Prominent Gamma/L 0232 Flow Rate Test

Quote from Alan Fletcher

The gauges were fouled at the end of the test. These are still shiny.

Hi Alan. If by gauges you mean the 4 sight glasses visible on the left edge of the setup then I would say that only the bottom one (i.e., the one for BF4) is clan and shiny. The others are range from dirty to filthy. Barry West talks about how they had to sometimes remove them and clean them out because they became choked with rusty sediment.

The bottom one is also lacking a meniscus as far as I can see. It should be visible in such a clean sight glass.

Quote from Alan Fletcher

The caption says "after b4 alteration".

That is my label. I created this particular version of Ahlfor's image when Engineer48 and I were mapping out the plumbing of the system. This was part of a sequence of photos showing the various states of the system. In this particular photo one can see that the original white insulation around the pipe leading from the pumps to BF4 has been removed and the pipes have been rearranged so that BF4 is no longer connected to the system drain (the vertical uninsulated pipe at the extreme left). This same rearrangement is still visible in a photo taken by Smith during his tour of the Doral facility in 2017, more than a year after the test ended. The rearrangement was therefore permanent once it was made.

Because of the rearrangement, and because of the clean sight glass with no meniscus showing, I have been assuming that what we are seeing in the image is a non-working BF4 unit ... permanently closed down and dry. I think it was in this state from August 2015 onwards, as reflected in mod October report by Penon. It would be interesting to find out where Alhfors got the image.

Quote from Bruce__H

The mezzanine had marks on the floor, but they were inconsistent with the heat exchanger described in the Rossi v Darden case documents.

It is a problem that you now take inaccurate information and promote it as a fact.

If one were to construct a heat exchanger, one would do it on beams so that air would flow beneath it as well. There are clear 90 degree angled markings on the floor that would be consistent with such beams. The mezzanine room dimensions are sized sufficiently to accommodate a heat exchanger.

Quote from IH Fanboy

If one were to construct a heat exchanger, one would do it on beams so that air would flow beneath it as well. There are clear 90 degree angled markings on the floor that would be consistent with such beams. The mezzanine room dimensions are sized sufficiently to accommodate a heat exchanger.

The marks on the mezzanine floor are the wrong size for the heat exchanger described in the court documents.

Quote from Bruce__H

The marks on the mezzanine floor are the wrong size for the heat exchanger described in the court documents.

And you think this eliminates the possibility that a heat exchanger was placed on beams?

Quote from IH Fanboy

And you think this eliminates the possibility that a heat exchanger was placed on beams?

I think that the marks made by the beams would have generally reflected the size and positioning of the heat exchanger.

I understand what you are saying -- that the beams could have acted like a pedestal upon which the heat exchanger would have sat and which it would have overhung on all sides -- but this is a weak argument. It is an argument designed to allow you to claim that almost any pattern of marks on the floor are evidence of a heat exchanger.

So no, the marks do not logically eliminate the possibility that a heat exchanger was there, they are not particularly consistent with it either. My main concern is that you then take this weak evidence and turn it into the assertion that "The mezzanine had all the markings for what used to be a heat exchanger." It didn't.

Quote from Bruce__H

I think that the marks made by the beams would have generally reflected the size and positioning of the heat exchanger.

I understand what you are saying -- that the beams could have acted like a pedestal upon which the heat exchanger would have sat and which it would have overhung on all sides -- but this is a weak argument. It is an argument designed to allow you to claim that almost any pattern of marks on the floor are evidence of a heat exchanger.

So no, the marks do not logically eliminate the possibility that a heat exchanger was there, they are not particularly consistent with it either. My main concern is that you then take this weak evidence and turn it into the assertion that "The mezzanine had all the markings for what used to be a heat exchanger." It didn't.

You make your assumptions. I make mine.

Quote from IH Fanboy

You make your assumptions. I make mine.

No. Your assumptions are convoluted and specially adapted to come to the conclusions you desire. Mine aren't.

It is always helpful to reduce assumptions though. Along these lines, I again request your view on the video of the hose emitting steam at just under 6 kg/hour. Would you not agree that Mr Rossi's hose in the Krivit video is emitting steam at a much lower velocity even though Rossi claims to be generating steam at a higher rate (7kg/h)? The nice thing about the 6 kg/h video is that this steam is also delivered through a hose that is several metres long ... like Rossi's. So, if Rossi's steam is a weak dribble because of internal condensation then that should be the case in the other video too. But it isn't. I sense thaqt you arfe resisting comparing the two videos but I wish you would go ahead and do so.

Quote from Bruce__H

No. Your assumptions are convoluted and specially adapted to come to the conclusions you desire. Mine aren't.

And yours are specially adapted to come to the conclusion you desire. For example, when I provide a remarkable observation such as the aggregate pump rate as measured by Alan NEARLY EXACTLY matches the pump rates of the BF3 and BF4, it's almost entirely lost on you and other hyper-skeptics. Yet the probability of this being a coincidence is astronomically low. I've knocked down so much BS on this forum over the years by simply highlighting the evidence on the record, it sometimes makes me wonder how incompetent (or perhaps deceitful) so many people here are. I don't know what motivates you and others. I actually respect you much more than some others here, but you are driven, and I don't really understand by what nature you are here, and for what reasons you devote such great time and effort to your cause.

Quote

It is always helpful to reduce assumptions though. Along these lines, I again request your view on the video of the hose emitting steam at just under 6 kg/hour. Would you not agree that Mr Rossi's hose in the Krivit video is emitting steam at a much lower velocity even though Rossi claims to be generating steam at a higher rate (7kg/h)? The nice thing about the 6 kg/h video is that this steam is also delivered through a hose that is several metres long ... like Rossi's. So, if Rossi's steam is a weak dribble because of internal condensation then that should be the case in the other video too. But it isn't. I sense thaqt you arfe resisting comparing the two videos but I wish you would go ahead and do so.

I told you my view. But I guess you continue to insist that I don't respond to your critiques, so I'll give you a bit more: you post a video and claim it is 6kg/hour, but we have no idea about who made that video, whether it is accurate, whether it was independently checked, who is behind it, etc. And to be honest, while it does appear to have a bit more oomph, it is in the ballpark of what we observe with Rossi's hose.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I don't know what motivates you and others. I actually respect you much more than some others here, but you are driven, and I don't really understand by what nature you are here, and for what reasons you devote such great time and effort to your cause.

They are nothing but simple humans so their motivations are simple as well; wrath, envy, greed and pride explains most of it I suppose. There are always personal incentives. To some it just a job and a paycheck, to some it seems existential...

Quote from IH Fanboy

And yours are specially adapted to come to the conclusion you desire.

Truly, my assumptions are not slanted in this way. The very reason I like the Krivit video is that people can carry out measurements and directly compare the results with what Rossi claims. Anyone else can do the same. When I started the measurements and calculations (and assumptions) I did not really know how they would turn out and would have reported everything regardless of the results. If you go back an look at the assumptions I make they are just standard physical assumptions.

Quote from IH Fanboy

For example, when I provide a remarkable observation such as the aggregate pump rate as measured by Alan NEARLY EXACTLY matches the pump rates of the BF3 and BF4, it's almost entirely lost on you and other hyper-skeptics.

This isn't an assumption, it is an observation. But it fails to differentiate between the 2 alternatives I am interested in ... Rossi faking thing or Rossi is the real deal. In particular, if Rossi is a fake then the reason you see a match between the claimed 36,000 L/d and the output of 24 pumps is that Rossi planned it this way. You need to realize that in the original configuration of the Doral plant there were actually upwards of 75 pumps and that even at 32 L/hr these would easily easily have pumped the amount of water corresponding to the 1 MW of heat that Rossi was interested in generating. That initial configuration lasted up to the day before the 1-year test actually began. On that day (the day after Penon had left after hiss first site visit) Rossi radically reconfigured the plant by closing down all the small ecats and their pumps This left only 24 pumps on the BF units. But these were just enough to push 1 MW of water through the system. As Rossi said in his post trial interview with Mats Lewan, he had years and years of experience with pumps of this type and knew their capabilities.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I told you my view. But I guess you continue to insist that I don't respond to your critiques, so I'll give you a bit more: you post a video and claim it is 6kg/hour, but we have no idea about who made that video, whether it is accurate, whether it was independently checked, who is behind it, etc. And to be honest, while it does appear to have a bit more oomph, it is in the ballpark of what we observe with Rossi's hose.

I apologize for not seeing your previous reply on this. I looked for it but couldn't find it.

If you look at the 6 kg/hr video you will see that the 6 kg/hr figure is not an assertion ... it is a result of calculations that use measurements made in the body of the video. In the video the operator sparges the steam for 60 seconds into a weighed bucket of water and notes the change in temperature this evokes. This is an absolutely standard way off assessing the amount of energy in steam. It is the sort of thing that Penon should have done. Using the measurements and the heat capacity of water you can then find the energy in the steam. Making these calculations shows gives 5.7 kg/hr of steam.

The velocity of steam coming out of the hose in the 6 kg/hr video is much greater than coming out of Rossi's hose. Much greater. You are not being honest when you say it is in the ballpark and I think you need to think about this within yourself.

Quote from Bruce__H

I think you need to think about this within yourself.

Entering my meditation period now. Hoping for enlightenment.

Quote from Shane D.

No visitor noticed very hot air exiting the window a few feet over their heads, ...

Shane,

You know I have doubts on the heat exchanger. But you and Para keep saying things like the above without evidentiary support. I was quite surprised when people weren't asked this question in the depositions (at least not in the excerpts that we have access to). If they were asked, both Rossi and IH have kept their answers from us.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Shane,

You know I have doubts on the heat exchanger. But you and Para keep saying things like the above without evidentiary support. I was quite surprised when people weren't asked this question in the depositions (at least not in the excerpts that we have access to). If they were asked, both Rossi and IH have kept their answers from us.

It is far more likely that with the 40-odd visitor-day events and no one of them can corroborate fans blowing 250000 cfm (or whatever it was) out the front window barely 15 feet from the front door because the fans were not there than the said fans went blowing unnoticed.

Wong claimed the fans were directly in the place of the bottom two holes (panes). All four window panes were missing when Wong was there.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

It is far more likely that with the 40-odd visitor-day events and no one of them can corroborate fans blowing 250000 cfm (or whatever it was) out the front window barely 15 feet from the front door because the fans were not there than the said fans went blowing unnoticed.

Wong claimed the fans were directly in the place of the bottom two holes (panes). All four window panes were missing when Wong was there.

Correction, IIRC Wong said that Rossi claimed where the fans were. Again, IIRC, Wong never saw the fans.

Quote from steppenwolf

They are nothing but simple humans so their motivations are simple as well; wrath, envy, greed and pride explains most of it I suppose. There are always personal incentives.

By the way, I am wondering who will be Rossi’s heirs?

In the Rossi as JMP deposition, which I have as Document 326 Page 171 of 300, deposition pages 91 through 95, Rossi seems to describe the mezzanine heat exchanger as being re-used in the Doral premises for another purpose. In another plant at the same location.

The heat exchanger in the mezzanine is the one in the black container imagined to the upstairs room to mansplain the severe heat issues, IMHO.

The piping was still in the warehouse, and being used for something. Since it was not in a giant pile of pipes which could be pointed out as being the former upstairs exhanger,it had to be in plain site somewhere else. The black box. It was probably hoped that Schrodinger-like uncertainty would hold for the question of the contents the black box during the Doral Plant period, so it could be shown that the pipes could have been moved into there. Except they were seen within, prior to the end, when they were supposed to be upstairs. So instead the pipes just disappeared into the same field disturbance of the Dirac sea they originally spontaneously formed from, closing the loop, but leaving within our universe a trail of anti-information that annihilates to pure disinterest when it meets equal amounts of information....

Quote from Paradigmnoia

In the Rossi as JMP deposition, which I have as Document 326 Page 171 of 300, deposition pages 91 through 95, Rossi seems to describe the mezzanine heat exchanger as being re-used in the Doral premises for another purpose. In another plant at the same location.

The heat exchanger in the mezzanine is the one in the black container imagined to the upstairs room to mansplain the severe heat issues, IMHO.

The piping was still in the warehouse, and being used for something. Since it was not in a giant pile of pipes which could be pointed out as being the former upstairs exhanger,it had to be in plain site somewhere else. The black box. It was probably hoped that Schrodinger-like uncertainty would hold for the question of the contents the black box during the Doral Plant period, so it could be shown that the pipes could have been moved into there. Except they were seen within, prior to the end, when they were supposed to be upstairs. So instead the pipes just disappeared into the same field disturbance of the Dirac sea they originally spontaneously formed from, closing the loop, but leaving within our universe a trail of anti-information that annihilates to pure disinterest when it meets equal amounts of information....

There was a set of large pipes that appeared at some point after the Doral test ended. They hung on the wall near the JMP black box and reached up and partly across the ceiling. There are not quite enough of them there to make up the claimed mezzanine heat exchanger but they are of the right diameter.

Bruce__H ,

Right. They were supposed to be 6 inch pipes upstairs.

I see they took the stairs off in recent real estate photos. Must have been greatly overstressed by all that heavy lifting. Even Wong remarked on the rickety stairs.