Wendelstein 7-X generates and contains 25 seconds of High Temperature plasma using only passive cooling
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Germans are known for overengineering.
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Once someone named "LENR Is Not Real" posts that Wendelstein generates 25 second of plasma using "only passive cooling", then one doesn't need to be a lone genius for to realize, we are facing the troll of hot fusion lobby. The Wendelstein is optimized to sustainable plasma design - but the sad truth is, it cannot achieve even ten times lower plasma temperatures than the tokamaks, which are working in pulse regimes (and which are still not able to ignite the hot fusion reaction).
The Wendelstein constructors must try their stuffs much harder. One just must ask, how much the German governement is willing to spend into hot fusion research while ignoring the replications of thousands-time cheaper cold fusion experiments. Which invisible power drives this apparent controversy?
? W7x has recently achieved plasma temperatures of ~40 to 50 million C +. These temperatures are fairly close to the temperatures of recent tokamaks and not a factor of 10 lower.
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Too bad they forget to inform the public about their results...;-) I'd say instead, they spend these dollars just for controlling and stopping the cold fusion proliferation. But the hot fusion research is billions dollars industry already. Just the NIF project did cost ten billions of dollars already and it drains anther billion each year - enough to attract much bigger frauds, than Andrea Rossi would even think about. The ITER is forty billions dollars project and so on.. If we would spend the same money for cold fusion research, then we all would have cold fusion reactors in our cars and kitchen already.
plasma electron temperatures reached 100 MK, while ion temperatures reached 10 MK
Do you think I'm stupid and lazy enough not to verify it? You need hot ions for fusion, not electrons.
W7x had a goal of 100M C for ion temperature for this phase, I believe. I earlier posted an article where they said they were up to around 40million C. I'll repost it when I find it.
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Too bad they forget to inform the public about their results...;-) I'd say instead, they spend these dollars just for controlling and stopping the cold fusion proliferation. But the hot fusion research is billions dollars industry already. Just the NIF project did cost ten billions of dollars already and it drains anther billion each year - enough to attract much bigger frauds, than Andrea Rossi would even think about. The ITER is forty billions dollars project and so on.. If we would spend the same money for cold fusion research, then we all would have cold fusion reactors in our cars and kitchen already.
plasma electron temperatures reached 100 MK, while ion temperatures reached 10 MK
Do you think I'm stupid and lazy enough not to verify it? You need hot ions for fusion, not electrons.
The results you quoted are from Feb 2016 during the previous test phase and not the latest phase, by the way.
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"When do the first fusion power plants go into operation?
We are doing precautionary research for the second half of the century. If you do not plant trees today, there will be no forest in 50 years"
Very expensive trees! 50 years too...phew. At least BLP and BEC are always two years away from market.
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I'd have no problem with cost of hot fusion research, if only the validation of cold fusion research wouldn't take a fraction of this cost. Once we aren't still doing it, then one question arises: who is responsible for it? We shouldn't keep quiet about how research grant money is really spent. Why a Lot of Important Research Is Not Being Done. Research perversions are spreading. What we witness here is a failure of science to self-correct. Science is broken, at least by any useful definition of the word. Self-correction doesn’t always happen, and science journalists mustn’t be afraid to spell that out.
This article therefore concludes:
"Don’t let scientists decide for themselves what research is interesting, but force them to solve problems defined by others. In the future, the most valuable science institutions […] will link research agendas to the quest for improved solutions — often technological ones — rather than to understanding for its own sake. The science they produce will be of higher quality, because it will have to be.”
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I'd have no problem with cost of hot fusion research, if only the validation of cold fusion research wouldn't take a fraction of this cost. Once we aren't still doing it, then one question arises: who is responsible for it? We shouldn't keep quiet about how research grant money is really spent. Why a Lot of Important Research Is Not Being Done. Research perversions are spreading. What we witness here is a failure of science to self-correct. Science is broken, at least by any useful definition of the word. Self-correction doesn’t always happen, and science journalists mustn’t be afraid to spell that out.
This article therefore concludes:
"Don’t let scientists decide for themselves what research is interesting, but force them to solve problems defined by others. In the future, the most valuable science institutions […] will link research agendas to the quest for improved solutions — often technological ones — rather than to understanding for its own sake. The science they produce will be of higher quality, because it will have to be.”
$100's of millions of current dollars have been spent to verify CF/LENR over the past 29 years. As soon as these claims move out from under the people who started them, and into an environment where the most expensive and accurate measurement equipment is used, they fall apart. Do you seriously think, given the problems we have with climate change, that CF/LENR would not be used if it could be proven to work in a rigorous test environment?
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Once someone named "LENR Is Not Real" posts that Wendelstein generates 25 second of plasma using "only passive cooling", then one doesn't need to be a lone genius for to realize, we are facing the troll of hot fusion lobby. The Wendelstein is optimized to sustainable plasma design - but the sad truth is, it cannot achieve even ten times lower plasma temperatures than the tokamaks, which are working in pulse regimes (and which are still not able to ignite the hot fusion reaction).
The Wendelstein constructors must try their stuffs much harder. One just must ask, how much the German governement is willing to spend into hot fusion research while ignoring the replications of thousands-time cheaper cold fusion experiments. Which invisible power drives this apparent controversy?
Here's the link where they say W7x is up to around 40Million C ion temperature:
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$100's of millions of current dollars have been spent to verify CF/LENR over the past 29 years
It could be easily way more - but it's still just one thousand of total cost of hot fusion research, which counts in billions instead of millions.
QuoteHere's the link where they say W7x is up to around 40Million C ion temperature:
Which ions? Positively or negatively charged ones? Anyway, the tokamaks reached 5.2 x 108°C temperature already
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"When do the first fusion power plants go into operation?
We are doing precautionary research for the second half of the century. If you do not plant trees today, there will be no forest in 50 years"
Anybody that understands a bit more than graduate physics, can see/understand that hot D/T fusion is a complete nonsense. Even if it will be possible to reach a positive COP, you will produce nothing else than continuous, neutron-bomb like radiation.
It is easy to moderate low energy neutrons, but a whole spectrum of low to high energy neutrons is not manageable without outraging costs.
LENR is just the clever way to fuse the right mixture of Hydrogen etc., with the additional payback of higher energy density and lack of pollution.
But what really worries the Lobby: LENR scales down and enables individuals to become more or less energy independent.
Thus the only people that are interested in ITER/Wendelstein etc. are the old, egg head military Chauvinists, that believe in spin-off weapon technology.
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Anybody that understands a bit more than graduate physics, can see/understand that hot D/T fusion is a complete nonsense. Even if it will be possible to reach a positive COP, you will produce nothing else than continuous, neutron-bomb like radiation.
It is easy to moderate low energy neutrons, but a whole spectrum of low to high energy neutrons is not manageable without outraging costs.
LENR is just the clever way to fuse the right mixture of Hydrogen etc., with the additional payback of higher energy density and lack of pollution.
But what really worries the Lobby: LENR scales down and enables individuals to become more or less energy independent.
Thus the only people that are interested in ITER/Wendelstein etc. are the old, egg head military Chauvinists, that believe in spin-off weapon technology.
True but there got to be something in hot fusion which makes scientist to love it. Why the team from whales didn't make 'lenr is within 10 years reach' announcement instead?
Also it kind of frustrated me that all hot fusion claims are based on new super materials claims. Those who can withstand neutrons. The materials like that do not exist but considered more real than say Stanley Mayers buggy.
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True but there got to be something in hot fusion which makes scientist to love it
Job, stable job for whole decades. Jeez, what else could it be? The bigger project, the more stable job it promises. And for supporting companies as well.
QuoteThus the only people that are interested in ITER/Wendelstein etc. are the old, egg head military Chauvinists, that believe in spin-off weapon technology.
Then they should be excited from LENR. ITER is useless from this perspective,
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Neutron blankets :Deuterium and tritium fusion generates neutrons. This varies by technique (NIF has a record of 3E14 neutrons per second[46] while a typical fusor produces 1E5–1E9 neutrons per second). It has been proposed to use these neutrons as a way to regenerate spent fission fuel [47] or as a way to breed tritium using a breeder blanket consisting of liquid lithium or, as in more recent reactor designs, a helium cooled pebble bed consisting of lithium bearing ceramic pebbles fabricated from materials such as Lithium titanate, lithium orthosilicate or mixtures of these phases.[48]
Direct conversion This is a method where the kinetic energy of a particle is converted into voltage.[49] It was first suggested by Richard F. Post in conjunction with magnetic mirrors, in the late sixties. It has also been suggested for Field-Reversed Configurations. The process takes the plasma, expands it, and converts a large fraction of the random energy of the fusion products into directed motion. The particles are then collected on electrodes at various large electrical potentials. This method has demonstrated an experimental efficiency of 48 percent.[50]
(Wikipedia)
Can someone explain why this won't work? It's pretty obvious that nobody "bothered" to figure out radioactive waste disposal for fission reactors when they were popular and constructed in numbers. And now we are awash in the extremely dangerous stuff that nobody wants to deal with Is something similar going on with hot fusion?
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OK, it’s « hot fusion ». But it is also the success of an outsider.
As perfect outsiders, we must consider this new as a good Christmas gift.
Happy holidays to everyone.
Fabrice.
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Once established commercial companies and reputable universities start to put their name on the line to report and stand by CF results, then I might change my tune.
The first Storms book includes a list of 180 national laboratories, university and corporate laboratories that published peer reviewed papers in mainstream journals with positive cold fusion results. None have retracted. There is no better way for them to "put their name on the line." This is how it is done in experimental science. So, what you are asking for was published 30 years ago. You refuse to look at it, but that does not make it go away.
No skeptic has ever shown an error in any of these papers. You have not even read them, so obviously you cannot point to an error. The only way to disprove a widely replicated experimental finding is to show an error in all of the replications.
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The first Storms book includes a list of 180 national laboratories, university and corporate laboratories that published peer reviewed papers in mainstream journals with positive cold fusion results. None have retracted. There is no better way for them to "put their name on the line." This is how it is done in experimental science. So, what you are asking for was published 30 years ago. You refuse to look at it, but that does not make it go away.
No skeptic has ever shown an error in any of these papers. You have not even read them, so obviously you cannot point to an error. The only way to disprove a widely replicated experimental finding is to show an error in all of the replications.
Sir, you keep mentioning these 180 or so experiments (some of which were done over 10 years ago) without addressing the most important issue: where is the followup? If these were so successful, why isn't this the main effort at all top universities and major research companies? Why weren't these efforts scaled up? Why has every company that has attempted to followup on these claims with expensive test equipment met with failure as far as I can tell? There is a huge disconnect between lab results and real world practical results here.
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Sir, you keep mentioning these 180 or so experiments (some of which were done over 10 years ago) without addressing the most important issue: where is the followup?
Perhaps you should be asking the bankers this question, They are the ones with the resources. They don't even invest in hot fusion, and never in fission reactors without all sorts of subsidies, both overt and covert. They are just not interested in 'blue-skies' research and development programmes.
Why has every company that has attempted to followup on these claims with expensive test equipment met with failure as far as I can tell?
Name them and we can discuss why.
