Agree here with Max. Be very cautious, the "horsepower" there is quite evidently weighted toward public relations, business law, cryptocurrency and blockchain IP, only one player is really claiming to bring physics to their team, that is Sergey Tsvetkov. So evaluate his record to see what is likely to come about. I wish them well, if they are really about doing something with LENR. So far it looks like a big "hook" and little else of merit. Admittedly I have not studied Tsvetkov's work, although I have read something of him. I would welcome some exposition of Tsvetkov's earlier or ongoing efforts.
Caveat Emptor (investors beware)
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They are in a garage of a house.
I agree this is not encouraging. But in and of itself, it is not determinative. A personal example: I have a friend who helped to start what was Invitrogen ( NASDAQ: IVGN ) and they started in a garage. Then they moved to a small rented space little larger than a garage. They went on to grow further with the purchase of similar companies and rivals. Eventually, they became Life Technologies with mergers worth $6.7 billion. That's billion with a B. Thermo Fisher bought Life Technologies in 2014 for $13.6 billion. All started in a garage.
Unfortunately, the founders were ruthless and somewhat unpleasant (my assessment) and they forced out my friend before she could get really rich. But that's another story and actually, she did OK.
So less likely to succeed but not totally ruled out... yet.
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It's very clear that many many of the current giants of technology started in garages. Of course many many many failures and frauds also started in garages. It is not the sole defining characteristic of a technology success, but is a frequent concomitant. And certainly not a necessity.
So, IMHO, garage is not a defining issue either way.
interesting story of Invitrogen. I used their products extensively during the era (early 1990s) when they were a stand alone entity, probably right through the time that they were "acquired" by Life Technologies, and a bit before Thermo Fisher vacuumed them and many others up, (early 2000s).
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@Shane D If you prefer the old way - researcher by night, enterpreneur by day that is fine.
I don't see what is worng if everybody on the tema does what they can do best and not a little bit of everything.
Max,
No, of course not. Garage start ups are fine by me. As others pointed out, many great companies have started out that way. Although Paradigmnoia had a good point, and you a very funny, clever response.
My post was intended to point out that this could be a legitimate business venture...albeit, more geared at the moment towards research. With all the glitz on their website, and *busy* video however, potential investors may be led to believe there will soon be a working product. From what I read, and looking at the patent they reference, their sudden appearance, and your checklist, I can confidently say they are no where near market. Not even close.
A couple other things to keep in mind for investors if tempted: Estonia is in the EU. They are heavily regulated like any western county. Even were Deneum near commercialization, the certification process would be long, arduous, and expensive. Rothwell has mentioned just some of the regulatory hurdles Rossi would have to overcome here in the US, and the same would apply to Deneum.Another, is that the possible return is limited. I may be wrong, but it looks to me that if they ever build a producing power plant (long, long way's off at best), the lucky investor gets up to 100% return. That is not much ROI, for the amount of risk, and long time frame involved IMO.
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Shane D. I also think the potential reward of 100 maybe 500 per cent is not worth the risk.
I am buying the argument that they avoided any equity linked ico due to risk being charged by the regulator. In case of a commodity this ICO acts pretty much as a Kickstarter - you are buying future product.
In any way we should treat their ico is a way to donate money not to invest, things get easier once you look at it this way.
I guess everyone here wants to see commercialized lenr so we should use every even remote opportunity to advance it.
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Max,
ICO=Kickstarter? Good analogy Max.
BTW, there is nothing wrong with wanting to invest in a "commercialized LENR" as you say. Unfortunately, as of yet, there is nothing close to that happening anywhere. Not only from the scientific aspect, but possibly even more importantly, from the regulatory perspective. Anyone who commits their money at this point, is only doing so for research.
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Paradigmnoia I will add to my scam checklist:
- open concept lab, to scam occasional passerby
Don’t forget also: Image of people in lab coats, with at least one person wearing one like a cape.
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Hold on, please. There are surely great differences. ICOs allow anonymity and non-traceability at various stages in the process. Kickstarter has inherent accountability. The difference is profound from the standpoint of potential fraud. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency flotations are "not going to end well" to quote Warren Buffet. With cryptocurrencies you are investing far more in the currency itself, rather than in the claimed target entrepreneurial development.
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Buffet admits he doesn’t have a clue about Bitcoin:
Quote from Warren Buffet on cryptocurrencies“nobody understands exactly what bitcoin is” 🤪
“Why would I take a long or short position in something I don’t understand”
Yet somehow (probably hubris) he also makes definite pronouncements about the whole asset class. (Sound familiar SOT?)
How anyone could define a rise in value from 0.001c to $7000 as anything other than a roaring success is beyond me... It suggests Buffet is well past it - which is a shame, as he’s clearly a great human being.
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How anyone could define a rise in value from 0.001c to $7000 as anything other than a roaring success is beyond me...
Ponzi schemes seem to offer similar "benefits". They rise. For a while. Leaving lots of investors in the dust. The originators, of course, get very rich.
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That’s because you can’t short (or hedge) a Ponzi scheme.
Anyway, isn’t the transfer of wealth from the dumb to the bright basically the definition of a meritocracy?
Caveat emptor, suckers.
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https://help.kickstarter.com/h…ect-is-unable-to-fulfill-
Kickstarter does not issue refunds. Transactions are between backers and creators directly.
To request a refund for a pledge, please contact the project creator.
Now how is this different from ICO except that you don't have to pay Kickstarter commission?
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Max Nozin wrote: Now how is this different from ICO except that you don't have to pay Kickstarter commission?
With crypto-funding a donor likely has no recourse at all since the transaction is anonymized. It's a perfect storm for direct siphoning of the funds into pockets unintended by the donor. Any questions about fraudulent expenditure of the funds are completely unenforceable.... no traceable path, no jurisdiction, no enforcement of implicit or explicit contracts.
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That’s because you can’t short (or hedge) a Ponzi scheme.
Other than to wisely avoid participating.
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OK, go ahead, jump on in! You surely know of "tulip mania". Today the same forces can create immense apparent value out of literally nothing but an attractively-framed meme... propagated through, or planted in, the minds of an unwary segment of the public.
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Ponzi schemes seem to offer similar "benefits". They rise. For a while. Leaving lots of investors in the dust.
TBH, you make a reasonable point, however I’d argue most investments suffer from similar problems. Human nature and market cycles don’t mix well:
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Btw read Mckubre interesting reply to Jed. Unclear derections lack of funds. That is why you need to run research as business with all that implies from haing very clear short terms targets to meet to a brutal dirty sales/fundraising force. Yes those chubby guys in suits who sell snow to escimo like em or not
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Other than to wisely avoid participating.
Investments are for the Buffets of this world. Don’t mind riding out recessions with your 401k? Be my guest... But I’d say that’s the real drain of wealth.
Over the medium term bitcoin offers many advantages. Try getting access to the order book and API’s of the NYSE for free, and even if you pay thousands yearly for the privilege, you’re still a second class citizen compared to the big institutions/HF traders.
Will bitcoin replace the dollar? Doubtful. Can you make a pile from the crazy volatility of crypto? Definitely. Fact is, it’s easier, as there’s no need to get bogged down with earnings reports and macroeconomics. Herd behaviour is far easier to monitor/predict.
