Prominent Gamma/L 0232 Flow Rate Test

"Naah .... can't read the dials."

False - you are a bit too fast in judgment, as many others "I know all" bloggers of the forum.

Quote from Alan Fletcher

??? Is THIS PHOTO Of the Doral 1MW in action. The stroke length is set to 40% not 100% !!!

Interesting picture. Where is it from?

I think that ...

1) This is a very early picture, taken before the 1 year test began. You can see that most of the plastic tubing that is visible is clean whereas in all other photos of the Big Frankies at Doral the tubing going into or out of the Prominent pumps is full of rusty water. Of the 3 pumps visible in the photo, only the middle one has rusty water in its tubing. There are also some tubing that you can see behind the pumps. This tubing is also clean. So this photo must have been taken before most of the system had ever been used.

2) The pumps we see in the photo are the rightmost ones in the rank of pumps that sits in front of the Big Frankie that is the second from the bottom. You can tell that these are for the second lowest Big Frankie because of the configuration of the tubing that you see behind the pumps. These plastic tubes are meant to carry water to the inlets of the pumps that are in the rank above the pumps in the photo. If you look at other photos of the entire Big Frankie setup you can follow these input tubes at each level and you will see that they are arranged differently for each Big Frankie. The arrangement here matches the second from bottom one. I don't know what it means but of all the pumps in the whole setup it is only the 2 rightmost ones on the second from bottom rank that have setting different from all the others.

Edit: The state of the system here seems to correspond to the image called "Rack II.jpg" that Ahlfors has published above. It is plain that the entire system is very clean. This must be just after it was assembled and before it was put into operation.

Quote from Alan Fletcher

E48 believes there's a MASTER pump ... and the Prominents only do topping up.

Yes, he does. But he and I have been back and forth looking for how this would work and haven't figured it out. Engineer48 used to hold that the vertical pipe visible to the left of the Big Frankies carried water from this master pump in a parallel path to the water b going through Prominent pumps. However I have shown him that this vertical pipe is not connected to the water pipe supplying the Prominent pumps (Engineer48 never acknowledged this but he has recently dropped his contention). There doesn't seem to be any alternative way for water from this master pump to enter the Big Frankies other than through the Prominent pumps.

This is why inlet pressure is an important issue. Within the past month Rossi, Randombit0, and ele have all begun to build a picture that there is pressure at the inlet side of the Prominent pumps. The situation is unclear as it often is with Rossisays, but the idea is that something, maybe a "recirculator" or maybe a head of water that goes up the the second storey, that sits on the the JMP side of the Doral facility is putting pressure on the water that flows into the Prominent pumps. If inlet pressure like this is capable of causing the Prominent pumps to transfer up to 83.3 L/H of water then maybe that is the answer. The problem with that scheme, however, is that Penon, Barry West, and Rick Smith all indicate that the reservoir that holds the water feeding the Prominent pumps seems to be at atmospheric pressure. Even Rossi at various times seems to indicate it is at atmospheric pressure.

So the whole thing is a mess. If you ask me, Rossi likes it that way.

Quote from Bruce__H

Yes, he does. But he and I have been back and forth looking for how this would work and haven't figured it out. Engineer48 used to hold that the vertical pipe visible to the left of the Big Frankies carried water from this master pump in a parallel path to the water b going through Prominent pumps. However I have shown him that this vertical pipe is not connected to the water pipe supplying the Prominent pumps (Engineer48 never acknowledged this but he has recently dropped his contention). There doesn't seem to be any alternative way for water from this master pump to enter the Big Frankies other than through the Prominent pumps.

This is why inlet pressure is an important issue. Within the past month Rossi, Randombit0, and ele have all begun to build a picture that there is pressure at the inlet side of the Prominent pumps. The situation is unclear as it often is with Rossisays, but the idea is that something, maybe a "recirculator" or maybe a head of water that goes up the the second storey, that sits on the the JMP side of the Doral facility is putting pressure on the water that flows into the Prominent pumps. If inlet pressure like this is capable of causing the Prominent pumps to transfer up to 83.3 L/H of water then maybe that is the answer. The problem with that scheme, however, is that Penon, Barry West, and Rick Smith all indicate that the reservoir that holds the water feeding the Prominent pumps seems to be at atmospheric pressure. Even Rossi at various times seems to indicate it is at atmospheric pressure.

So the whole thing is a mess. If you ask me, Rossi likes it that way.

The key issue is this. IF there is a master pump separate from these then we have no idea what it pumps where, and the possibilities for recirculation of hot water (the flow of which costs nothing in terms of energy input) are good.

Rossi, whether innocently or not, is clearly very capable of putting a system together which has incorrect plumbing and recirculates hot water, so everything is on the table.

Quote from Ahlfors

"Naah .... can't read the dials."

False - you are a bit too fast in judgment, as many others "I know all" bloggers of the forum.

Pumps 2 and 4 clearly say 180. The others aren't so clear. They could say 180 but they could also say 100 or 108 or 130.

Hi Bruce__H. I'm Stephen over on ECW. I just wanted to clarify one point above. I don't think E48 was suggesting vertical pipe was returning water flow. I did suggest it at one point though during the discussion and it was eventually clarified by the more careful investigation and discussion in subsequent post by your self and E48. So probably I was responsible in some way for that confusion.

I think E48 was on the other hand suggesting it was a vent pipe and the hight of it implied the water was under some pressure. It's a good idea and point I think.

There were also some different arrangements of pipe work in this area in different photos which suggests it may have some other use such as for drainage of the system.

I couldn't personally say if it is under pressure or not but there have been some posts saying it's "obvious" the external and internal water tanks in the Doral facility were open to the elements.

I would really like to see those pictures. All the ones I have seen look closed to me. Perhaps someone could kindly post those obvious pictures.

Personally I'm curious about the effect of syphoning and suction at the out let of the pump.

Has this been tested in Alan's set up?

Would the pump limit this effect?

If so Would it require a different water path than the additional pumped flow through the pumps?

I must admit the various topics including this one are moving so fast I can't keep up with them and do my normal work. I think this a good sign though as what ever comes up in the end all these and debates about the whole field of LENR both experiment and theory are being thourghly worked on and considered by a lot of people now.

StephenC

It seems the heat exchanger topic - always the strongest and easiest technical argument against Rossi's claims - is not being considered by ECW! Although it has been pretty thoroughly considered here.

There is no way by design that such kind of precision solenoid metering pumps can double or triple their maximum dose, even when using other than athmospheric pressure in the pipes. So any reports or claims far away from the max. 32l/h is nonsense. As someone mentioned Rossi should have had checked his equipment and plumbing and the claims with a professional plumber before starting to grasp on those straws...

The master pump floater belongs in the same category as the 2nd floor heat exchanger.

Hi Stephen,

Engineer48's idea (based on information he said he got from Rossi) was that a master pump pressurized the water in the reservoir feeding the Big Frankies so as to put a 2.5 metre head of pressure on it. The reservoir sits on the floor of the red E-Cat shipping container. A white insulated pipe emerges from it and runs along the floor to the area with the Prominent pumps. You can see this white insulated pipe running along the right hand side of the Big Frankies setup at floor level in most photos, for instance in the photo in post #381 on this thread. That pipe is then connected to a series of 4 short parallel insulated pipes that turn 90 degrees and run along the floor in front of the Prominent pumps. If you look at this part of the rig in photos you can see a series of yellow shutoff valves just where each of the short pipe sections makes their 90 degree turns.

So water from the reservoir comes along and fills the short insulated sections of piping lying on the floor of the setup underneath the Prominent pumps. This water then travels up in plastic tubing to the pumps themselves and then from there into the Big Frankies, just as "friend of Rossi's" has diagrammed in post #240 on this thread. Engineer48's contention was that not only did water travel the route I have just described, but that there was also a parallel route in which water carried on from the short section on the floor underneath the Promeinent pumps and flowed directly into the uninsulated vertical pipe standing to the left of the setup. Because Engineer48 thinks there is a head of pressure on the water he believed that the water entering the vertical pipe would climb up it and then enter the Big Frankies directly. In fact he contended that that this accounted for a large part of the water entering the system and that the Prominent pumps were just for "topping up". The problem with this scheme (other than the lack of a head of pressure on the water) is that the short section of pipe lying on the floor underneath the Prominent pumps does not connect to long vertical pipe at all. You can see this clearly in the photo in post #381. I think that vertical pipe is a drain, which is why it is the only uninsulated pipe you see on the rig.

As far as I can see the only way that water is supposed to enter the Big Frankies is through the Prominent pumps. If there is a master pump somewhere then it would have to be pushing water through the Prominent pumps.

Quote from THHuxleynew

The key issue is this. IF there is a master pump separate from these then we have no idea what it pumps where, and the possibilities for recirculation of hot water (the flow of which costs nothing in terms of energy input) are good.

Rossi, whether innocently or not, is clearly very capable of putting a system together which has incorrect plumbing and recirculates hot water, so everything is on the table.

There are 2 issues really ...

1) Is the flow that Rossi claims even possible?

2) What was the real flow

Number 2) is pretty undefined. Here is a suggesttion. I think that at the bottom of the "steam riser" for the Big Frankies section of the plant is a valve that is supposedly for purging the riser of condensate that might collect there (there has to be something like that in the system). Open the valve and the riser purges into the condensate line returning from the JMP side. I think Smith spotted this and realized that you could use this valve to allow water to be driven backwards from the condensate return pipe right up into the riser. A "master pump' (the Grundfos) would be needed for this.

THHuxleynew . I don't think its not being considered it's just that we don't have the information. What evidence there is or not was discussed a lot a while ago.

There are many big gaps in the so far published Wong disposition. And having read more recent more complete dispositions of others I can see how easy it is to miss represent or miss understand what is actually known and discussed when only reading the earlier released partial dispositions.

Andrea Rossi's more complete disposition in Witness statement does fill in some gaps but does not explain everything about the exchanger.

As far as the equipment itself is concerned AR does mention having some kind of evidence (receipts or something) for the purchase of the pipes, fans and that his accountant should have them and if I recall he said he could request them for IH lawyers if they wanted. If that data exists and fits the time frame then it would be difficult to discount them. We never saw the missing middle photo of inside the Customer plant. But it existed and is discussed in the dispositions... so in general there is a lot we can only guess at as far as the equipment is concerned.

Regarding the thermal engineering I guess many curious minds have read your thread here but don't really have anything to add. You have considered a model which I think you considered carefully given what we know but it also based on some guess work or estimates of the engineering used based on supplied data to some extent.

I'm not a thermal engineer so could not discuss expertly how to model such a system unfortunately but I do sometimes work with thermal engineers and I know it is sometimes very complex and hard to model correctly.

That said a simpler high level model can give us insights so I appreciate the effort. I just suppose we need to know more about the design itself to better understand it.

It does seem to me he is using the fans more like an industrial blower than a more general fan use though Especially if E48 suggested ducted design fits.

There are those on ECW like my self who think it was most likely there. There are also those who think not. But all agree we personally have not seen enough data to prove it one way or another. And all agree we do not personally know enough about the engineering actually used in the heat exchanger to prove if it could have worked as specified or not. I suspect that the IH lawyers did see enough though.

There are no doubt people in the world of a temperament to enjoy being the cause of this kind of runaround. If we take a pessimistic view of things, impatience with such a continually and retroactively revised description of things might also serve as an implicit criterion for sending away those who would not be tractable business partners.

Quote from Bob

1) Why in the world would anyone (even Rossi) use 24 pumps that the clear manufacturer's parameters state where not close to the standard capacity needed for the 1MW plant. People here are attempting to "figure" out how they can "make it work"! Simply ask Rossi for the specifics! Plumbing has nothing to do with secret "IP"! If I were a Rossi believer, I would be extremely frustrated, even mad, that he does not put this to rest! (Of course my opinion is that he cannot, so he does not)

An explanation someone attempted to bring out quite some time ago was that the exact flow of liquid/water going into those E-Cats is part of what Rossi considers IP and crucial to make that specific implementation properly work; so following this he could have had reasons to hide and/or misrepresent the data. Might also in part explain why he decided to use so many relatively expensive smaller pumps, at least when purchased new (24x ~1500$? A costly exercise just to build something that was never intended to work, but that could have been the point, arguably).

Quote from Bob

1) Why in the world would anyone (even Rossi) use 24 pumps that the clear manufacturer's parameters state where not close to the standard capacity needed for the 1MW plant.

There is an answer. The Doral plant actually contains not just the Big Frankies but also about 50 small ecat reactors. Most of these small reactors have their own Prominent pump as can be seen form photos of the inside of the plant. So the original plan was to have something like 60 pumps going (this number is actually listed somewhere in Penon's reports but I can't find it right now). With this number of pumps at work there should would be no problem achieving 36,000 L/day ... each pump would only have to deliver something like 25 L/H.

But the original scheme went wrong somehow. There were leaks and constant electrical shorts. So much so that 2 weeks after the plant was started up (but before Penon's official test period began), all of the smaller units with their pumps were shut down permanently. This left only the 24 pumps on the Big Frankies in operation. Rossi still wanted 1 MW productions, however, and so those few pumps were supposed to carry the entire load.

It is not clear to me whether or not the shutdown of the smaller ecats was really due to functional problems. It turns out that all of the fuel charges in the smaller E-Cat units were manufactured and put in place by IH at a time when Rossi was not around (this was in N Carolina). In contrast, the fuel charges in the Big Frankies were 100% Rossi-controlled. Rossi may have been worried that IH had placed a few "control" charges full of dummy fuel into some of the small E-Cats and so shut them all down.

Quote from StephenC

THHuxleynew . I don't think its not being considered it's just that we don't have the information. What evidence there is or not was discussed a lot a while ago.

There are many big gaps in the so far published Wong disposition. And having read more recent more complete dispositions of others I can see how easy it is to miss represent or miss understand what is actually known and discussed when only reading the earlier released partial dispositions.

Andrea Rossi's more complete disposition in Witness statement does fill in some gaps but does not explain everything about the exchanger.

As far as the equipment itself is concerned AR does mention having some kind of evidence (receipts or something) for the purchase of the pipes, fans and that his accountant should have them and if I recall he said he could request them for IH lawyers if they wanted. If that data exists and fits the time frame then it would be difficult to discount them. We never saw the missing middle photo of inside the Customer plant. But it existed and is discussed in the dispositions... so in general there is a lot we can only guess at as far as the equipment is concerned.

Regarding the thermal engineering I guess many curious minds have read your thread here but don't really have anything to add. You have considered a model which I think you considered carefully given what we know but it also based on some guess work or estimates of the engineering used based on supplied data to some extent.

I'm not a thermal engineer so could not discuss expertly how to model such a system unfortunately but I do sometimes work with thermal engineers and I know it is sometimes very complex and hard to model correctly.

That said a simpler high level model can give us insights so I appreciate the effort. I just suppose we need to know more about the design itself to better understand it.

It does seem to me he is using the fans more like an industrial blower than a more general fan use though Especially if E48 suggested ducted design fits.

There are those on ECW like my self who think it was most likely there. There are also those who think not. But all agree we personally have not seen enough data to prove it one way or another. And all agree we do not personally know enough about the engineering actually used in the heat exchanger to prove if it could have worked as specified or not. I suspect that the IH lawyers did see enough though.

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Steven: I find it difficult to understand how ECW can rationalise this one. There is more precise info about the heat exchanger than anything else, and the thermal design is basic. Essentially, to make any such work you need much more power for the fans than is possible.

How could it have had much larger surface are from vanes? In that case Rossi would have had to deliberately leave these out when telling Wong - so making his expert witness evidence false in a way that disadvantages his case! that is weird even for Rossi.

Similarly for any other change that improved efficiency. Also adding these vanes would be a big job contradicting Rossi's sworn statements to the Court about how it was made.

If what you say is really how they view it then perhaps it is an example of the Rossi Uncertainty Effect. Thus: when any technical detail of Rossi's claims seems on the face of it like a bare-faced lie the possibility of technical uncertainty can be invoked to explain this away. Rossi contributes massively to this by providing incomplete and contradictory information anyway. However, in this case we have the hard evidence of Trial depositions which cannot easily be got round.