Quote from MarkGoldes

The documents attached earlier comprise what is readily available at present.

Work on the Waters Turbine is expected to resume in the next few months. Since it is aimed at commercialization, additional tests will be part of the program.

New prototypes will be developed with the goal of market entry next year. All the materials from earlier tests will be reviewed.

Beta production will provide important feedback data.

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Surely there is a Waters Turbine that has already been made? I saw a picture:

13212-pasted-from-clipboard-png

Before 'new' prototypes are made, surely the one(s) already in existence can be tested!

The nice thing is that testing is straight forward. Wind speed and electrical power output are measured. Done.

If the original design doesn't come close to being exceptional, why bother with new prototypes.

If it *is* exceptional, then surely the windspeed at the point of entering the turbine will be found to be greatly enhanced, perhaps by air entrainment in a tornado type of vortex entering the turbine. But these are just imaginings, a vane (pun intended) substitute to a simple working prototype!

Quote from MarkGoldes

Mark U. The output of prototypes and the independent reproduction were so much greater than anticipated, or could be explained by energy available from the wind, that Waters concluded that thermodynamics must explain the surplus. That eventually led to his statement about ambient heat.

I can offer no additional information.

I do not see how this contraption could be a thermodynamic converter of heat to mechanical energy, when all it does is redirect air current.

Which leads me to conclude error in measurements and mathematics.

Quote from Alan Smith

I think you saw a computer graphic.

I thought it looked like an image from a Godzilla movie, but didn’t want to say anything...

Quote from Alan Smith

I think you saw a computer graphic.

I agree. There are pics of three prototypes here though: http://watersturbine.weebly.com/waters-turbine.html

Reading the text we see that wind velocity and pressure profiles have been taken! There is verbosity, but what is conspicuously absent is simple electrical power output. But, they have put the axle under load :

Quote

Test equipment involved a Prony brake, rpm meter and wind meter. Accuracy of both wind and rpm meters was within 5%. Prony brake measurements were comparative and direct, utilizing the same shaft load for both designs in the same conditions at the same time.

There are comparisons to a conventional turbine:

Quote

Another interesting data point, under extreme shaft load, the conventional turbine would not turn, even at 28 mph. My design in the same conditions self starts at 11 mph. Again, based on wind turbine speed/force polars, this difference is significant, confirming 3rd party test results.

I would think this should depend very much on the gearing system, not just on turbine design.

My suggestion to Mark G: forget new prototypes for now. Just ask that they attach a gear system and generator to what they currently have. It ultimately has to be done anyway. Frankly, putting this off is avoidance of a likely mediocre outcome imo.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

• Doctor: Burger King's 'Impossible Burger' has 18 million times more estrogen than regular Whopper.

  The impossible whopper has 44 mg of estrogen and the whopper has 2.5 ng of estrogen,” wrote Stangle. “That means an impossible whopper has 18 million times as much estrogen as a regular whopper.” In short, the Impossible Burger is a genetically modified organism filled with calorie-dense oils that can make a man grow breasts if eaten in sufficient quantity.

  • New studies suggest that eating large amounts of soy’s estrogen-mimicking compounds might reduce fertility in women, trigger early puberty and disrupt development of fetuses and children. Women with estrogen-positive breast cancer must avoid soybean sprouts, because they contain plant hormones that may stimulate the growth of their tumors. The consumption of soya can be also linked to global rise of endiometriosis in women, because estrogens (as their name implies) can induce oestrus and ovulation across internal surface of intestine cavity.
  • Song 1999 found that (in laboratory mice) soy isoflavones are only weakly estrogenic, much less so than actual estrogen. But negative results of animal research studies into soy may be irrelevant to human health, particularly because soy is metabolized differently in humans and in rodents.
  • Allen et al. 2000 found that vegan men have significantly higher testosterone than vegetarian or meat-eating men — because "soy" being nearly synonymous with tofu (and thus vegan/vegetarianism). The study controlled for "age, smoking status, vigorous exercise and time between venipuncture and blood processing".
  • Sperm count decline and increasing rate of testicular cancers in the West may be linked to a higher presence of phytoestrogens in the diet. Furthermore, there is some evidence that phytoestrogens may affect male fertility, despite "further investigation is needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn". But because soya lobby is strong, we are still waiting for such an investigations. Ten-times increase of soya consumption worldwide in recent twenty years is result of smart marketing campaign, the main purpose of which was to increase demand for industrial waste (soybean meal
• from press cake) of production of cheap soybean oil.
• Does Red Clover Cause Infertility in Sheep? Phytoestrogens are known like endocrine disruptors. They're also responsible for bitter taste of soya products. The content of phytoestrogens is particularly high (50-150x) in popular soybean sprout
• which are often consumed fresh at West, whereas Koreans use mung beans instead and just after cooking or fermentation, which may limit their adverse effects.
• An allergic reaction to chemicals in soybeans is among the top 8 food allergies in North America. Most of those who are allergic to soy are allergic to one or more of the proteins in the bean, but also to components of soybean oil. And I'm not still talking about allergenic effects of GMO soya, which forms majority of soya production today 1, 2, 3, 4.
• Industrial soyabeans products often contain excessive amount of neurotoxic aluminium, because they're produced by washing with acids in aluminium tanks. The aluminium content in soybean protein concentrate can reach 200 mg kg-1 or higher.
• Goitrogens in soya are also strumigens as they block thyroxine production and iodine uptake, phytate proteins, which limit uptake of calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc from food and finally anti-nutrition proteins (trypsin inhibitors

), which suppress protein digestion of proteins (antinutritionals are linked to malnutrition of soya diet). From this reason raw soybeans aren't edible as they cannot be digested at all.

Therefore the switching to soya diet instead of meat may paradoxically increase both malnutrition, both consumption of proteins as a whole by human society (eating soya products leaves you hungry, which is good for their producers, much less for their consumers).

Thanks for the great overview.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

• Doctor: Burger King's 'Impossible Burger' has 18 million times more estrogen than regular Whopper.

  The impossible whopper has 44 mg of estrogen and the whopper has 2.5 ng of estrogen,” wrote Stangle. “That means an impossible whopper has 18 million times as much estrogen as a regular whopper.” In short, the Impossible Burger is a genetically modified organism filled with calorie-dense oils that can make a man grow breasts if eaten in sufficient quantity.

  • New studies suggest that eating large amounts of soy’s estrogen-mimicking compounds might reduce fertility in women, trigger early puberty and disrupt development of fetuses and children. Women with estrogen-positive breast cancer must avoid soybean sprouts, because they contain plant hormones that may stimulate the growth of their tumors. The consumption of soya can be also linked to global rise of endiometriosis in women, because estrogens (as their name implies) can induce oestrus and ovulation across internal surface of intestine cavity.
  • Song 1999 found that (in laboratory mice) soy isoflavones are only weakly estrogenic, much less so than actual estrogen. But negative results of animal research studies into soy may be irrelevant to human health, particularly because soy is metabolized differently in humans and in rodents.
  • Allen et al. 2000 found that vegan men have significantly higher testosterone than vegetarian or meat-eating men — because "soy" being nearly synonymous with tofu (and thus vegan/vegetarianism). The study controlled for "age, smoking status, vigorous exercise and time between venipuncture and blood processing".
  • Sperm count decline and increasing rate of testicular cancers in the West may be linked to a higher presence of phytoestrogens in the diet. Furthermore, there is some evidence that phytoestrogens may affect male fertility, despite "further investigation is needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn". But because soya lobby is strong, we are still waiting for such an investigations. Ten-times increase of soya consumption worldwide in recent twenty years is result of smart marketing campaign, the main purpose of which was to increase demand for industrial waste (soybean meal
• from press cake) of production of cheap soybean oil.
• Does Red Clover Cause Infertility in Sheep? Phytoestrogens are known like endocrine disruptors. They're also responsible for bitter taste of soya products. The content of phytoestrogens is particularly high (50-150x) in popular soybean sprout
• which are often consumed fresh at West, whereas Koreans use mung beans instead and just after cooking or fermentation, which may limit their adverse effects.
• An allergic reaction to chemicals in soybeans is among the top 8 food allergies in North America. Most of those who are allergic to soy are allergic to one or more of the proteins in the bean, but also to components of soybean oil. And I'm not still talking about allergenic effects of GMO soya, which forms majority of soya production today 1, 2, 3, 4.
• Industrial soyabeans products often contain excessive amount of neurotoxic aluminium, because they're produced by washing with acids in aluminium tanks. The aluminium content in soybean protein concentrate can reach 200 mg kg-1 or higher.
• Goitrogens in soya are also strumigens as they block thyroxine production and iodine uptake, phytate proteins, which limit uptake of calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc from food and finally anti-nutrition proteins (trypsin inhibitors

), which suppress protein digestion of proteins (antinutritionals are linked to malnutrition of soya diet). From this reason raw soybeans aren't edible as they cannot be digested at all.

Therefore the switching to soya diet instead of meat may paradoxically increase both malnutrition, both consumption of proteins as a whole by human society (eating soya products leaves you hungry, which is good for their producers, much less for their consumers).

Yuck,

I'll stick to chicken burgers in order to reduce the CO2 footprint then. (I actually like them more then usual burgers).

Quote from Mark U

The Waters turbine looks like something that would make for a potentially very practical DIY project for someone with the skills. Then we would know firsthand of the type of problems it faces. It is works as claimed, personally I much prefer it to the designs currently in vogue.

Found a couple of themtube videos DIY projects inspired by the Waters turbine.

But the video below is my kind of exploration into small scale wind turbines. The guys at Clarkson University will even help people test their turbine designs, and that probably involves hooking the turbine up to a generator.

Quote from Mark U

The guys at Clarkson University

Great research work by a small team of engineers

https://www.researchgate.net/p…Cp5b9jfIC1FNyIcWAQ&_iepl=

. A prototype 2.5 m ducted rotor was tested and exhibited the potential for generating twice as much energy as a conventional open rotor

, indicating experimental Cp values of 0.8 to 0.95, almost three times that of small commercially available turbines.

The use of a ducted turbine configuration can reduce the size of the required generator and possibly the weight of the entire turbine at the mast head.

Quote from Mark U

I agree. There are pics of three prototypes here though: http://watersturbine.weebly.com/waters-turbine.html

Reading the text we see that wind velocity and pressure profiles have been taken! There is verbosity, but what is conspicuously absent is simple electrical power output. But, they have put the axle under load :

There are comparisons to a conventional turbine:

I would think this should depend very much on the gearing system, not just on turbine design.

My suggestion to Mark G: forget new prototypes for now. Just ask that they attach a gear system and generator to what they currently have. It ultimately has to be done anyway. Frankly, putting this off is avoidance of a likely mediocre outcome imo.

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O dear, it is the same mistake we often see, experimenters confuse torque and power and efficiency.

"

Comparing my 4' design against a stock 5' three blade, under the same load, the conventional product starts at over 7 mph and produces very little torque or rpm at that speed. My turbine, under the same load starts at under 1 mph. If the square force relationship is used, that is 49 times more force required to turn the conventional design.

"

To get the power he needs to multiply torque in NewtonMeters with the rotational speed in Radians pr. Seconds.

Different wind speeds and different torque applied will then result in different rpms and then generate datapoints which will indicate a maximum power curve at various wind speeds.

Now compare this with the maximum energy of the wind = 0,5 * air density * wind area covered by the turbine * wind velocity ^3

The wind area is just the PI * the waters turbine radius ^2

To CONCLUDE: comparing torque of a propeller wind turbine with the waters turbine tell nothing more than which turbine is easier to start, and the lower velocity range.

But 14 mph is only 6 m/s speed, not much energy in the wind at these wind speeds...

A 5' turbine will then cover a wind area containing 200 Watt theoretical energy.

If it converts 80% of the Betz limit we get 93 Watt power.

Now prove that a Waters turbine are able to produce 93 Watt at 6 m/s.

Quote from stefan

I'll stick to chicken burgers in order to reduce the CO2 footprint then.

New studies suggest that eating large amounts of soy’s estrogen-mimicking compounds might reduce fertility in women, trigger early puberty and disrupt development of fetuses and children. Women with estrogen-positive breast cancer must avoid soybean sprouts, because they contain plant hormones that may stimulate the growth of their tumors. The consumption of soya can be also linked to global rise of endiometriosis in women, because estrogens (as their name implies) can induce oestrus and ovulation across internal surface of intestine cavity.

Only Bio/free range chickens are healthy...

Soy proteins are the main cause that Japanese woman almost do have no breast cancer as all kids eat a lot of tofu & soy sauce. This diet works only before puberty as studies did show.

Today most woman have no kids until late in live what is not the way evolution did propose. An early kid probably once did help to fully develop/mature breast cells what possibly prevents later cancers. But soy (for young girls at least) would be the best solution today.

Quote from Wyttenbach

Only Bio/free range chickens are healthy...

Soy proteins are the main cause that Japanese woman almost do have no breast cancer as all kids eat a lot of tofu & soy sauce. This diet works only before puberty as studies did show.

Today most woman have no kids until late in live what is not the way evolution did propose. An early kid probably once did help to fully develop/mature breast cells what possibly prevents later cancers. But soy (for young girls at least) would be the best solution today.

Beans, nuts and legumes are a decent protein source for whole food plant based approach. Heck I don't have any processed meat substitutes, it's those things mentioned above and eggs 🤷🏽‍♂️. Also the fats are healthier. Fatty fruits like avocado and ackee, nuts and rich legumes like peanuts do the body good. The flesh of avacado and legumes is the meat! You don't need chicken, even though free range grass fed is a good healthy idea.

The share of renewable energy continues to make new records. This is partly because of the pandemic. Demand has fallen. Renewables are cheaper than other sources once they come on line, because there is no fuel cost. Natural gas might be cheaper over the life of the equipment, but the operating cost is higher. The other reason renewables are a larger percent of the total is: you cannot easily turn off wind or solar generation. So you might as well use it. (Actually, you can feather a turbine and there are ways to throw away the electricity.) So, you turn off natural gas and even nukes before you turn off renewables.

Hydroelectricity is the only renewable source that works on demand, and that can be turned off and saved up for future use.

See:

Renewable energy provides 25.3% of U.S. electricity during first 5 months of 2020

https://www.renewableenergywor…arter-of-u-s-electricity/

Quote from JedRothwell

Hydroelectricity is the only renewable source that works on demand

Droughts are a problem with hydro.

Hydro can only work if there is rain.

East African countries had severe problems in 2017/2018 .. something to do with La Nina

This article talks about vulnerabilty to climate change

https://www.dw.com/en/hydropow…climate-change/a-42472070

""If we keep depending only on one source like hydropower, vulnerability will stay very high," she says.

"We have to bring all the options together — biomass, wind, solar, biofuels, etc."

Can.will LENR be in etc?

https://www.timminstoday.com/c…s-elon-musks-call-2594671

Hydrogen storage as an alternative to lithium batteries

UNSW research

https://www.smh.com.au/environ…ions-20200702-p558dj.html

the titanium alloy might be based on TiFe0.85Mn0.15

https://www.researchgate.net/p…activation_upon_oxidation

Quote from RobertBryant

Hydrogen storage as an alternative to lithium batteries

This idea has been around for a long time. It is a shame they have not made more progress with it. It has one advantage this diagram does not show: the components do not have to be in the same place. They can be hundreds of miles apart. You can generate the gas and send it in a pipeline to a city where the power is generated. Or you can generate the electricity and send it to the hydrogen generator and storage gadget. You pay a price either way, but it might work better when the solar panel or wind turbines are far from population centers where the electric power is needed.

Sending pure hydrogen gas via pipeline is not a problem. It has been done in Germany for decades. See the book Tomorrow's Energy for details.

Quote from JedRothwell

his idea has been around for a long time. It is a shame they have not made more progress with it.

Australia has a hydrogen (not deuterium) economy dream..so there is a bit more progress here

but Europe also has some interest... at least iron and titanium are cheap

Hydrogen storage properties of Mn and Cu for Fesubstitution in TiFe0.9 intermetallic compound

"https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.04947.pdf"

Found a paper I wish there was more on it, Alan Smith is a researcher on the paper! Carbon 13 has seven protons, could there be a pico-chemical interaction producing a similar signature..? There is another experiment where that is the main change, a higher ratio of "carbon 13" with excess heat too 😉.