Mizuno's bucket of water

  • Kirkshanahan

    " It is hopeless trying to change his mind"

    "unless someone besides Zeus, bocijn, and"

    Question .

    So you don't like questions??


    Apart from your new aspersion of Mizuno siphoning water like petrol

    which is an underhand way of saying that Mizuno lied

    What are your explanations of the calculation of 114Megajoules of xs heat from100 g of Palladium?







  • Kirkshanahan


    "Mizuno's 2017 data is unreliable, thus his conclusions and paper are unreliable"


    Justify why your statement is not unreliable.


    "the bucket data is inconclusive because critical data is unknown"


    Specify which critical data is unknown please

  • Nah. What we need is for him to repeat that exact run properly or to make his current kilowatt (net output) reactor work.

    That has nothing to do with the previous experiment. You said that he might have been mistaken or fooled in the previous experiment. You think that is possible to fool someone into thinking that 20 kg metal object is 100 deg C when it is room temperature. Okay, explain how. You said "unknown circumstances" could have fooled Mizuno. What sort of circumstances could do that? Either tell us, or stop pretending you know, and stop making impossible claims.


    When properly observed.

    Mizuno is a proper observer. I have never seen anyone demand that experimental science be "observed" by "proper" people. Only that it be independently replicated. If you have a few hundred thousand dollars burning a hole in your pocket and you wish to see Mizuno's experiment replicated, I can probably arrange that.


    Real phenomena can be shown with reasonable reliability.

    Like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and supernovas? You can make one happen any time you like?


    I am joking


    Real experiments get better results with time.

    Only when they are funded and repeated. The heat after death experiment with the large cathode was never repeated. Mizuno thought it was dangerous, and he did not have the money to do it. However, many other heat after death experiments were done by Fleischmann and Pons. They were much better funded, and the results were much clearer. They were repeated 16 at a time, hundreds of times, and they nearly always worked. So, you have what you ask for: real experiments, better results over time. Both boil off and steady state.


    The problem in your case is that you refuse to look at these experiments and when you do look, you claim that boil-off calorimetry and isoperibolic calorimetry do not work. If F&P had also used Seebeck, flow and ice calorimetry, you would claim these methods don't work either. They observed reactions lasting for 3 hour with only 6 s of fuel, but you say that's not long enough. They observed ~100 W at times. You claim that is not enough. If they had measured 1000 W or 10,000 W, you would say that is not enough. It is never good enough, hot enough, or long enough for you. You will move the goalposts as far as you need to, to any absurd length, to deny that these results are valid.


    No result, no matter how definitive, no matter where it is published or how many times it is repeated will ever convince you or even make you think twice and consider the possibility that you are wrong. You will not believe this until Nature magazine and the rest of the establishment endorses it, and then you will say you believed it all along.

  • Exactly 4.0 mV and 100 C doesn't inspire me with confidence.

    You refer here to the text in Mizuno's book. I do not think he meant exactly 4.0 mW or exactly 100 deg C. It does say that in the Japanese text -- I just checked. I think this is more a journalistic style than a scientific paper. I don't recall what kind of thermocouple it is.


    Here is a scan of the original data up to the point where the cell was disconnected. You can see approximately how much variation there was in temperature. Electrolysis power was cut at around 750 h. You can see the heat after death starting up around 800 hours. The temperature rises, the D/Pd loading ratio continues to drop, pressure begins to rise again. The cell was disconnected where it cuts off abruptly at ~850 h. Temperature from 850 on was measured periodically with the voltmeter.


    Left Y-axis: Temp/deg C, D/Pd ratio; right axis: Pressure / atmospheres. Bottom: Time. (Meaning hours). Trace labels: Temperature, D/Pd Ratio, Pressure.




    Here is the cell. Pretty sure this is the one:



  • RobertBryant ,

    I did not say it was impossible. It is simply unusual for such nice round numbers to come up. I am naturally suspicious of nice even numbers in data. They probably are summarized numbers. But then, the other numbers are reported using more significant figures. So why not just give the real numbers for all the numbers? Or round the power off to one significant figure?


    Your version is even more unlikely to happen by accident. Of course, it could happen that the reaction did make some convenient round numbers. The universe is often playing jokes like that on us.

  • Paradigmnoia "It is simply unusual for such nice round numbers to come up"


    Are you suggesting Mizuno write 100.091??


    If I was writing I'd write 100..maybe you'd write K 370.825???


    For the scientific papers Mizuno has written there is more written accuracy..


    Here's just five years worth


    • T. Mizuno, K. Inoda, T. Akomoto, K. Azumi, M. Kitaichi, K. Kurokawa, T. Ohmori and M. Enyo: Formation of 197Pt Radioisotopes in Solid State Electrolyte Treated by High Temperature Electrolysis in D2 Gas, Infinite Energy,?Vol.1, No.4, 9-11(1995).

    T. Mizuno: Analysis of Elements for Solid State Electrolyte in Deuterium Atmosphere during Applied Electric Field, Proceedings of the Conference on Low Energy Nuclear Reaction, Published by Fusion Information Center, 122-132(1995).

    • Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadashi Akimoto, Kazuhisa Azumi, Masatoshi Kitaichi, Kazuya Kurokawa and Michio Enyo: Heat Evolution and Analysis of Elements for Soild State Electrolyte in Deuterium Atmosphere During Applied Electric Field, J. New Energy,?1(1):79-87(1996).

    Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori and Michio Enyo: Anomalous Isotopic Distribution in Palladium Cathode after Electrolysis, Infinite Energy,?38(7):1085-1091(1996).

    • Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohrmori and Micho Enyo: Isotopic Changes of the Reaction Products Induced by Canthodic Electrolysis in Pd, J. New Energy,?1(3):31-45(1996).

    Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadahiko Mizuno and Michio Enyo: Isotopic Distributions of Heavy Metal Elements Produced during the Light Water Electrolysis on Gold Electrode, J. New Energy,?1(3):90-99(1996).

    • Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadashi Akimoto, Kazuhisa Azumi, Masatoshi Kitaichi, Kazuya Kurokawa and Michio Enyo: Anomalous Heat Evolution from a Solid-State Electrolyte under Alternating Current in High-Temperature D2 Gas, Fusion Technology,?29(3):385-389(1996).

    Toshihiro Fukuda and Tadahiko Mizuno: The Evaluation of Pitting Corrosion from the Spectrum Slope of Noise Fluctuation on Iron and 304 Stainless Steel Electrodes, Corrosion Science,?38(7), 1085-1091(1996).

    • T. Ohmori, T. Mizuno, H. Minagawa and M. Enyo: Low Temperature Nuclear Transmutation forming Iron on/in Gold Electrode during Light Water Electrolysis, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy,?22(5), 459-463, 1997.

    T. Ohmori, M. Enyo, T. Mizuno, Y. Nodasaka and H. Minagawa: Transmutation in the Electrolysis of Light Water-Excess Energy and Iron Production in Gold Electrode, Fusion Technology,?31, 210-218, 1997.

    T. Mizuno, K. Inoda, T. Akimoto, K. Azumi, M. Kitaichi, K. Kurokawa, T. Ohmori and M. Enyo: Anomalous γ Peak Evolution from SrCe Solid State Electrolyte Charged in D2 Gas Int. J. Hydrogen Energy,?22(1), 23-25, 1997.

    • T. Ohmori and T. Mizuno: Strong excess energy evolution, new element production and electromagnetic wave and/or neutron emission in the light water electrolysis with a tungsten cathode, Proceedings of The 7th international conference on cold fusion, 279-284, 1998.

    T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori and T. Akimoto: Probability of neutron and heat emission from Pt electrode induced by discharge in the alkaline solution, Proceedings of The 7th international conference on cold fusion, 247-252, 1998.

    T. Ohmori, T. Mizuno, Y. Nodasaka and M. Enyo: Transmutation in A Gold-Light Water electrolysis System, Fusion Technology,?33, 367-382, 1998.

    T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori, T. Akimoto and Y. Aoki: Detection of radiation emission, heat generation and elements from a Pt electrode induced by electrolytic discharge in alkaline solutions, Proceedings of the Intersociety energy conversion engineering conference, 1868, 1998.

    T. Ohmori, T. Mizuno, K. Kurokawa and M. Enyo: Nuclear transmutation reaction occurring during the light water electrolysis on Pd Electrode, International Journal of the society of materials engineering for resources,?6(1), 35-44, 1998.

    T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori and M. Enyo: Confirmation of the Changes of Isotopic Distribution for the Elements on Palladium Cathode after Strong Electrolysis in D2O Solution, International Journal of the society of materials engineering for resources,?6(1), 45-59, 1998.

    • K. Azumi, T. Mizuno, T. Akimoto and T. Ohmori: Light emission from Pt during high-voltage cathodic polarization, J, Electrochemical Society,?146(9), 3374-3377, 1999.

    T. Mizuno, T. Akimoto and T. Ohmori: Neutron and heat generation induced by electric discharge, J. New Energy,?3(1), 33-45, 1999.

    • A. G. Lipson, B. F. Lyakhov, A. S. Roussetski, T. Akimoto, T. Mizuno, N. Asami, R. Shimada, S. Miyashita and A. Takahashi: Evidence for Low-Intensity D-D Reaction as a Result of Exothermic Deuterium, Desorption from Au/Pd/PdO:D Heterostructure, Fusion Technology,?38?(2), 238-252, 2000.

    T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori, T. Akimoto, A. Takahashi: Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid, Jpn. J. Appl. Phys.,?39(10), 6055-6061, 2000.

    T. Ohmori and T. Mizuno: Nuclear-transmutation reaction caused by the light water electrolysis on Tungsten cathode under an incandescent condition, J. New Energy,?4(4), 66-78, 2000.

    A. G. Lipson, B. F. Lyakhov, A. S. Roussetski, T. Akimoto, T. Mizuno, N. Asami, R. Shimada, S. Miyashita and A. Takahashi, Evidence for Low-Intensity D-D Reaction as a Result of Exothermic Deuterium Desorption from Au/Pd/PdO:D Heterostructure, Fusion Technology,?38(2), 238-252, 2000.

  • What I see when I see a measured 4 mV turned into a thermocouple T is that the range could just be somewhere between these two images below.

    This is because there is one reported measurement value (in this book segment above) with one significant figure, and the rest are calculated values (or probably read off a chart in this case for the thermocouple voltage).

  • Quote

    The heat after death experiment with the large cathode was never repeated. Mizuno thought it was dangerous,

    I thought about this and concluded that Mizuno was being irresponsible. It seems he had no idea ahead that this continuation of heating after power was off would happen. And when it did, how would he know how much heat it would make? And then he puts it in water in a PLASTIC bucket? What if it really heated up, boiled off the water, melted the bucket and started a fire.?


    Responsible would be to take it to an open field far from people and either take it apart carefully with shields and gloves (best option) or to at least put it in a metal bucket perhaps on a metal or a ceramic surface. It was an unexplained reaction, presumably nuclear, and of unknown potential. I am constantly struck by how those who claim the power of LENR seem to disregard that with high power comes high risk. Some prepare, notably, IIRC, McKubre. But others obviously don't.


    So I hope when Alan Smith goes to witness the Rossi DPS, he will not stand in the first row! Get behind a column and peer around cautiously lest Rossi pull a Papp stunt.

  • Paradigmnoia "Of course, it could happen that the reaction did make some convenient round numbers"


    Here's a clue " I filled a large bucket with water and partially submerged the cell in it:"


    Here's another clue... Anders Celsius would have measured the temperature as another round number..


    What equilibrium temperature would you expect 5 litres of water with a 70 w lightbulb partially submerged in it to reach?

    • Official Post

    This may look ugly to some, but I have come to see it as science. Yes, there is politics, passion, petty squabbling, insults, strong disagreements, taking sides, legal threats, but usually in the end they are forced to come together after forming a consensus. Then they bury the hatchet by going to the local pub and getting drunk together.


    Now gentlemen, carry on. And let the truth will out!

    • Official Post

    Bocijin,


    I never said I do not take sides! I actually do believe in the bucket boil off story. That is because I trust Mizuno. Very honorable man, in a culture that worships honor, and Godzilla. :)


    Now, that does not mean his science is above reproach, or criticism. That is where the ugly part of science, and KS/THH, comes in. Like sausage making, maybe not best for us to see how it is made, but the end result tastes very good.

  • This is because there is one reported measurement value (in this book segment above) with one significant figure,

    Honestly, that was a little sloppy of him. In the book the unit is spelled out "millivolts" (in Japanese). It is not at all like a scientific paper where you would write mV. The book is also written in ordinary Japanese vertical right-to-left text, which is not used for technical writing. Scientific and technical papers are horizontal left-to-right.


    I wouldn't read much into this. He means approximately ~4 mV. (Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing a tilde ~ in vertical Japanese text.)

  • And then he puts it in water in a PLASTIC bucket? What if it really heated up, boiled off the water, melted the bucket and started a fire.?

    That would not have happened. He thought carefully about where to leave it to prevent injury in case it exploded.


    Even if the bucket had melted I doubt it would burn, and even if it did, it was on a concrete floor behind a large piece of metal. The building was full of dangerous, heavy duty equipment, acetylene torches, shielded barrels of radioisopes and other hazards. It was built to withstand fires and explosions. It was a lab facility, not a wooden house that might burn down from a small fire. I don't recall but I am sure it had alarms, and I know it had a 24-hour campus police guard desk in the entrance lobby, ID checks, and so on.


    To get to the underground lab next door where he did neutron detection, you have put on badges, radiation detection badges, and then go through a series of stairways and doors including two doors that are 1 meter thick made of lead, mounted on railroad tracks. The floor has chamber under it with a meter of purified water in it. It is dark and creepy. It looks like a James Bond Villain headquarters. Or the opening sequence in "Get Smart."


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    Responsible would be to take it to an open field far from people and either take it apart carefully with shields and gloves (best option)

    There are not many open fields far from people in the middle of Sapporo. I am pretty sure a locked, guarded facility designed to contain nuclear research experiments and radiation was a lot safer! The place had shields, steel plates, gloves, glove boxes and radiation detectors galore.