Prominent Gamma/L 0232 Flow Rate Test

  • Hi Stephen,


    Engineer48's idea (based on information he said he got from Rossi) was that a master pump pressurized the water in the reservoir feeding the Big Frankies so as to put a 2.5 metre head of pressure on it. The reservoir sits on the floor of the red E-Cat shipping container. A white insulated pipe emerges from it and runs along the floor to the area with the Prominent pumps. You can see this white insulated pipe running along the right hand side of the Big Frankies setup at floor level in most photos, for instance in the photo in post #381 on this thread. That pipe is then connected to a series of 4 short parallel insulated pipes that turn 90 degrees and run along the floor in front of the Prominent pumps. If you look at this part of the rig in photos you can see a series of yellow shutoff valves just where each of the short pipe sections makes their 90 degree turns.


    So water from the reservoir comes along and fills the short insulated sections of piping lying on the floor of the setup underneath the Prominent pumps. This water then travels up in plastic tubing to the pumps themselves and then from there into the Big Frankies, just as "friend of Rossi's" has diagrammed in post #240 on this thread. Engineer48's contention was that not only did water travel the route I have just described, but that there was also a parallel route in which water carried on from the short section on the floor underneath the Promeinent pumps and flowed directly into the uninsulated vertical pipe standing to the left of the setup. Because Engineer48 thinks there is a head of pressure on the water he believed that the water entering the vertical pipe would climb up it and then enter the Big Frankies directly. In fact he contended that that this accounted for a large part of the water entering the system and that the Prominent pumps were just for "topping up". The problem with this scheme (other than the lack of a head of pressure on the water) is that the short section of pipe lying on the floor underneath the Prominent pumps does not connect to long vertical pipe at all. You can see this clearly in the photo in post #381. I think that vertical pipe is a drain, which is why it is the only uninsulated pipe you see on the rig.


    As far as I can see the only way that water is supposed to enter the Big Frankies is through the Prominent pumps. If there is a master pump somewhere then it would have to be pushing water through the Prominent pumps.

  • The key issue is this. IF there is a master pump separate from these then we have no idea what it pumps where, and the possibilities for recirculation of hot water (the flow of which costs nothing in terms of energy input) are good.


    Rossi, whether innocently or not, is clearly very capable of putting a system together which has incorrect plumbing and recirculates hot water, so everything is on the table.


    There are 2 issues really ...


    1) Is the flow that Rossi claims even possible?

    2) What was the real flow


    Number 2) is pretty undefined. Here is a suggesttion. I think that at the bottom of the "steam riser" for the Big Frankies section of the plant is a valve that is supposedly for purging the riser of condensate that might collect there (there has to be something like that in the system). Open the valve and the riser purges into the condensate line returning from the JMP side. I think Smith spotted this and realized that you could use this valve to allow water to be driven backwards from the condensate return pipe right up into the riser. A "master pump' (the Grundfos) would be needed for this.

  • THHuxleynew . I don't think its not being considered it's just that we don't have the information. What evidence there is or not was discussed a lot a while ago.


    There are many big gaps in the so far published Wong disposition. And having read more recent more complete dispositions of others I can see how easy it is to miss represent or miss understand what is actually known and discussed when only reading the earlier released partial dispositions.


    Andrea Rossi's more complete disposition in Witness statement does fill in some gaps but does not explain everything about the exchanger.


    As far as the equipment itself is concerned AR does mention having some kind of evidence (receipts or something) for the purchase of the pipes, fans and that his accountant should have them and if I recall he said he could request them for IH lawyers if they wanted. If that data exists and fits the time frame then it would be difficult to discount them. We never saw the missing middle photo of inside the Customer plant. But it existed and is discussed in the dispositions... so in general there is a lot we can only guess at as far as the equipment is concerned.


    Regarding the thermal engineering I guess many curious minds have read your thread here but don't really have anything to add. You have considered a model which I think you considered carefully given what we know but it also based on some guess work or estimates of the engineering used based on supplied data to some extent.


    I'm not a thermal engineer so could not discuss expertly how to model such a system unfortunately but I do sometimes work with thermal engineers and I know it is sometimes very complex and hard to model correctly.


    That said a simpler high level model can give us insights so I appreciate the effort. I just suppose we need to know more about the design itself to better understand it.


    It does seem to me he is using the fans more like an industrial blower than a more general fan use though Especially if E48 suggested ducted design fits.


    There are those on ECW like my self who think it was most likely there. There are also those who think not. But all agree we personally have not seen enough data to prove it one way or another. And all agree we do not personally know enough about the engineering actually used in the heat exchanger to prove if it could have worked as specified or not. I suspect that the IH lawyers did see enough though.

  • I am at a bit of a loss here, on this whole pump story.


    1) Why in the world would anyone (even Rossi) use 24 pumps that the clear manufacturer's parameters state where not close to the standard capacity needed for the 1MW plant. People here are attempting to "figure" out how they can "make it work"! Simply ask Rossi for the specifics! Plumbing has nothing to do with secret "IP"! If I were a Rossi believer, I would be extremely frustrated, even mad, that he does not put this to rest! (Of course my opinion is that he cannot, so he does not)


    2) It does not matter if this test shows the pumps cannot produce the volume needed. Already, Rossi has "covered his a$$" by now stating there was some type of recirculating pump involved. So the faithful will simply state "no problem with these pumps, Rossi added other capacity by other pumps". Even though there is no evidence of such things. As with all his fabrications, Rossi could simply provide a complete diagram of the plumbing, it would reveal NO IP. However this will not happen. As provable facts come to light, Rossi simply "re-engineers" the plant. The same thing happened with the heat exchanger. In 2016 excess heat went out a roof vent. Then his own expert stated that heat would be a major problem, so he had to come up with the heat exchanger story! Now a recirculating pump!


    3) If the test shows the pump is capable of producing 70L/HR, it does not really matter. Again, WHY would anyone use a pump so far out of spec. , both in heat of fluid and volume of the pump? Why would anyone use a metering pump (specifically designed to deliver X amount of fluid) and then run it for a year at double it's designed capacity AND at a much HIGHER temperature than rated! You will not convince many skeptics with this logic either.


    People need to face this question. Rossi released the Penon report. It has the 1MW plant data. Heat generated, electricity used, flow rates, etc. etc. The plumbing schematic would reveal NO INFORMATION not already available! Why does Rossi not support his position by producing a plant schematic? Why does he not produce a schematic for the heat exchanger? Look at how much credibility it would gain him! It would require no effort to do this. OR does he NOT have a schematic. He built the entire 1MW plant from ideas in his head and from memory? Did he do all the flow calculations in his head? Is there no construction plans for the invention of the century? Really people! He does not release a schematic because once done, he cannot "retro invent" non-existing recirculating pumps to cover discovered inadequacies!


    The same could be stated of IHFB's infamous pipe size or "missing window pane". It does not matter as people are going to believe what they want to believe. Rossi could prove it with a photo, but he does not! Same about the heat exchanger. A simple photo, but hmmmm, none exists? Did he design all this in his head with no drawings? How did the day laborer's build this amazing piece of equipment without drawings? Surely Rossi calculated out how much heat the system could dissipate! But he has NO evidence of the pipe size, the missing window, the heat exchanger, now the pump capacity? Come on!


    If I were a Rossi supporter, I would be SO pissed off at him. He continually lies to you! He stated on his blog TO THE SUPPORTERS, that he had a new partner, new customers and this was proven a lie in depositions. He had NO reason to lie to you, other than he wants adulation. He COULD answer his loyal supporters questions on the heat exchanger, pipe sizes, plumbing schematics etc, etc. etc, etc. but he does NOT! He leaves you to dream up defenses for him as he does not defend himself!


    I ask you supporters this.... start asking ROSSI for answers! There is no IP involved here! Simply ask him honest and open questions about pipe sizes, heat exchangers, why he used so vastly undersized pumps.

    Ask for schematics and plans! It will answer these many questions! Ask him to HELP YOU defend his reputation!


    Of course you will not ask him as you know deep down that he will simply delete any such questions and not answer them or state "this info is under NDA", his most famous fall back! Why do people defend him to the "nth" degree but do not ask HIM to simply provide the facts that will exonerate him!


    You know deep down that you cannot pursue this avenue because you already know the outcome..... ?(

  • There are no doubt people in the world of a temperament to enjoy being the cause of this kind of runaround. If we take a pessimistic view of things, impatience with such a continually and retroactively revised description of things might also serve as an implicit criterion for sending away those who would not be tractable business partners.

  • 1) Why in the world would anyone (even Rossi) use 24 pumps that the clear manufacturer's parameters state where not close to the standard capacity needed for the 1MW plant. People here are attempting to "figure" out how they can "make it work"! Simply ask Rossi for the specifics! Plumbing has nothing to do with secret "IP"! If I were a Rossi believer, I would be extremely frustrated, even mad, that he does not put this to rest! (Of course my opinion is that he cannot, so he does not)


    An explanation someone attempted to bring out quite some time ago was that the exact flow of liquid/water going into those E-Cats is part of what Rossi considers IP and crucial to make that specific implementation properly work; so following this he could have had reasons to hide and/or misrepresent the data. Might also in part explain why he decided to use so many relatively expensive smaller pumps, at least when purchased new (24x ~1500$? A costly exercise just to build something that was never intended to work, but that could have been the point, arguably).

  • 1) Why in the world would anyone (even Rossi) use 24 pumps that the clear manufacturer's parameters state where not close to the standard capacity needed for the 1MW plant.


    There is an answer. The Doral plant actually contains not just the Big Frankies but also about 50 small ecat reactors. Most of these small reactors have their own Prominent pump as can be seen form photos of the inside of the plant. So the original plan was to have something like 60 pumps going (this number is actually listed somewhere in Penon's reports but I can't find it right now). With this number of pumps at work there should would be no problem achieving 36,000 L/day ... each pump would only have to deliver something like 25 L/H.


    But the original scheme went wrong somehow. There were leaks and constant electrical shorts. So much so that 2 weeks after the plant was started up (but before Penon's official test period began), all of the smaller units with their pumps were shut down permanently. This left only the 24 pumps on the Big Frankies in operation. Rossi still wanted 1 MW productions, however, and so those few pumps were supposed to carry the entire load.


    It is not clear to me whether or not the shutdown of the smaller ecats was really due to functional problems. It turns out that all of the fuel charges in the smaller E-Cat units were manufactured and put in place by IH at a time when Rossi was not around (this was in N Carolina). In contrast, the fuel charges in the Big Frankies were 100% Rossi-controlled. Rossi may have been worried that IH had placed a few "control" charges full of dummy fuel into some of the small E-Cats and so shut them all down.


  • Steven: I find it difficult to understand how ECW can rationalise this one. There is more precise info about the heat exchanger than anything else, and the thermal design is basic. Essentially, to make any such work you need much more power for the fans than is possible.


    How could it have had much larger surface are from vanes? In that case Rossi would have had to deliberately leave these out when telling Wong - so making his expert witness evidence false in a way that disadvantages his case! that is weird even for Rossi.

    Similarly for any other change that improved efficiency. Also adding these vanes would be a big job contradicting Rossi's sworn statements to the Court about how it was made.


    If what you say is really how they view it then perhaps it is an example of the Rossi Uncertainty Effect. Thus: when any technical detail of Rossi's claims seems on the face of it like a bare-faced lie the possibility of technical uncertainty can be invoked to explain this away. Rossi contributes massively to this by providing incomplete and contradictory information anyway. However, in this case we have the hard evidence of Trial depositions which cannot easily be got round.

  • On the pump photos : the "mystery close up" is a crop from the one with Rossi standing by. That row is all set to "40% stroke", and they are not running.

    The one I couldn't see the dials on was a different photo.

    The "resampled" attachment (as discussed above) is clear ... you can read all of the stroke length knobs (a couple are set to 50% : Prominent were too cute with the design of the knob .. it's hard to tell at a glance which the active end is) and read some of the stroke rates. (kinda sorta ... ).

    But without knowing when they were taken we don't know their relevance. Maybe there's EXIF data in the originals, but we're probably at about the 100'th copy now.


    On the single fatcats : my recollection is that RossiSedtm they were there as backups, could deliver the 1MW without any Tiger/Big Frankies, and would only be activated as needed.


    On the moving target : yeah ... if my results don't reach 75 l/h another invisible pump or pipe or something will magically manifest itself.

  • On the single fatcats : my recollection is that RossiSedtm they were there as backups, and would only be activated as needed.


    By "fatcats" you mean the small E-Cat units in the non-Big Frankies part of the Doral plant?


    There are 2 pieces of evidence that these were not intended as backups.


    1) Penon's reports outline the makeup of the powerplant. He specifies 115 power units.


    2) The small E-Cats were fully operational and generating power in the first 2 weeks of the life of the Doral plant. In document 207-55 (first 14 pages) we see entries in a daily log (Fabiani's) of several aspects of the Doral plant operation. There are twice-daily values for the amount of energy absorbed by the plant and subsequent calculations of power absorption. There are also occasional comments, in Italian, on significant events happening within the plant.


    - The log begins on Feb 1 2015 and records how, over 2 weeks, various groups of the small E-Cats were brought online and gradually fed more and more power.

    - On Feb 17-18 the Big Frankies were brought online. This doubled the energy absorption of the plant. [Penon is visiting the plant from the Feb 16-18 so this is the configuration of the plant that he sees ... one with both the smaller E-Cats and the Big Frankies all operating]

    - On the morning of Feb 19, my Italian-to-English converter says that the following was recorded "Hydraulic leaks in the single piece modules".

    - On the evening of Feb 19 we see the comment (translated from Italian) "Off 6 groups of single modules". On that day the energy absorption of the plant dropped by 50% to around 10 Kw. The small E-Cats are now off and according to Barry West, have their circuitry removed. [Penon left the plant on the 18th so he is not on hand to see this]

    - On Feb 23 Penon records the first data point for his report [which are actually not his readings at all but ones sent to him by Rossi from plant that is now profoundly altered from the one he saw].


  • The photo with Rossi standing beside the Big Frankies is definitely early on. Multiple people describe what a problem rust was in the lines and you don't see a hint of it here. Look at the bundle of plastic tube tied together with a zip-tie at the lower right. That is brand new tubing. And none of the pumps are powered as you pointed out. So this must have been before Feb 1 2015, before any water every travelled through the system. I submit that the settings on the pumps at that time are irrelevant to their actual operating configurations.


    For more relevant settings I would look at pictures showing rusty water in the lines.

  • Alan Fletcher


    One last thing about the pump settings. Here, from document 215-3 on page 291 is what Joe Murray said about them after visiting the Doral plant and seeing it working on (Feb 16, 2016)...


    " ... we took pictures of the pump configuration when the plant was still operational on the 16th, and what we saw was that the pumps were in a fixed, almost maximal rate. And, in fact, we also saw that some of the pumps had sediment and, and biofouling in some of the lines, indicating that there's no flow in those.· So those pumps were disabled."


    The pumps that were disable seem to the ones for the bottom Big Frankie (BF4) which seems to have been offline for most of the time from Sept 2015 to Feb 2016.

  • There is no way by design that such kind of precision solenoid metering pumps can double or triple their maximum dose, even when using other than athmospheric pressure in the pipes. So any reports or claims far away from the max. 32l/h is nonsense.

    There are three problems with your statements. The first being that Alan F. has already shown in a Prominent manual that the type of pump at issue can pump several times their "maximum" rate. The second being that Alan F.'s own tests have shown that the same kind of pump can have a rate as high as > 43 l/h, and we are just getting started with the various configurations. And finally, Rossi's pump isn't a piston pump. Perhaps we all ought to withhold our conclusive statements until we finish some more actual testing.

  • An explanation someone attempted to bring out quite some time ago was that the exact flow of liquid/water going into those E-Cats is part of what Rossi considers IP and crucial to make that specific implementation properly work; so following this he could have had reasons to hide and/or misrepresent the data. Might also in part explain why he decided to use so many relatively expensive smaller pumps, at least when purchased new (24x ~1500$? A costly exercise just to build something that was never intended to work, but that could have been the point, arguably).


    "reasons to hide and/or misrepresesnt the data" ???? Rossi was paid $10 Million dollars for the complete IP! He had a year to back out of the contract if he did not like the deal. He did not. So now people say he was "hiding" the IP? He then later sued for $89 Million dollars stating that IH did not pay. But this was a year after the test had started, so why would he be "hiding / mispresenting" data by using pumps that were not sized properly? Unless he planned subterfuge well in advance of the Doral event starting????? In either case, if he was hiding IP or misrepresenting data, he was then fraudulently trying to collect $89 Million dollars!!


    Penon's data clearly states the flow rate. Divide it by (4) and you have the flow of each unit. There is no hiding it. If the data is false, then Rossi faked the test and did not deserve the $89 million. If he hid the IP from IH, he does not deserve the $10 million! There is no getting around this!!


    In regards to Bruce_H's replyl... Rossi is wanting $89 MILLION dollars. Is he going to risk the invention of the century by running some pumps at 150% of the rated capacity, at far above the rated temperature???

    So a major piece broke down, so he proceeds with hap-hazard abandon and "hopes" the pumps will produce the needed 36,000 L per day as needed? That the diaphrams do not melt at the high temps? That the 150% duty cycle does not seize the armatures? Is this really reasonable?


    But even more so.... he still could produce the schematic of the plumbing or of the heat exchanger. He does not do so, even to his loyal followers.

  • So a major piece broke down, so he proceeds with hap-hazard abandon and "hopes" the pumps will produce the needed 36,000 L per day as needed? That the diaphrams do not melt at the high temps? That the 150% duty cycle does not seize the armatures? Is this really reasonable?


    Not at all. I think he faked the whole thing. This is just his cover story. It's a brazen one!


    Does he think people will buy it? He thinks they might. So he has gone ahead and tried it out. If it doesn't work then he just thinks ... "Hey. These schmoes didn't buy that one ... let's see if they'll go for this". .

  • I told you that you would be back. ;)

  • can


    "An explanation someone attempted to bring out quite some time ago was that the exact flow of liquid/water going into those E-Cats is part of what Rossi considers IP" ...



    "Preferably, the nickel has been treated to increase its porosity, for example by heating the nickel powder to for times and temperatures selected to superheat any water present in micro-cavities that are inherently in each particle of nickel powder. The resulting steam pressure causes explosions that create larger cavities, as well as additional smaller nickel particles."

  • Ahlfors

    On LENR-Forum there has been a recurring suggestion that Rossi's stethoscope was to listen to the harmonics generated by the heating coil(s) and that apparently there's an optimal load-matched input frequency where noise would be the highest. This wouldn't answer the pump mystery, though. Any comment?

  • The pump itself is very noisy. Try accessing one of the videos that Alan Fletcher has posted on this thread (for instance in post 366). Listen to the noise and multiply by 24. Not just that but the noise you hear is from mechanical solenoid pistons being thrown back and forth with a duty cycle repeating at 3 Hz. These would set up mechanical shocks that would be sent through the rack that the Big Frankies are sitting in. I'd be surprised if Mr Rossi could hear anything that was subtle.

  • I told you that you would be back. ;)


    Kind of another one of your misleading posts!


    My actual post :

    "Well... the court case is over. I rarely post anymore and will probably soon only visit the site occasionally. Hopefully to keep up to date on Bob Higgins actual and real endeavors! Rossi is a fraud and not worth the time…"


    Unfortunately, I see no updates on Mr. HIggin's REAL research, just more of the same old, same old..... A few loyal followers trying to dream up defenses for Rossi when he does not defend himself.


    Now that the court case is over and we know there are no NDAs in place, how about you asking Rossi to provide some plumbing schematics or photos on the plant or heat exchanger. This would answer soooooo many questions! Like, steam trap placement, flow meter and thermometer placement, PIPE SIZES, heat exchanger, missing window panes, pump settings, "newly discovered recirculating pump", endothermic process that used 40% of the heat.... etc. etc. etc. None of this would reveal ANY IP and would add so much credibility!


    Surely, you being one of Rossi's top loyalist, he will oblige and provide the evidence to support your loyalty. Why would he not? Surely he will now provide his own defense so that his supporters will be vindicated and awarded as such. No more would the supporters have to go through such extreme contortions to try and think up solutions to these problems... Rossi can simply answer them himself!


    What do you think! :thumbup:

  • Bob ,


    Answers to many of your questions can be found in the litigation record. I know, it isn't easy to sift through it all, but much of it is there for the curious.


    I'm glad that you are back to frequently visiting and posting. It just isn't quite the same here without you around.

  • An explanation someone attempted to bring out quite some time ago was that the exact flow of liquid/water going into those E-Cats is part of what Rossi considers IP and crucial to make that specific implementation properly work;

    It may be that way. From the interview Rossi released to Mats Lewan we can read this:

    A ‘circulator’ (positioned in connection to the heat exchanger) was used to stabilize the flow of steam and water through the whole system. Rossi wouldn’t comment on further data of the circulator since he said he was preparing a patent for this device.

    (https://animpossibleinvention.…-was-rossis-top-priority/)

  • It is not clear to me whether or not the shutdown of the smaller ecats was really due to functional problems. It turns out that all of the fuel charges in the smaller E-Cat units were manufactured and put in place by IH at a time when Rossi was not around (this was in N Carolina). In contrast, the fuel charges in the Big Frankies were 100% Rossi-controlled. Rossi may have been worried that IH had placed a few "control" charges full of dummy fuel into some of the small E-Cats and so shut them all down.

    Perhaps really IH didn't properly load those reactors, which didn't work for that very reason. Darden couldn't put the correct fuel even when he gave the reactor to Boeing to test it. IH was not even able to do such a basic thing ..... but then they continued to argue that if they could not do functional reactors was because Rossi hadn't given them the right information. The hypothesis that they were incapable seems to me much more plausible.

  • SSC: "Perhaps really IH didn't properly load those reactors, which didn't work for that very reason."


    Don't you think think this was their intention when paying 11 Mio$ to get the proper loading information from Rossi? They failed and so are failing others who try to replicate Rossi's claims...maybe his reactor and his ECTA techology never worked, indeed....