Mats Lewan: New Energy World Symposium,

Depends on what you want to feel happier about. You can swallow the Kool-Aid dispensed by the packaging industry and their chums, or you can do what I did and spent 2 years checking out what really happens. Then you will realise what the true situation is. Why do you think they are so cheap? It certainly isn't because they are 'a product in demand'. Don't swallow the slick PR campaigns, just check this out.

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/aluminium-can-scrap.html

Alibaba.com offers 1,348 aluminium can scrap products. About 100% of these are aluminum scrap. A wide variety of aluminium can scrap options are available to you, There are 1,352 aluminium can scrap suppliers, mainly located in Asia. The top supplying countries are United States, Philippines, and Thailand, which supply 33%, 19%, and 18% of aluminium can scrap respectively. Aluminium can scrap products are most popular in South Asia, Domestic Market, and North America. You can ensure product safety by selecting from certified suppliers, including 12 with ISO9001, 1 with Other certification.

ETA - and ask yourself why white aloxite from the Beyer Process sells for $600/tonne? It produces far less aluminium than re-smelting cans (because of the oxygen) yet is worth twice as much. Strange, eh?

Real nice Alan! Sounds like you and your friends are sitting on top of a gold mine. If the market agrees with you, at the end of your first day of operation you will have done more to save the planet than LENR has in 29 years. Just your presentation alone should make the conference worthwhile to attend.

Definitely a Science Digest newsworthy type thing. Do you guys intend to get this out there anytime soon?

Thank you Shane.

Nobody has done this trick before, unless they use micronised Al powder and some fairly expensive and nasty chemicals. On a bigger scale, reducing scrap cans to hydrogen and sodium aluminate with sodium hydroxide is trivial chemistry. But the sodium aluminate you end up with requires extensive and expensive post-processing to make it useable for almost anything. Doing it with nothing but hot water and recoverable catalyst is a game changer, since our pre and post-processing systems are easy and low energy. That's because 'there's no crap in there'. No lacquer dioxins and no sodium. No plant emissions at all and a COP of around 8.5 in terms of electrical energy in vs hydrogen energy out.

It has been 3+ years extensive study and experiment for me and a colleague, plus a number of 'informed people' with knowledge of all the various commercial strands, it has taken this long on the bench since can scrap requires extensive pre-processing and we have done a lot of work on both that and catalyst development. Currently we are involved in writing 'end-to-end' patents to satisfy our investors, who are currently forming what might be described as a 'short but impatient' line.

I think the full reveal will have to wait till June, by which time we should have the 5th generation plant up and running in the UK and sufficient patents in place. We keep building bigger and bigger systems, which has somewhat overtaken the LENR research and cost a lot of cash in relative terms. But on the topic of LENR, I think we should have something very surprising and easy to do to show in Stockholm too. Full reveal then- and I mean full description of every aspect, but right now we have de-bugging and system reliability tests to run. That's why my short posts are mostly getting shorter!

Quote from Nigel Appleton

Anything related to this? https://www.newscientist.com/a…on-demand-just-add-water/

Not even a kissing cousin. The devil is in the detail, nano-aluminium which they are using is a a very expensive product, probably $10k/tonne. especially when you add gallium (and possibly bismuth) to is as these guys must do. And when you have produced the very expensive hydrogen you have a difficult and expensive clean-up to do on the sludge, There are a few systems like this around, but with the hydrogen costing around $100/kilo they are only of interest to the military, who can just throw the crap over the nearest hedge, and need fuel 'at any cost'.

Alan Smith if you hypothetically convert all scrap cans collected globally into hydrogen will it be comparable by energy output to all global gasoline production?

Max Nozin Nowhere near. Ton for ton cans contain as much hydrogen energy as crude oil. And crude oil yields around 50% gasoline by weight. But they also displace another 1/2 ton or so of crude oil that would be used to mine, refine and ship the 2.5 tons of aloxite we can make from the cans. Don't get blindsided by the nearly free hydrogen - the very high-grade aloxite is the most valuable product the process produces

Hi Nigel.

Thank you for your kind words. At the moment we are ok for cash thank you. If it all works out as I hope then we can begin a very serious pro-bono research programme.

Quote from Alan Smith

But on the topic of LENR, I think we should have something very surprising and easy to do to show in Stockholm too. Full reveal then- and I mean full description of every aspect, but right now we have de-bugging and system reliability tests to run.

Alan,

Does this mean you will be showing clear proof of LENR using your LFH equipment?

Only if it works and continues to work reliably.

Good enough Alan. Will cross fingers.

DAK2 A good question that deserves a detailed answer.

The cost of running a smelter are much higher than the gas cost. The articles/research paper linked below gives you some idea of the range of both primary and secondary costs, which while smaller than the cost of gas alone are quite high. To turn this into 'real' figures see my calculations below. I have tried to be conservative on expenses and generous on sale value of recovered metal (more generous than you and a little better than current market prices) and transport costs. I base all my own calculations for input costs on the $400/tonne figure btw, and the 15% 'dross loss' figure is typical of a good operation, not a bad one. In my process there is no dross loss or disposal cost at all, since there is none, and because of the conversion from aluminium metal to aluminium oxide we end up with more tonnes of output than we do of input, rather than losing materials to the angels and the spoil heaps.

BTW, recovery of metals from slag by acid pickling etc is worthwhile only for higher value and more easily reduced metals in general. Also the cost of the input chemicals, treatment tanks, and post-treatment and disposal of the heavily contaminated (I'm sure you can imagine) process water can be very high. As you suggest, not practical here, or indeed anywhere but a gold mine or perhaps a copper mine in a low-wage and low environmental standards country.

Cost of crushed and baled cans delivered to site. $400/tonne. Sale price of ingots delivered to end user $800/tonne. Gross Margin $400/tonne.

Less. Cost of smelting losses as dross etc (15%) calculated as loss of sale value (since it has been through all operations before separation from the output) $120: Cost of dross disposal $10: Cost of shredding and de-lacquering, $20/tonne: Cost of fuel. $50/tonne: Cost of fluxing materials $20/tonne : Cost of labour for entire operation $50/tonne: Cost of delivery to end user $40/tonne: Wear, tear, repair and depreciation of equipment $10/tonne. This gives us a total cost of $320/tonne.

Final figure Gross profit $400 - $320 = $80 net profit on sales, less insurance, administration, bank charges, interest/loan repayments, taxes and environmental charges etc. you would hope to end up with (possibly) $70/tonne. Which unless you are smelting 50+ tonnes/day is a scarily thin margin, and even then requiring a very hard-nosed approach to operational matters.

This is why cans are stockpiled, waiting for secondary metal ingot prices to hit $1000/tone or more, or only smelted by companies that can - because they have the hi-tech plant to do it - can transform ingots into high-value rolled plate etc.

http://www.afsinc.org/about/content.cfm?ItemNumber=10465

And a highly detailed look at combustion chemistry and mechanics.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/…cle/pii/S1359431110004746

Alan,

I am still excited about the process you and your friends invented, and this has nothing to do with what you are about to launch, but...

what if I told you of someone I know, who could turn organic waste (tires, wood, plastics, etc.) into oil, gas, coal, solvents, and gold and silver? Yes, I said gold and silver. Metals. Valuable metals. From biological waste?

Quote from Roseland67

Shane,

What I’m realky looking for is a process that can change nickel to copper,

If I had that, it would really be something.

Roseland,

I knew a guy who used to do that (turn Ni into Cu). But sorry, that was in 2012, and he has added some ingredients since then. Hopefully you can find what you are looking for.