Prominent Gamma/L 0232 Flow Rate Test

  • I agree with Shane D. that of all the players in the whole IH/Rossi saga the least likely to be lying about what went on is Barry West. And I am now finding it increasingly difficult to imagine how he could be mistaken or mixed up when he says that the pumps on the Big Frankies were operated only intermittently when it was perceived that water levels were low. There is such a huge gap between his description and the version that requires all pumps to be working full out all day that I would be very interested if anyone can suggest how Mr West could have simply been mistaken. So I think it is time to take him seriously and consider what it would mean.


    One of the concepts that Mr Rossi floated rather late in the lawsuit was that there is a "recirculator" pump that stabilized a pressure head of water from the JMP side of the Doral facility and it was mainly this (and not the Prominent pumps) that pushed water into the Big Frankies at the rate of 36,000 L/day rate. OK, maybe, but I see only 2 ways this could work -- either the water bypasses the Prominent pumps and goes into the Big Frankies by a separate route, or the water is pushed straight through the Prominent pumps at a high rate regardless of their settings. The problem with the first proposal is that there is no photographic evidence at all for a separate route into the Big Frankies and the problem with the second proposal is that it sounds insane. Why have the Prominent pumps there at all if you are just going to push water straight through them? Maybe that second proposal is possible though.


    So I'd like some help. If anyone can suggest evidence for a separate route into the Big Frankies then I'd be fascinated. On the other hand maybe using a pressure head on the input to push water through a Prominent pump is something Alan Fletcher could try. Maybe that is how one could reach the high pump rates (either 83 L/hr or even 125 L/hr) that is required to meet Penon's reported overall flow rate for the 5 final months of the 1-year test.

  • I agree with Shane D. that of all the players in the whole IH/Rossi saga the least likely to be lying about what went on is Barry West. And I am now finding it increasingly difficult to imagine how he could be mistaken or mixed up when he says that the pumps on the Big Frankies were operated only intermittently when it was perceived that water levels were low. There is such a huge gap between his description and the version that requires all pumps to be working full out all day that I would be very interested if anyone can suggest how Mr West could have simply been mistaken. So I think it is time to take him seriously and consider what it would mean.


    One of the concepts that Mr Rossi floated rather late in the lawsuit was that there is a "recirculator" pump that stabilized a pressure head of water from the JMP side of the Doral facility and it was mainly this (and not the Prominent pumps) that pushed water into the Big Frankies at the rate of 36,000 L/day rate. OK, maybe, but I see only 2 ways this could work -- either the water bypasses the Prominent pumps and goes into the Big Frankies by a separate route, or the water is pushed straight through the Prominent pumps at a high rate regardless of their settings. The problem with the first proposal is that there is no photographic evidence at all for a separate route into the Big Frankies and the problem with the second proposal is that it sounds insane. Why have the Prominent pumps there at all if you are just going to push water straight through them? Maybe that second proposal is possible though.


    So I'd like some help. If anyone can suggest evidence for a separate route into the Big Frankies then I'd be fascinated. On the other hand maybe using a pressure head on the input to push water through a Prominent pump is something Alan Fletcher could try. Maybe that is how one could reach the high pump rates (either 83 L/hr or even 125 L/hr) that is required to meet Penon's reported overall flow rate for the 5 final months of the 1-year test.


    I may be incorrect, but it was my understanding that the holding tank, between JMP and the "Big Frankies" was an open circuit, exposed to the atmosphere. If that be the case, then a "recirculator" pump on the JMP side could not induce the water flow through the BF's. It would simply over flow the tank.


    Although, again, sooooo many dreamed up solutions by Rossi Fans to attempt to justify his conflicting posts, stories, photos etc. I have begin to lose what was factual and what was fanciful dreams. (Not that you are doing this here! I realize you are trying to look at actual evidence) Just like the whole heat exchanger story.... a big, big, big problem came to light and so a whole new apparatus was inserted into the story. Never seen, never before mentioned, no real evidence to support it. Only "missing" window panes that only one poster and an eight year old could see. Scratches on the floor and imaginary pipes.


    So now a recirculator pump will have to be magically summoned to over come the evidence based information about the Prominent pumps lack of capacity to meet the test's reported flow and even the possibility that they were not even running!


    Yes, indeed...... whose lies are we going to believe? :/ There are SO MANY to choose from! =O Although, in my opinion, from only one party in the drama.:rolleyes:


    Signed.....

    A "former believer" whose has been burned way, way to many times by Rossi's own words, actions and proven lies.

  • I may be incorrect, but it was my understanding that the holding tank, between JMP and the "Big Frankies" was an open circuit, exposed to the atmosphere.


    You aren't mistaken. Smith describes the internal tank as "eventually vented to atmosphere" so that "the pressure in the condensate return tank is atmospheric, or 0 barg".



    . If that be the case, then a "recirculator" pump on the JMP side could not induce the water flow through the BF's. It would simply over flow the tank.


    I agree. But Mr Rossi is angling to hold that most of the water entering the Big Frankies was pumped in under pressure from some source other than the Prominent pumps.

  • Great work on the manual/stop!


    Right now the flow/pressure chart is way below Prominent's data at 0.5 bar -- but they are most likely creating the back pressure with a regulator valve.

    In the present setup the back pressure across the pump is made up of:


    a) suction height

    b) outlet height

    c) fluid resistance in the pipe (about 25 feet ... I'll measure it exactly).


    I think we can get some information on c) by progressively shortening the output pipe and running the curves as before. (say height 20,15,10,5 feet pipe length 25,20,15,10) and then a final measurement with 1 foot of pipe. (I could do all this with the pipe horizontal, but I think the curve will show the quality of the readings).

    I'll scout for a better clock (going to San Francisco over Christmas).

  • The suction height pressure is independent of the outlet side back pressure when the outlet pressure is higher than the inlet pressure.
    The suction side is sealed from the outlet pressure by the (multiple) ball valves, preventing the suction side from communicating with the outlet side when the pump is operated correctly.

    It can only be additive to the outlet pressure if the inlet (suction side) pressure exceeds the outlet line pressure.

  • The suction height pressure is independent of the outlet side back pressure when the outlet pressure is higher than the inlet pressure.
    The suction side is sealed from the outlet pressure by the (multiple) ball valves, preventing the suction side from communicating with the outlet side when the pump is operated correctly.

    It can only be additive to the outlet pressure if the inlet (suction side) pressure exceeds the outlet line pressure.


    I think you are basically correct but I also think that Mr Rossi has been trying to suggest (indirectly, vaguely, and clumsily) that the inlet pressure does indeed exceed the outlet pressure. If this is so then from the diagram of the pump assembly it seems to me that the inlet pressure would unseat all of the 1-way ball valves and cause a steady state flow of water through the pump. I think this is something that Alan Fletcher might consider looking at in the future. In [particular, I would be very interested to know if there is a steady-state flow of water possible when the Prominent pump is not actually active (i.e., it is in manual/stop mode) and then I would like to compare that with the flow rate measure when the pump is put into action. From my assessment of the workings of this pump I think that there is the paradoxical possibility that starting up the pump might actually restrict the flow because the pressures generated by the solenoid inside the pump will dominate the external pressures and re-seat the valves at some parts of the pumping cycle. This would mean that far from being additive, the flows established by the pump itself and by a external inlet pressure would partly cancel each other.

  • Bruce__H ,

    I don't doubt for an instant that Rossi would stoop so low as to push water through metering pumps if it suited his agenda.

    There is past evidence for water in his devices performing "unconventional" feats.


    But since the pump test is science, let's not add things together when they are not additive.

  • Paradigmnoia


    Engineer48 says Rossi told him that most of the water flow through the Big Frankies was due to a single master pump and that the Prominent pumps were used as topping up pumps. I don't see any independent route for entry of this water into the Big Frankies so the water flow due to the master pump must be straight through the Prominent pumps and superimposed on the due to the pumps themselves.


    I think the relationship between water flow established by pressure on the inlet and flow due to the action of the Prominent pump itself is something we could determine empirically with Alan Fletcher's cooperation. It could very well be that the 83 L/hr required of each pump is not possible even with external pressure but then maybe it is possible. And even if 83 L/hr is possible I really do wonder about the 125 L/hr that seems to be needed from each pump when the plant is in the configuration it seems to be in on the last day of its operation (only 2 Big Frankies operating).

  • I wont have any time for a couple of weeks. (I've left my pole up, but I'll move back to the covered porch).


    I have max 10 feet (floor to ceiling) .


    Plan A : try and replicate the heights of the tank, pumps and Frankies (A to D, top-to-bottom) . Not sure I can replicate the top big frankie A in the space available. Do we have the dimensions : top-of-tank to pump-center, pump-center to BF inlet for each BF?


    Plan B : explore positive inlet pressure.

    I don't think a 7-foot head is enough positive pressure .. maybe 0.2 bar with the pump near the floor and the inlet tank

    I can get a garden hose there (as long as it's not a hard freeze), but I think that's too uncontrollable as a pressure source. To explore significant positive-pressure I think I'd need a pump. Specifications? 125 l/hr? We could reduce the stroke-frequency from 180 to ... 90?

  • The center-line is 4 inches above the base. The inlet/outlet tubes are 5 inches below/above that. My pressure guage doesn't work at these pressures, so the 1/2 inch tubes can connect directly without T's or L's

    I'm working with a 6 foot (72 inch) wire-frame shelf (with 1" shelf-height increments). I'd like to set the middle-shelf for the pump, and then adjust the buckets around that (One sits on the scale -- which reads +- so doesn't matter whether it's inlet or outlet).

  • Alan Fletcher


    Some measurements. These are naive measurements that disregard issues of perspective, angle of view, etc:...


    Tops of BF units to the ground

    BF1 = 78.7 inches (exactly 2m)

    BF2 = 57.4 inches

    BF3 = 36.8 inches

    BF4 = 18 inches


    BF unit height

    13.4 inches


    Top of a BF unit to centre of pump

    7.9 inches


    BF water level (estimated) to centre of pump (i.e., outlet pressure)

    4.6 inches


    Centre of pump to BF inlet

    -3.2 inches