Prominent Gamma/L 0232 Flow Rate Test

Updating Alan Fletcher's results to Aug 10. "Post #" is the number of the post (this thread) that contains the raw data. All runs have a small negative pressure at the inlet, i.e., water is drawn up into the pump by suction

I am also including a visualization of the data. The straight line is decorative only. I expect the relationship to be revealed as curved when more data come in.

@BH,

Thanks for putting these results into table and graph format--very useful. Just wondering why you are excluding the result with the small head pressure?

Quote from IH Fanboy

Just wondering why you are excluding the result with the small head pressure?

Only one data point so far. I assume Alan Fletcher will be conducting several runs with positive inlet pressure.

Quote from Alan Fletcher

Could you please digitize the Gamma L curve (0.5 bar to 2 bar) for reference. (In the gamma L manual ... fig 45 or thereabouts).

And be ready to show both my "raw" curve (as here) and a "scaled" curve (to bring my 0.5 bar result equal to theirs).

Good idea! I'll get it ready to go.

Quote from Alan Fletcher

Are you JUST accounting for the discharge height/bars ... or the "backpressure" (discharge-suction) ?

I am NOT accounting for anything going on at the inlet right now. All pressures in the table and in the plot are at the discharge of the pump.

Edit: If you want to take inlet pressure into account then just mentally slide the data points and the straight line in the plot horizontally to the right by 0.05 bar.

And it begins... the raising of Fletcher Tower.

I predict 36.5 L/h

Update including run 20C (arrow) and reference values from Prominent manual (red).

So based on this single data point (of course, more needed), our prominent pump is running at ~80% the flow rate that would be expected.

Okay, now I might make a few people mad, but bear with me as it's a simple conjecture at this point: Using a correction factor of 1.2 (i.e., 80% of expected flow rate), then at a slight 4in. head inlet pressure, one might expect to see ~56+ l/h (47 * 1.2), which would be ~90% of what Penon measured.

Not sure who posted the original with the yellow lines added, but I think they are either mistaken or purposely misleading. In light of Alan F.'s findings so far, I decided to inspect this image more closely. I believe the correct flow is shown in blue. If right, this means that the pumps have at least inches in head inlet pressure and in some cases multiple feet.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Not sure who posted the original with the yellow lines added, but I think they are either mistaken or purposely misleading. In light of Alan F.'s findings so far, I decided to inspect this image more closely. I believe the correct flow is shown in blue. If right, this means that the pumps have at least inches in head inlet pressure and in some cases multiple feet.

The image and its yellow lines comes from someone who is an tireless defender of Rossi and who says that he has in the past discussed some of this with Rossi directly.

The small blue arrows you have drawn in are wrong way around. The water for the Big Frankies comes from the internal reservoir sitting on the floor of the E-Cat plant. It makes its way to the pumps in the insulated piping you see running along beside the units on the floor to the right. The incoming water then turns 90 degrees and enters the white insulated pipe you see right at the foot of the Big Frankies. The plastic tubing you have spotted connects to this pipe and others like it that lie just behind it. The water rises up the tubing and into the pumps which means that your small blue arrows should be turned around.

So the flow pattern shown in yellow is correct (although the bottom yellow arrow is a bit misleading and should be shown as going into one of the Big Frankie tanks). The horizontal yellow lines in the image are at the level of the meniscus for the two middle Big Frankies. The meniscus shows the water level in the Big Frankie container and that water level is manifestly at the outlet of the pumps. So, net, there is 0 bar backpressure on the pumps.

The person who originally posted the image believes that the internal reservoir inside the E-Cat plant has a head of pressure on it. I view this as unlikely because this contradicts the descriptions of Penon, Barry West, and Rick Smith who have all viewed the system directly. But if the reservoir has a head of pressure on it then this would be transferred to the pump inlets.

Quote

The small blue arrows you have drawn in are wrong way around. The water for the Big Frankies comes from the internal reservoir sitting on the floor of the E-Cat plant.

Yes, I stand corrected on that point. My inlet lines were going the wrong direction, which means my assumption about head pressure due to gravity is also incorrect. Corrected image embedded here. But I still think the flow shown in yellow is wrong, because it makes it look like the pumps are just re-circulating water, which is not what is happening (as can be seen by the upper most rack of pumps, which clearly shows the pumped water entering the BF box behind the pumps. So, we are back to the question of whether there was a head of pressure from the reservoir to the inlets of the pumps.

Does anyone recall whether we have access to a picture showing the height of the return condensate reservoir tank relative to the height of the pumps?

Okay, here is a hint from Barry:

207-61, pp. 88-89

A. Yeah, well, everything that came back as

23 condensate needed a vessel to flow into, and that was

24 done away with altogether. Everything came back into a

25 smaller tank that was inside the unit, and the larger

Page 89

1 tank, which originally was going to be condensate

2 return tank, and then we were going to pump the water

3 back into the units. That ended up being -- we built a

4 big stand a little taller than this table, really heavy

5 duty stand out of wood to support that large tank full

6 of water, which this thing held, I forget how many

7 gallons, 55-gallon drums, it probably held 6, 800

8 gallons or more, maybe a thousand gallons of water,

9 which is substantially heavy. But it had to be up so

10 gravity could allow it to flow into the system.

11 So Dave Perry come down one time to check

12 us out and then help with the design or that stand, if

13 you will, and then we just attached a rubber hose into

14 the water fill inside and allowed gravity to feed it.

15 This was based on Andrea.

So it sounds like the head of pressure to the pump inlets was due to gravity.

IH Fanboy

The bottom yellow arrow in the image is a bit misleading. I think the person who drew it is trying to show exactly what you are showing with the corresponding arrow you have drawn near the top of the setup.

In fact you both have it just slightly wrong. What really happens is that after coming out of the pumps the water heads up, to the left, and then down, just as you have it, but then it heads directly backwards (away from the viewer) for a short stretch and connects to the bottom of the sight glass. At that point it turns right and enters its Big Frankie.

People keep bringing up this idea that the internal reservoir for the E-Cat plant is sealed and has a head of pressure on it. But in this case I don't understand how the external reservoir sitting outside the E-Cat plant, feeds the internal reservoir by gravity as described by Penon and Barry West.

Quote from IH Fanboy

So it sounds like the head of pressure to the pump inlets was due to gravity.

No. That head of pressure is tiny. The external tank West is describing is the one you can see sitting in its wooden cradle outside the red E-Cat shipping container in the photo I have attached. It is max 3 feet or so above the floor of the shipping container. No higher than the internal reservoir actually. The water surface in both tanks is supposed to be the same as far as I can figure out.