Apologies to all L-F went nuts and posted my posted multiple times, then wouldn't let me delete all the copies.
[edit] Wow. Now I see it did delete all of the copies of my post, and the original, as well. I will try again...
NASA partners with Global Energy Corporation to develop 10kW Hybrid Reactor Generator
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Due to your acknowledged shaky grasp of thermodynamics, I'd like to see your workings please...
A.) The "Acknowledged shaky grasp" is your fiction.
B.) 1.) I already did in our prior discussions. Apparently you caught JR's problem.
2.) I used exactly the same equations you did. The only difference is that you've drawn a box around certain parameter values and won't accept anyone thinking 'outside the box'.
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A) Jed and I acknowledge it. (You might not, but then, your opinion on the matter is likely less valid, c.f. the Dunning-Kruger effect)
B) Your problem is you say
stupid,um, "out-of-the-box" things like 'the water would of had an average temperature of 60 C for an extended period'... Presumably this temperature could only be maintained by a similar air temperature, because, you know, the laws of thermodynamics and that. Such an air temperature would certainly kill most people. -
A) Jed and I acknowledge it (and your opinion on the matter likely less valid, c.f. the Dunning-Kruger effect)
Ah, I see, you get to declare things true with no requirement of proof. (Not!)
B) Your problem is you say stupid, um, "out-of-the-box" things like 'the water would of had an average temperature of 60 C for an extended period'... Presumably this temperature could only be maintained by a similar air temperature, because, you know, the laws of thermodynamics and that.
A good case in point in how you deliberately misrepresent what was written by out-of-context quoting, and throw in ad homs on top of it.
What I was doing was exploring what it took to evaporate the claimed quantities of water. One thing I did in that process is assume different temperature values for use in the evaporation rate calculation (same one you used). I did so because there was lots of talk about the 100C (and greater) temperature being maintained for many days. Thus technically speaking, any temp from 100C down to 0C (winter) could be used to explore the resultant evaporation rates. You however, somehow drew a line in the sand and said "No! Only temps between x and y are allowed!" Under what authority you do that I have no idea, but I decline to accept it. So, you resort to ridicule to counter what I write. Not very scientific of you.
I do congratulate you on your successful application of what JR has taught you about using inappropriate and inaccurate commentary on the Internet. You've done quite well in that department!
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Quote
That is characteristic of nascent science, such as genetics just before DNA was discovered. It attracted many strange people and weird, complicated theories. As James Watson said, it was mostly baloney. See the quote from his book on the last page here
Maybe so but comparisons like that are of limited usefulness. The one comparing LENR scientists with the Wright Brothers is downright silly. If someone could demonstrate LENR as easily as one can an aircraft in flight, there would be no argument. That is why it would be so important to have those making large claims deliver (such as Rossi, Mizuno and Miley to name a few). But they never do.
Surely, you are not thinking of genetics in general starting with Mendel. The practical applications of that became evident immediately. If this field attracted some crazy people, what difference does that make?
But OK, maybe you are talking about the discovery of DNA. Of course, technology was not adequate to investigate DNA at the time of Miescher. So maybe you mean the discovery of DNA structure by Rosalind Franklin and Maurice Wilkins and of course, their data assembled and analyzed by Watson and Crick. Mainline science got behind it in comparatively short time. X-ray crystallography and other specialized techniques made the double helix evident to a large number of mainline scientists who studied molecular biology. Those experiments were extremely consistent and reproducible. The main arguments were about who should get the Nobel prizes. Did DNA structure take 30 years to be accepted and put to practical and extremely important uses? Of course not. As important for the comparison, DNA studies gained interest and acceptance with time at an accelerating rate, very unlike LENR.
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It is fruitless to argue what Mizuno may have done long ago and why Shanahan does or does not believe it happened. Nobody will solve that and anyway, who the hell cares? The very obvious thing to get done is a replication in plain sight with appropriate instrumentation, controls and competent observation and recording. If there are funding sources and graduate students in this world, it is hard to understand why this has not taken place. Unless, of course, the original event was somehow not reported accurately. After all, there are almost no records. Or maybe aging Mizuno forgot how to do it? If so, why do we see his designs and some actual components for ever more powerful reactors? If someone built those reactors and their predicted performance were real, it would be to LENR what the flights of early Wright airplanes were to aviation. Not true?
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It is fruitless to argue what Mizuno may have done long ago and why Shanahan does or does not believe it happened. Nobody will solve that and anyway, who the hell cares?
Exactly. I was just trying to entertain Shane...:)
The very obvious thing to get done is a replication in plain sight with appropriate instrumentation, controls and competent observation and recording.
Also exactly, except that the problem with the Mizuno bucket anecdote is that he thought he had a potential runaway heater in (or around) a closed volume filled with gas. Top that with the fact that the gas filling the volume was likely near the perfect mix of H2 and O2 for an explosion. This scenario leads to the experiment blowing up, which has happened in the past many times, even killing Andrew Riley in one case, so Mizuno didn't want to replicate the same experiment because of safety concerns. So he went to other forms, but they also have proven to be irreproducible. So he sort of tried to 'replicate', but not in exact detail, and without success.
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How do I know that it is the actual room? Trust you? Not. Does your photo show the air flow rate in the room? When was it taken? Years later? Where was the bucket placed? Are all the instruments and furniture in the same position? Do you any idea why that would matter?
If you do not trust this is the room, you have no reason to trust anything else I say. You might as well assert that I made the whole thing up. Since Mizuno and his secretary are standing in the room, it seems likely this is his lab.
To address your questions:
The photo shows a room filled with papers and lab equipment. As described in the book, the cell was placed on the floor. It was behind the equipment shown in the left of the photo. If there had been a ventilation system such as you describe, that produces at 17 mph in that part of the floor, it would blow over over the equipment, and it would blow papers and the other things around the room. No one would be able to work there. It would have to be considerably stronger than 17 mph, because as described in the book, Mizuno put the cell in a sheltered part of the floor behind a steel sheet. The wind throughout the entire building would have to be 40 or 50 mph. As I noted, you cannot stand up in that. It would cause chaos in the labs with expensive equipment and dangerous isotopes. No building designed for laboratories and classrooms has such a powerful ventilation system.
The equipment was in the same place but it would make no difference because there was no ventilation. Japanese buildings from that era (1940s and 50s) had no central heating or air conditioning. They used gas and kerosene heaters for heating, and opened the windows to ventilate in summer. They always turned off all heaters at night, to save fuel, and because the flames were dangerous. Building were cold in winter. When I went to college in Japan, in winter we wore scarfs and overcoats indoors in the labs and classrooms, as they do in North Korea. Such buildings are rare today. This one was torn down years ago. You can see office buildings like this in 1950s movies by Ozu.
Again, I suggest you test your ideas by putting an bucket of water in an ordinary room. You can put a fan in front of it if you want, even though there was no fan in this case. You will see that 10 or 20 L of water do not evaporate overnight. If you will not subject your hypothesis to this simple test, you are no scientist.
The other photo I uploaded here shows a neutron detector in a plastic tent, in the underground laboratory. That photo is from the book. That is where the cell was in open air and remained hot for 3 days. You claim that a cell left in open air will not cool down. I suggest you look at the photo of the cell and the neutron detector, and then set up some similar hot metal object and see what happens.
The rest of your comments are nonsense.
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Top that with the fact that the gas filling the volume was likely near the perfect mix of H2 and O2 for an explosion.
No, it was a closed cell with a recombiner and a pressure gauge. There would be no free H2, only a little orphaned O2. It ran for months. Obviously, it would have exploded without a working recombiner. Even you should realize that.
You should read the book or his papers before commenting.
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It is fruitless to argue what Mizuno may have done long ago and why Shanahan does or does not believe it happened. Nobody will solve that and anyway, who the hell cares? The very obvious thing to get done is a replication in plain sight with appropriate instrumentation, controls and competent observation and recording.
Yes. This was done hundreds of times by Fleischmann and Pons, and many times by others. The skeptics don't believe that either.
If there are funding sources and graduate students in this world, it is hard to understand why this has not taken place.
There was no funding. Mizuno did this with his own money. The university did everything it could to stop him. They did not promote him or fund this or any other research. They loaded him down with make-work. They threatened and cajoled him. Finally, they ordered him to stop. He retired a few years after that.
This was a gross violation of academic freedom and the standards of science. But it wasn't as bad as the abuse meted out many American professors and national lab researchers. They were harassed and fired just for talking about cold fusion, and they got in huge trouble for publishing positive results. See Miles, in his description of the ERAB panel, and his letters here, p. 152. See especially the memo on p. 158.
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmanlettersfroa.pdf
As Schwinger said:
"The pressure for conformity is enormous. I have experienced it in editors’ rejection of
submitted papers, based on venomous criticism of anonymous referees. The replacement of
impartial reviewing by censorship will be the death of science." -
No, it was a closed cell with a recombiner and a pressure gauge. There would no free H2, only a little orphaned O2.
Please read the sidebar at http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw…_of_the_accident_at_s.pdf
Then understand this is not significantly different from Mizuno's setup.
Then, please stop disseminating dangerous information to an unsuspecting public.
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Please read the sidebar at http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw…_of_the_accident_at_s.pdf
Then understand this is not significantly different from Mizuno's setup.That is my whole point. If there had been no recombiner, or if the recombiner had failed the way it did at SRI, the cell would have exploded the first day. It would not have run for months. You cannot indefinitely build up free H2 and O2 gas in a closed cell.
Actually, the cell would not explode, because the relief valve would have vented the gas. That would have ended the experiment. Or, Mizuno would have seen the pressure gauge rising, he would know the recombiner had failed, and he would have stopped the test.
The value should have vented as SRI as well, but it failed. It was a tragic coincidence of several failures at once.
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If you do not trust this is the room, you have no reason to trust anything else I say.
Other way 'round...
It would have to be considerably stronger than 17 mph, because as described in the book, Mizuno put the cell in a sheltered part of the floor behind a steel sheet. The wind throughout the entire building would have to be 40 or 50 mph.
Yup, total lack of understanding on your part, as expected.
They used gas and kerosene heaters for heating, and opened the windows to ventilate in summer.
And you think those don't induce air flow?
You claim that a cell left in open air will not cool down.
*I* never said that. Must've been you. But it does prove my points about you not understanding and then quoting mixed up facts driven by your fanaticism.
Again, I suggest you test your ideas by putting an bucket of water in an ordinary room. You can put a fan in front of it if you want, even though there was no fan in this case. You will see that 10 or 20 L of water do not evaporate overnight.
Don't need to. I've evaporated many solutions in the past by blowing air over them. Variable rates were always noted. One has to specify details to predict accurately, not make the obviously erroneous claims you make about NO ventilation.
All of your comments are nonsense.
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It would not have run for months.
From the sidebar that Jed obviously didn't read:
"The experiment had been going on for some time over 1,000 hours. "
because the relief valve would have vented the gas.
From the sidebar that Jed obviously didn't read:
" perhaps the holes were not sufficiently large to act as adequate vents"
From the sidebar that Jed obviously didn't read:
"The recombiner from that cell has decomposed into small spherical balls containing bits of platinum. This would indicate the violence of the explosion, but nothing about the functioning of the recombiner beforehand. "
From: https://www.nytimes.com/1992/0…old-fusion-scientist.html
"that the surviving scientists told investigators that an automatic pressure-release valve was not functioning properly on a canister being used in an experiment and that the explosion occurred when one of them tried to release the pressure manually."
From https://www.nytimes.com/1992/0…old-fusion-scientist.html
"The blast at SRI International, which injured three others, occurred after an automatic pressure-release valve failed on a sealed canister, fire officials said."
And just as a further caution: From https://www.newscientist.com/a…-cold-fusion-laboratory/:
"Bockris says 30 or 40 such explosions have occurred in his laboratory. In most cases, they forced the top off the steel cell; six times, the bottom blew out."
The points are: Devices fail. And it was at least thought to be a prime contributor to the death at the time. I personally am unsure if this remained true. McKubre put out a report once that had an analysis of the event. Part of it was on microfiche (remember that?) and included a finite element analysis of the scenario. But I don't recall if they decided the valve failed or if the pressure buildup was too fast for the vent system to handle.
Also, the cell was doing electrolysis, so there was significant H2(D2) and O2 in the cell volume, in contrast to what Jed said.
Don't listen to him, especially here on this issue, folks!
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They used gas and kerosene heaters for heating, and opened the windows to ventilate in summer.
And you think those don't induce air flow?
As I said, go ahead and put a bucket in front of an open window, a fan, or an electric heater with a built-in fan. You will see that 20 L do not evaporate overnight. You probably do not have a gas or kerosene heater, but a 1.5 kW electric heater with a fan placed close to the bucket is probably more effective than the Japanese gas heaters of that era.
However, as it happens, they always turned off all heaters in buildings in Japan overnight. There were signs everywhere warning people to do this. In every hallway, there was a designated person who was supposed to check all rooms before leaving (a professors, who had the keys). You were not supposed to leave an open flame in any unattended room. You would get in trouble for doing that.
Open flames are extremely dangerous in Japan because of earthquakes. Kerosene heaters are dangerous no matter what. A friend of mine was nearly killed by one, and permanently lost a lot of his hair to scar tissue.
Open flames are less common these days, but they still have signs everywhere warning against them, in every kitchen and laboratory I know of. The wording is the same as it was in the Edo period: hi no youjin, but I doubt young people have it pounded into them as much as they used to.*I* never said that. Must've been you. But it does prove my points about you not understanding and then quoting mixed up facts driven by your fanaticism.
You did say it, repeatedly. I and others have pointed these message out to you, repeatedly. I will not bother to dig them up again. You will ignore me and deny it again. You are trying to "gaslight" us, telling us you did not say what you said.
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Also, the cell was doing electrolysis, so there was significant H2(D2) and O2 in the cell volume, in contrast to what Jed said
No, that is impossible. The recombiner eliminates H2 as soon as the bubbles emerge and the gas enters the headspace. There is only orphaned O2. That is the whole point of a recombiner.
You can measure loading by the gas pressure from orphaned O2. The results agree with other methods. This would not work if there was some random amount of H2.
Sometimes, a recombiner gets wet and fails for several minutes. When this happens, free H2 or D2 build up in the headspace, and the pressure rises. When the recombiner begins working again there is a sharp "pop" sound and the pressure drops. Mizuno and other electrochemists often see that happen. If the recombiner failure continues for hours, the relief valve opens. If it fails to open, the cell explodes. It is not possible for large amounts of free gas to build up. The cell must rupture, or explode.
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"Bockris says 30 or 40 such explosions have occurred in his laboratory. In most cases, they forced the top off the steel cell; six times, the bottom blew out."
Yes. Obviously that is what Mizuno's cell would have done if the recombiner and relief value had failed. It would not build up vast amounts of chemical energy in the form of free D2 and O2 gas, contrary to what you said. It would not build up much at all. After an hour or so, the relief valve would blow out, or the whole cell would explode the way Bockris' did.
In any case, the heat output far exceeded the limits of chemical fuel. If every gram of water had converted to free D2 and O2, and magically stayed in the cell without rupturing it, this would not have generated 85 MJ.
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A couple of cases in point:
"No one could have disturbed the cell or dumped the water in his absence. No one else had access to the lab. It was during a national holiday. He is the only one who entered the lab. It was locked and secured. This was in the Nuclear Engineering Building in a National University. It was a secure building with lots of expensive equipment, heavy machinery, radiation danger signs, heavy doors, badge access, 24-hour guards, etc."
and
I am pretty sure a locked, guarded facility designed to contain nuclear research experiments and radiation was a lot safer! The place had shields, steel plates, gloves, glove boxes and radiation detectors galore.
but from above:
In every hallway, there was a designated person who was supposed to check all rooms before leaving (a professors, who had the keys).
So, now we have a _new_ question: Heater on or off? Proof of that?
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You claim that a cell left in open air will not cool down.
*I* never said that. Must've been you. But it does prove my points about you not understanding and then quoting mixed up facts driven by your fanaticism.
from JR's 8 page intro:
"April 22, 1991. Electrolysis stopped.
April 25. Mizuno and Akimoto note that temperature is elevated. It has produced 1.2 H 107 joules
since April 22, in heat-after-death. The cell is removed from the underground lab and transferred to Mizuno’s lab. Cell
temperature is >100 deg C. " (emphasis added)Also,
That is where the cell was in open air and remained hot for 3 days.
Also, the whole idea of the water evaporation JR points to is that he thinks the cell stayed hot for many more days. "May 7. The cell is finally cool. "
So, based on that, I should have been using 100C in my sensitivity analysis, but I didn't, I used 75 and 60 to allow for some cooling, which Jed says I disallow. But, but...to allow for cooling I can't claim that "a cell left in open air will not cool down". There he (JR) goes again....
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Yes. Obviously that is what Mizuno's cell would have done if the recombiner and relief value had failed. It would not build up vast amounts of chemical energy in the form of free D2 and O2 gas, contrary to what you said. It would not build up much at all. After an hour or so, the relief valve would blow out, or the whole cell would explode the way Bockris' did.
L-F folks, this comment by JR shows a complete lack of understanding of the hazards associated with operating F&P electrolysis setups. Please don't trust his word on this. He is wrong, and if you are running electrolysis based experiments, please do so anticipating your setup will blow up as described in the Andrew Riley case.
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FWIW I have had a bucket with around 10 litres of grey water sitting under the bench for almost 3 weeks, lab temperature a steady 18C (I like it cool). Checked today, it has lost less than 2 litres of the original volume.
