The wonderful physics of heat exchangers

    Quote from Alan Smith

    AR (who I have never met and spoken briefly to just once) and I happen to have many mutual friends, people I have known since before they knew Rossi. Those people he is supposed to have traduced and betrayed. Funnily enough, they are still his friends, and I am still theirs. I think that is enough explanation for now.


    As for IH, I have little to say about them beyond the fact that they are venture capitalists, with all that descriptions entails, good and bad. Not really my kind of people.


    I don't think many of us think Rossi traduces and betrays people (except IH and if you believe his e-mail Hydrofusion). Merely, he inspires them with the very attractive idea that his devices work. Just as, for example, Levi probably still believes the Lugano measurements indicate at least COP=2 and therefore disruptive technology.


    There is a good reason why hearsay is not allowed in legal evidence!

    Quote from Bob

    So again my question quite simple.... why do you believe Rossi and support him?


    @Bob: You completely miss the point: We do not believe AR, as he always did hide some crucial part of the evidence. But believing the truth of money hungry, blind investors is outlandish, as such people would sell anything for the sake of their success.


    We also believe that most of the people in LENR-forum, that seem acting like "IH-trolls" in reality do not fight against AR. They only try to downplay the importance of Nixyz-H LENR. We know that Ni..-H LENR works, there is more than enough knowledge to declare it a truth. I want just remind you, that in the early 90ies the US military research run their famous solid-state simulation code and concluded, that the Pd-D environment and the Ni-H environment both have the same potential for the LENR reaction.


    Thus: Nobody will stop us to further develop and refine Nixyz-H LENR.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    AR (who I have never met and spoken briefly to just once) and I happen to have many mutual friends, people I have known since before they knew Rossi. Those people he is supposed to have traduced and betrayed. Funnily enough, they are still his friends, and I am still theirs. I think that is enough explanation for now.


    As for IH, I have little to say about them beyond the fact that they are venture capitalists, with all that descriptions entails, good and bad. Not really my kind of people.

    Thank you and fair enough.


    The only disagreement I have with your logic is that of the prejudice on VC's. While it is likely true, that some VC's are as you describe, I certainly do not believe all are or probably even the majority. Just as many of my "ultra liberal" friends insist on telling me that "ALL large corporations are inherently evil and are out to take every penny I have" is not true either. It is somewhat amusing that they tell me this, while

    they are enamored with Apple and Google. Two of the largest and most controlling companies in the world!


    In my home state of Indiana, the Lily Corp and it's subsidiary, the Lily Foundation, do a huge amount of good. Scholarships, grants and many philanthropic endeavors. Much more than Rossi will ever do with his promise to the kids in Africa. Yet because Lily is a pharmaceutical, to many they are automatically vile, evil capitalist that should be shut down immediately. Even Bill Gates is giving billions (yes with a B) to philanthropic ventures. Damn them evil capitalists! :cursing:


    I have many family and friends who supported Obama with sincere belief. I have just as many family and friends who strongly support Trump! So much for relying on family and friends logic and influence!

    When it comes to the controversial, one HAS to look at facts and data. Friends do not equal fact. (I am not saying that they are not part of the equation, but a friends opinion simply does not outweigh mathematical certainty!)


    Thanks again for the response. :thumbup:

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    Bob: You completely miss the point: We do not believe AR,


    Perhaps you misunderstand me. I am not against LENR at all. I very much want it to be real and commercialized, regardless of what form it comes in. My position is that Rossi has nothing and is not to be believed or trusted. While he may have once brought attention to the LENR field, he is now tarnishing that field to a high degree. I once was very optimistic about the eCat and Rossi's story. However, he has completely removed any confidence I ever had in him. Not others, he, himself.


    So, I stand on record as stating that I want LENR to be real. I believe there is sufficient evidence stating that there is a real anomaly of excess heat. However, not only is it not well understood, but certainly not close to any commercial product yet. I do not believe Rossi, (again by his own actions) has anything of import.

    Politics is a divisive topic in these circles — you would be quite surprised how many people there are that are firmly for whoever the other political party or politician is. It is a subject that attracts the worst kind of participation, so best to avoid alluding to it, lest it acquire a life of its own.

    Quote

    I want just remind you, that in the early 90ies the US military research run their famous solid-state simulation code and concluded, that the Pd-D environment and the Ni-H environment both have the same potential for the LENR reaction.

    Anyone have a link for that?


    @Bob

    Quote

    Much more than Rossi will ever do with his promise to the kids in Africa.

    Ah! You are, understandably, confusing one crook for another. Steorn promised the infamous "African pumps" that would provide fresh water for the children and villagers. http://www.moletrap.co.uk/wiki/index.php/African_Pump Rossi promised millions or billions for "children with cancer" -- I don't recall that he said where. Pretend philanthropism is another hallmark of free energy scammers. Real philanthropists give quietly, without fanfare, and do not promise uncounted chickens before they hatch.

    Quote from Bruce__H

    I'll try to attract some attention for your calculations on ECW.


    In the meantime I'm working through your spreadsheet. I don't understand the mass velocity, G. Dimensionally, it seems to have units of a mass flux [Kg/m^2*s] rather than a mass velocity. And can you explain how this comes into the formula for deltaP and the rationale for that?


    Hi Bruce,


    just as a matter of interest, how do the ECW people deal with this?


    You don't really need these calculations - just to note that heat exchangers have limited efficiency and to dissipate 1MW you need too much power going to the fans. But, I have quantified this precisely - Rossi's (claimed on oath) heat exchanger is not a very efficient one running about 90% efficiency when cranking it up to the air velocity needed for even 500kW dissipated (at which power dissipated you need very big fans!)


    Interestingly whatever you do you can't get it up to 1MW! The fan power is dissipated and added to the power you are trying to dissipate, and so it can never actually dissipate 1MW, before you get to this increasing wind velocity more increases the fan power more than is dissipated by the better cooling. This is also because at high powers the air exit temperature (dependent on flow rate not velocity) gets up to close to 100C and then of course the heat exchanger is less efficient...


    The issue with saying: oh well, the plant probably only produced 500kW is that you need then to explain which bit of the Penon data or assumptions is wrong. There are not obvious errors, unless something is badly wrong with that data or test setup. But in that case it could be badly wrong so much that the device does not work at all. (Of course there are obvious candidates for things badly wrong with the test setup - though which candidate is correct is not obvious).


    THH

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Hi Bruce,


    just as a matter of interest, how do the ECW people deal with this?


    Hi THH,


    Basically, they deal with it by ignoring it. I have had only 2 responses that even attempt to address the content of your argument. One of them proposes unrealistic alternate modes of heat dissipation such as spraying the pipes in the heat exchanger with water. The other does not understand your spreadsheet and requests some better explanations or notations on it.


    On ECW I set out 3 basic problems with the operation of a 1 MW plant at Doral. I proposed that any one of them knocks Rossi's account on the head and asked for comments. One of the points was yours about the heat exchangers. Another was the inadequacy of the pumps to account for 36,000 L per day. And the third was the incredibly stable temperature and pressure readings during a 24 hour power interruption that Rick Smith noted in Fabiani's data. A couple of people replied but none of the usual suspects engaged at all. They have all moved on to the next foolishness.


    https://disqus.com/home/discus…e_cat/#comment-3441348062

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    THH - is a fair question to ask if you can estimate the decibel level that would have been coming out of that joint under the best

    available cooling conditions. I think its somewhere between a leaf blower and a small Jet-A turbine.


    Always happy to oblige when my google fu is strong:


    LN = 10 + 50 log (v) + 10 log (A)


    (SI units and decibels)


    v = 20m/s


    A = 0.7 m^2


    10+50*1.3 - 10*0.15 = 73dB


    Not too bad - about like a vacuum cleaner. That is for my benchmark 500kW - since it the heat exchanger design cannot do 1MW! It is for straight ducting so the pipes it blows over, and the corners made by the baffles, will increase this - but I don't have easy info about how much.


    Rossi I think claimed that the fans still existed - in which case inspection of them can easily show what power they will deliver (it will not be 25kW).

    THH - beauty and thank you - so I guess we will need to assume that the vacuum cleaner(s) vernacular reflects the "household breed" and not the "shopvac breed" from your reference.


    The next question is around power consumption - wouldn't the FPL records clearly show this kind of power consumption or do you think there was a secret electron scavenger feeding up one of the pump plugs supplying harmonic electricity to this big bad mofo mirage of a cooler?

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    THH - beauty and thank you - so I guess we will need to assume that the vacuum cleaner(s) vernacular reflects the "household breed" and not the "shopvac breed" from your reference.


    The next question is around power consumption - wouldn't the FPL records clearly show this kind of power consumption or do you think there was a secret electron scavenger feeding up one of the pump plugs supplying harmonic electricity to this big bad mofo mirage of a cooler?


    The power consumption issue is what makes this beast 100% impossible to dissipate even 500kW.


    Unless Rossi had some other electricity source (e.g. PV cells on the roof - I can hear the helpful ECW readers noting this as I say it) there is no room in the difference between FPL and e-cat comsumption data for any large fan. In fact 50kW is several times larger than the total FPL power draw ignoring the e-cats. Taking the e-cats into account there is no room even for 5kW from additional fans.

    Maybe there was a ganged batch of pre-QX (little que'ies) units on the JM side pumping copious amounts of electrical power for the Cat 1 fans up the ladder with the post SpongeRSquareHead effluent. There has to be an explanation for the null IR scan imagery. (which, by the way, could not be certified for inclusion into evidence) Such is life.

    Quote from maryyugo

    Rossi promised millions or billions for "children with cancer" -- I don't recall that he said where. Pretend philanthropism is another hallmark of free energy scammers.

    What do you know about that? Do you keep an eye on Rossi's bank account? Rossi expressed a desire to make a donation to those who need it. It is a generous and noble thought. If he has already done so or if he will do it, only himself can know it, so all of your criticisms are futile, as always. Darden in his interviews launched messages as a real environmentalist and filled his mouth of beautiful words, but in the meantime his companies were getting funds to clean-up areas, putting buildings above those places and only after have been found that the remediation has never been done .... only when people started to get sick. Did you spend a few minutes reading what Sifferkol reported? Or do you only interest in the color of the socks Rossi has weared this morning? Your paladin spirit is not shocked in front of things like these? I guess in this case you turn your face on the other side not to look .... obviously in this case you don't have any interest in commenting...

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    In fact 50kW is several times larger than the total FPL power draw ignoring the e-cats.


    THHuxleynew : This is a fall-back to FUD level. Just one example the Ochsner heatpump vent is rated about 200 watt for 30kW. Thus you need about 1kW for the dissipation of 150kW.


    What we all agree: If AR produced between 2-400kW, it is still a lot of power needed to vent the critical surplus of 1-200kW...

    • Official Post

    Q. And your testimony is it's that second set of second story windows that was used?

    A. Yes, it is correct.


    Q. And the fan was ‐‐ the fans were pulling

    air in through the bottom of that window and then the

    air was being pushed out through the top of the window?

    A. No.


    Q. Where were the fans?

    A. No, the fans were put at the opposite

    side of box, pulling air inside the box, to allow the

    air exit from the windows.


    Q. I see. So the fans were ‐‐ the fans were

    not in the windows, the fans were on the other side

    of the box?

    A. Correct.


    Q. So was the door ‐‐ the door into that

    second story, was that always kept open?

    A. Sorry, now I am not understanding your

    English.


    Q. How was new air getting into the room? I

    am trying to understand.

    A. The room was not tight. The room had

    this door open and ‐‐


    Q. That's what I was asking. That's what I

    was trying to understand.

    A. The room had this door open. The local

    was open. We had vents also in the factory. We

    had ‐‐


    Q. You have answered my ‐‐ that's what I was

    trying to understand. I think my question was was

    the door open or closed. The door was normally open

    so that air could come in also from like the

    warehouse ‐‐

    A. Yes.


    Q. ‐‐ for the circulation?

    A. Yes.


    Q. Because the one window that is ‐‐ that

    you are testifying has been removed, the glass was

    removed so that the air could go ‐‐

    A. The glasses was removed.

    This is one of the reasons why R proposed settlement moments before testimony was to start. He was going to be flambéed on the stand

    with this tale. Another fryer awaited him around the photos from his iphone 5 from inside the "customer" radiator.

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Another fryer awaited him around the photos from his iphone 5 from inside the "customer" radiator.


    Are you referring to the 3rd photo? The one that goes between the two that appear in Smiths supplemental report? I think that when asked in deposition, Rossi couldn't locate his fabled bypass in that photo.


    And what is with this lunatic story (of Rossi's) that it was the Florida radiation inspector's companions that took the photos and that Murray then smuggled them over to Rossi's lawyers? I mean what is the point if he has to agree that the pictures show the actual situation in there after all?

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    THHuxleynew : This is a fall-back to FUD level. Just one example the Ochsner heatpump vent is rated about 200 watt for 30kW. Thus you need about 1kW for the dissipation of 150kW.


    What we all agree: If AR produced between 2-400kW, it is still a low of power needed to vent the critical surplus of 1-200kW...


    W - while I'll agree that ventilation can be purely passive - it is pushing heat the way it wants to go anyway - Rossi's heat exchanger design, or anything like it, must use a lot of power, as I've shown.


    That is fact, not FUD.

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