
Well IHFanboy, my position has never changed. My name says it all. I accurately predicted years ago on another site exactly how this would turn out: no product to market, no verification by IH that this works, and IH eventually abandoning the Ecat, as 100% of entities who spend their time and money with LENR/CF always do. Please don't lump me with people who had any hope this would turn out any other way. It will take a lot more than plumbing thrown together in a garage to violate the laws of nuclear physics. Just ask the scientists who spend billions at a time to rigorously prove and verify those laws.
In poker parlance, the remaining Rossi believers are "all in". They really have nothing to lose at this point by sticking with their hero. They have already distinguished themselves as spectacularly gullible people without a lick of sense and incapable of critical thinking. So they will just play it out forever if need be. The worst that can happen is that they will continue to look like total idiots, which obviously doesn't trouble them in the least. On the other hand, if a miracle were to happen and Rossi actually turns out to have something meaningful, they can gloat for the rest of their lives. They stuck it to "the man" (whoever that might be in this case.)
The prototypical Rossi acolyte has little or no scientific acumen and somehow got sucked into this saga years ago. This was their big chance to be smarter than people who actually know something and put themselves ahead of the rest of the crowd with their perceptiveness. They have a great deal of ego riding on this. It took a lot of guts for former believers to bail on Rossi. It is basically admitting that you were scammed, and nobody likes to do that. That is why few scammers actually get sued or prosecuted. Their victims just disappear in shame.
So THH's question of what it will take to finally persuade the faithful has an easy answer: for most of them, there is nothing that will persuade them.
How does tour thinking evolve if Rossi's device produces such intense subatomic particle production that no commercial applications of his technologies are possible? Will that make you happy at Rossi;s misfortune?
Display MoreReally?
Over the last 10 years Rossi has oscillated between titillating followers with a new demo - later found to be flawed. And keeping quiet doing 'development' answering all questions with "I'm only interested in the market, which will decide".
During this period he has never sold product, but he has extracted money from many others: for licences to sell product. The latest and biggest case of this was IH. None of his licensees have ever been able to sell product. That does not much bother Rossi as long as he can find fresh licensees to provide funds.
People were saying what you said now 5 years ago. By now they have mostly seen the light. For Rossi, that does not matter, he will always be able to gain new converts.
So: how soon is soon enough? For you? Just so we know?
Rossi says In Mercato Veritas. As you point out there is zero in mercato, so there is zero veritas using Rossi's own words. Maybe Rossi should change it to be "in futuras mercato veritas" but then it forces the market to look at his past, in praeteritus mercato veritas determinat, basically past results suggest future veritas...
If you guys are so convinced Rossi is guilty of fraud, why aren't you harrassing the local criminal fraud investigators?
Hi IHFB,
IH supporter (before the settlement): "I'll admit that if IH lets go of the license, they will have perceived their position as weak."
IH supporter (after the settlement): "IH was very smart to give back the license, because it was worthless."DOH!
Since you're referring to two things I've sort of said, I'll clarify that what I had in mind was not in conflict. (1) It seems straightforward that IH perceived themselves to be in a weak position given that they walked away from a sunk cost of 10-20 million without seeking to recover it. (2) It seems plausible, if not obvious, that they did not perceive value in the IP itself, in contrast, say, to having it around as a protection against future lawsuits from Rossi, as woodworker has alluded to here, and as I have suggested before as well. In this scenario, the desire to extricate themselves would have outweighed the desire to hold onto the IP for the purpose of maintaining that kind of protection against future harassment. The perception of being in a weak position has no bearing on the perception of the value of the IP for any purpose.
Point (1) seems straightforward, and one that you are inclined to agree with. Point (2) is more speculative, but not ruled out. Your "DOH!" would seem to be premature, or perhaps a non sequitur.
Actually, Rossi's main distributor threw in the towel when he kept asking Rossi for demos for real customers and even had some orders but Rossi would never accept the orders and offer a firm price and a delivery date.... That story makes sense because it is much easier to charge and prosecute for fraud if Rossi had actually accepted a deposit for a very specific device that he claimed he could supply or signed a contract to deliver a working ecat within a time period. (in my non-lawyer opinion) And he still may get charged for the IH debacle.
That story also makes sense if Rossi has Inventor's Disease. Inventors can't stop tweaking their invention, their perfectionism drives everyone around them crazy.
You have your prism that you can't help but look through; your prism is an emotional one that says Rossi is a fraud. Everything you see generates confirmation bias.
Rossiphiles have their prism, that Rossi can do no wrong, etc. etc. Both sides seem to get wrapped around the axle.
What I'm interested in is what is the evidence and where is it going. Rossi taking the IP is evidence that he believes it is worth something. That pushes you to think he needs it to fleece more investors in the future. Rossi sued for breach of contract. That pushes you to think he's trying to fleece IH. Rossi and IH set up an independent 3rd party to observe and write the report. That pushes you to think he's the greatest con man in history that he hypnotized Penon. Rossi has published outright embellishments, hyperbole, and untruthful exaggerations on his blog. That pushes you to think he's a flimflam operator. Rossi is now an old man and isn't exactly taking his money and drinking mai tais on an island with no extradition treaties... when is he going to pull the trigger on this extremely long con? He'll be dead soon enough.
having it around as a protection against future lawsuits from Rossi,
The settlement states categorically that neither party can sue the other over these issues ever again. That was protection enough. IH was trying to hold onto the IP because they perceived it to be valuable. If their perception was that its only value was the bullshit protection you cite, they could have had that more than a year ago.
woodworker, what are your thoughts on @[email protected]'s assertion? Are there any circumstances under which Rossi could sue IH in the future for IP infringement, in light of the terms of the settlement as presently drafted? Had IH managed to hold onto the license, would it have been unnecessary and have added no value as a protection against future lawsuits of the kind you mentioned sometime back?
In poker parlance, the remaining Rossi believers are "all in". They really have nothing to lose at this point by sticking with their hero. They have already distinguished themselves as spectacularly gullible people without a lick of sense and incapable of critical thinking.
Except that our critical thinking yielded predictions that turned out to be correct. Whereas you contribute little to this forum.
