Prominent Gamma/L 0232 Flow Rate Test




  • So it sounds like the head of pressure to the pump inlets was due to gravity.


    Since both the internal tank and the outside tank are much lower then the higher rows of Prominents, just gravity alone can not feed the Prominents.

    If we had just gravity, those higher Prominents would have had a negative inlet pressure

    The Prominents can maybe overcome this negative pressure by the sucking action as they increase their internal volume during the inlet stroke but I find this an unlikely scenario.


    @IH Fanboy


    People keep bringing up this idea that the internal reservoir for the E-Cat plant is sealed and has a head of pressure on it. But in this case I don't understand how the external reservoir sitting outside the E-Cat plant, feeds the internal reservoir by gravity as described by Penon and Barry West.


    In case the internal tanks have a pressure on it, then that pressure can feed the Prominents with a positive inlet pressure while at the same time due to the hight difference between the external tank and the external tank can feed the internal one. The water pressure is possibly provided by the additional pump on the JM side which AR describes in his notes about the Smith report.

  • In case the internal tanks have a pressure on it, then that pressure can feed the Prominents with a positive inlet pressure while at the same time due to the hight difference between the external tank and the external tank can feed the internal one. The water pressure is possibly provided by the additional pump on the JM side which AR describes in his notes about the Smith report.


    There isn't really a height difference between the internal and external reservoirs. Not much of one anyway. Don't forget that the floor of the E-Cat plant is 3 feet of the ground.


    The external reservoir is there so that water can be added to the E-Cat system during startup and to replace water lost through leaks. If there was a head of pressure equal to at least the height of the topmost Big Frankie on the internal reservoir, then water would flow backwards from it to the external reservoir and come spurting out.

  • Does anyone recall whether we have access to a picture showing the height of the return condensate reservoir tank relative to the height of the pumps?


    Here (left) is a picture looking down the inside of the E-Cat plant from the east end (i.e., from the end that does not contain the Big Frankies). You can see the internal reservoir (arrow) sitting on the floor with the back end of the Big Frankies rack looming above it.


    The area of the internal reservoir is shown in a blown up (right) so you can see detail. The reservoir is a white insulated box with a black pipe running in to it on a bit of an angle. That is the pipe coming from the external reservoir sitting outside the south side of the shipping container.


  • That may well be so IHFB.


    But have you worked out the significance? If so, then the temperature readings for the main tank (70C) are irrelevant. Hot near boiling water can be circulated round and through the e-cats, meaning that unless there is a phase change the power required is minimal.


    As I'm sure you know there is no evidence for a phase change, and Rossi has a past history of claiming phase change when in fact none (or only 1%) of this exists.

  • Alan Fletcher


    Alan - Do you see obvious reason why the pump is under performing? Could there be deposits inside the liquid end from this pump's previous life?


    There are maintenance steps in the Prominent manual that you might consider at some point. Not now though I think.

    No. They offer a repair kit (both valves and diaphragm) -- never did get a quote from Prominent/California.

  • Alan Fletcher


    Is this the repair kit you had in mind? It has order number 1023124 and the following specifications ...


    "Spare Parts Kits for Solenoid-Driven Metering Pump Beta® a and gamma/ L

    Spare parts kits for Beta® a und gamma/ L, consisting of:

    • 1 diaphragm
    • 1 suction valve assembly
    • 1 discharge valve assembly
    • 2 valve balls
    • 1 connector kit"

    If you and IH Fanboy would like, I can look into ordering this at my expense and and having it shipped to you.

  • Yes ... BUT in my latest full-height run (timed from my TIMER) I got a discrepancy between actual strokes and expected strokes (at 180/minute).


    20C ALSO has a time/pulse discrepancy .... best to flag those results as "Preliminary".

    Avidemux is reporting (I think) different frame rates for different runs, so for now I'm going to use my $1-timer as the master clock! Timing is MM:SS:FF where FF is frames from when the timer changed. (Have to change my spreadsheet from count-up to count-down).

    I'm going to have to set a camera for the WHOLE run and see if/when Gamma is dropping strokes. (And right now my biggest problem is reflections off the screens and the contrast between the GPS and timer screens).

    Running out of time for today ....


    Edit : I'm going off to get ready for my 3pm gotta-go. I need ONE MORE plumbing part! (L-connector for manometer).


    So .... don't expect any more results today.

  • This statement from Barry is confusing to me:


    "Everything came back into a smaller tank that was inside the unit, and the larger tank, which originally was going to be condensate return tank, and then we were going to pump the water back into the units."


    Looking at the photos re-posted by BL (thanks by the way), it looks to me like the external tank is situated higher than the internal tank, but the angle of the photographs makes it pretty hard to determine exactly how much higher. Barry suggested that the condensate water returns back into the smaller tank and the larger tank. But some here are guessing that the larger tank was only used to start the system up or to replace water that might have leaked. So which is it?

  • I'm sure you know that there is evidence for a phase change: the state inspector testified that there was steam leaking from one of the pipes.


    No: you get steam leaking if there is some steam (which there will be with any excess heat beyond that needed to deal with heat losses in the piping). That proves absolutely nothing, it is expected.

  • If we are to use Penon's report as more authoritative than Barry, then perhaps Barry misspoke, or the court reporter maybe messed up his sentence. It doesn't really make sense to be directing the condensate to both the internal and the external tanks, so Penon's schematic seems more believable than Barry's statement. Hence, I think we can probably rule out gravity providing a head of pressure to the BFs given that the internal tank is at the foot of the stack of BF units.


    The question remains whether a recirculator pump provides such inlet pressure. Dewey recently alluded to a round of emails between Rossi and Bass near the start of the test regarding the recirculator pump. Dewey suggested that the recirculator pump belongs in the same category as the heat exchanger. However, given that there are any emails at all discussing such a recirculator pump at the beginning (at least according to Dewey) suggests to me that it was a serious consideration, and probably put in place.

  • After a coupla false starts .... I have a full-tower-height run, where everything matches (camera and timer, stroke counts). I checked the stroke counts every minute : correct within 2 frames per minute.


    Off to hardware store, radio, poetry ... and perseids. Will try to get a full series tomorrow.

    21E


    Discharge : 196.25 in 0.49 bar Suction -27 in -0.07 bar = backpressure 0.56 bar

    Flow : 32.89 l/hr

    pgl_run21E_16-RESULTS.jpg



  • The question remains whether a recirculator pump provides such inlet pressure. Dewey recently alluded to a round of emails between Rossi and Bass near the start of the test regarding the recirculator pump. Dewey suggested that the recirculator pump belongs in the same category as the heat exchanger. However, given that there are any emails at all discussing such a recirculator pump at the beginning (at least according to Dewey) suggests to me that it was a serious consideration, and probably put in place.


    From the interview of Mats Lewan with Rossi :


    Rossi explained a couple of things with regard to the heat exchanger.

    1. A ‘circulator’ (positioned in connection to the heat exchanger) was used to stabilize the flow of steam and water through the whole system. Rossi wouldn’t comment on further data of the circulator since he said he was preparing a patent for this device.
    2. This circulator had nothing to do with a pump of the model ‘Grundfos’ that was brought up by the defense’s expert witness Rick Smith who suggested that the Grundfos pump was used to make hot water flow through the system and that no steam was produced. The real use for the Grundfos pump was instead to push the water through a by-pass with a filter about once a week to make it cleaner.

    So at the heat exchanger there was a pump for circulating the flow through the system

    In a comment from "engineer48" to Bruce on ECW he stated that Rossi had told him :


    Engineer48 Bruce__H • a year ago

    Hi Bruce,

    Rossi told me there are 2 parallel condensate circulating system.
    One which delivers 85% of the volume to ALL reactors and then for each reactor, separate topping up pumps that provide the other 15% and slightly vary their flow to maintain the desired water level in each reactor


    If those topping pumps where the Prominents, it means that they where on an average only providing 15% of the total flow. Well within the normal specs of the Prominents.


    Besides that Rossi also stated (As a part of Point 15 in his comments on the Smith report)


    There was not only the pump system to push the water but also the recirculator (I guess he meant the circulator at the heat exchanger)





  • @IH Fanboy LDM


    It is at this very point that we traverse from hard evidence, photographs, plans, and measurements to things that are unseen and perhaps unseeable. Although I understand the attraction of arguing over these phantoms, maybe it is more suitable to do so elsewhere. I suggest that it is more in the spirit of this particular thread to talk only of things that are tangible and can be measured or seen.

  • @IH Fanboy LDM


    It is at this very point that we traverse from hard evidence, photographs, plans, and measurements to things that are unseen and perhaps unseeable. Although I understand the attraction of arguing over these phantoms, maybe it is more suitable to do so elsewhere. I suggest that it is more in the spirit of this particular thread to talk only of things that are tangible and can be measured.


    What you call "Hard evidence" has on this forum and elsewhere been interpreted in many different ways. So That evidence seems not to be so hard as you suggest but is only hard for those people who have fixed their opinion. That I brought up those quotes is that maybe, indeed through evidence, we can confirm or reject what is stated.

    As such I believe that it is suitable to do it in this thread, because we are trying to solve things related to the Prominents in this thread.

  • @BH,


    I see no problem with LDM tying the deposition evidence, Mat's interview, E48's statements, etc., into a coherent post about the recirculator pump as it might relate to the prominent pumps. Even Dewey has said that there are emails between Rossi and Bass at the beginning discussing the recirculator pump. The purpose of this thread is to test the prominent, yes, but nothing happens in a vacuum (edit: except for a bunch of quantum weirdness). The discussion about what is on the public record relating to the pumps involved at Doral provide context to the tests that Alan F. is performing.