LENR vs Solar/Wind, and emerging Green Technologies.

Quote from Dr Richard

Sorry @Jed Rothwell I didn't realize you are such an expert on this. Of course electric cars are much more efficient and easier to maintain..But where can I find a cheap one?

I am not an expert. I just read the textbooks.

You cannot find one that is cheaper than a gasoline car yet, because manufacturers don't make as many, and they have not been making them for long. Also because they are a hot item. Trendy. So they are sold at a premium. It is like buying designer shoes instead of regular shoes. The materials and cost of production is the same but you pay more for the image.

~69 million gasoline cars are manufactured per year. Roughly 10 million electric cars are made, 7 million of them in China. They have only been mass produced for about 10 years. When the numbers begin to approach gasoline cars, and manufacturers have a great deal of experience making them, there is no doubt the price will fall to about the same level as gasoline cars. I say there is no doubt because the materials and manufacturing techniques are not inherently more expensive. The design is actually simpler. Automobile unions are concerned because it is easier to automate electric car manufacturing, and the transition is expected to reduce the need for workers. So, after a few decades they may be cheaper than gasoline cars.

https://www.statista.com/stati…on-in-selected-countries/

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Not accidentally Germany and Denmark, i.e, the countries with highest portion of "cheapest" energy have highest prices of energy. Denmark's price of electricity highest in Europe: 0.41 Euro per Kwh.

You are completely wrong.

Denmark has low market price on Power caused by renewables, but high taxes.

Denmark has high tax in general, like the highest priced cars in the world.

And taxes run their social benefit system, as I have explained earlier.

Actually there are cheap second hand Nissans for sate, my brother likes taking things to pieces and is a really good mechanic, but I warned him this was very dangerous from the point of electrocution. He bought some old piece of scrap for a few hundred at auction, nobody wanted it because the battery was flat, and the bodywork was scratched and scraped. but he got it running in the end and just uses it for shopping, not long distance, he has a has a petrol micra for that. He just told me and has a load of second hand tatty solar panels recharging it, completely off grid. I am going to ask him if he can find one for me. His pride and joy though is an electric bicycle.

Quote

Denmark has high tax in general, like the highest priced cars in the world. And taxes run their social benefit system, as I have explained earlier.

Linked article says it clearly: the price of electricity goes after green taxes, not social system. Now, green taxes make up 66 percent of Danish electricity bills, only 15 percent of electricity bills went to energy generation. Which is a bit strange for off-shore wind plants, which should pay itself during first six-nine months of their electricity production, don't you think?

In addition, there is correlation which I already linked: all countries which implemented renewables have electricity more expensive, independently on their welfare social system. For example Sweden, which has strongest social system has relatively low price of electricity. From this it's evident that high price of electricity goes into account of "renewables", nothing else.

Quote from interested observer

Out of curiosity, if you decide to get a new car, will you buy a Chevy Versa or a Nissan Spark for $15,000? I doubt it.

I would have in the past. The car I tossed out the other day was a 1994 Geo Metro that cost $8,000. No radio, no electronics, roll up windows, manual shift. I loved it! It was like driving a Model T Ford.

This time I got a used 2017 Nissan Leaf. It was more expensive than other used cars. I can't justify the cost because I do not drive many miles. I will never make it back in gasoline savings. But I do love high tech machines. And low tech machines. The ones in the middle bore me.

The thing is, we have a Prius for long distance travel. So the limited range of the Leaf is fine with me.

Quote from interested observer

Those are among the cheapest cars you could buy but most people don’t buy the cheapest cars.

I do. I buy the cheapest anything when it serves my purposes. An axe, not a chainsaw. I agree with Arthur Clarke, that we should take what we want from technology, and leave the rest. I have no objection to cells phones, but no use for one either. In his essay "Technology and the Limits of Knowledge" (1972), Clarke concludes:

"Not long ago, I was driving through the outskirts of Bombay when I noticed a sadhu (holy man) with just two visible possessions. One was a skimpy loincloth; the other, slung round his neck on a strap, was a transistorized megaphone. There, I told myself, goes a man who does not hesitate to use technology to spread his particular brand of knowledge. He has grasped the one tool he needs, and discarded all else.

And that is the true wisdom -- whether it comes from the East, or from the West."

Quote from interested observer

In the US, they now spend an average of $37,000.

That's an insane amount of money for most families, for most cars.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Linked article says it clearly: the price of electricity goes after green taxes, not social system. Now, green taxes make up 66 percent of Danish electricity bills, 

BS.

Why do you link old obscure blog-posts?

Like 66% taxes back in 2014.

VAT - value added tax is high in Denmark, 25%, and has NOTHING to do with " Green taxes."

Also they have tax to support the electricity distribution system, which has made the Danish Electricity grid the most stable grid in the world.

The Danish tax system is political decided, not decided by ENERGY SOURCES.

Lets look at more recent facts.

Now it seems subsidies are om the way out, caused by cost reductions.

https://www.danskenergi.dk/udgivelser/elpris-outlook-2019

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Linked article says it clearly: the price of electricity goes after green taxes, not social system. Now, green taxes make up 66 percent of Danish electricity bills, only

The Danish " Green tax" , called Public Service Offering" ( PSO) was only 9% in 2016. The major taxes is what I explained above.

HOWEVER;

The PSO is about to be abolished. Og is reduced and will be ZERO in 2022.

This means Offshore wind now is built without subsidies.

Quote

VAT - value added tax is high in Denmark, 25%, and has NOTHING to do with " Green taxes.

If it hasn't, why you're talking about it? I'm talking about green tax and this is much higher in Denmark. On graph bellow it's labelled by maroon colour though..

Quote from interested observer

If you are someone who enjoys driving a certain sort of car for whatever reasons those might be, then it is a matter of where you want to spend your money. There are no one-size-fits-all answers in the world of cars.

That's true. Cars mean a lot to some people. And why shouldn't they? Some people enjoy expensive artworks, or antiques, or a home theater. It's their money. For me, my 1994 Geo Metro was a utilitarian object like a pair of boots. The Leaf is that too, but also a sort of toy, worth a few thousand extra.

For many teenagers in the 1950s and 60s, cars meant more than they do now. Kids went cruising around like in the movie "American Graffiti." Nowadays, many young people don't bother to get a license at age 16. It is become passe. Perhaps when self-driving cars become universal, and you can no longer express yourself by driving on public roads, people will no longer invest ego in their car. Most people may use robotic taxis called by cell phone, and cleaned every day by robots. More like elevators than cars.

I used to be strongly anti-automobile, because of the environmental damage they cause, and the disruption to urban areas. I still am opposed to them in many ways. I hope that most roads will be put underground centuries from now. I favor a large toll for city centers in places like London and New York. I am glad to see that Paris and other cities are banning them from many roads, restoring the city to pedestrians. The Netherlands and Denmark, which are flat places, have seen a tremendous increase in bicycle use. Milan, Seattle and other cities have banned cars from many streets during the coronavirus to give people more room to walk, and now they say they will make the ban permanent. As Clarke said, we should take the technology we need, and leave the rest. We need cars for some things, but not in downtown Manhattan.

Then again, I think about what my mother said about cars. She grew up in the 1920s and 30s. She learned to drive the family Model T Ford in New York City at age 13, and drove the car from then on, because her father did not like to drive, and the police did not enforce license laws back then. She drove army trucks, tractors, "anything with wheels." She agreed with me that too many cars, traffic jams, accidents and pollution are bad. But they are the result of too much of a good thing. She said you have to understand what it was like when cars first came into our lives. You have to understand how liberating it was, and how many people were given the freedom to live and work where they wanted, and go wherever they felt like going. F. Allen's book "The Big Change" has a chapter on "The Automobile Revolution" describing this. Well worth reading. A car gave a sense of freedom you cannot appreciate now that we have had them our whole lives. When technology is everywhere, and you have always had it, you take it for granted. You don't appreciate it. When you grew up without it, you never stop feeling grateful for it. Take computers. I went through college writing with a typewriter, or writing by hand in Japanese. Ugh! I had to look up words, schlep to the library for information, and manually organize bibliographies. I have hundreds of books because that was the only way a person could have information, literature, culture and knowledge at your fingertips before the internet was invented. So I appreciate computers more than any young person does today -- because I lived without them.

The first thing I did out of college was to get a computer and program it to do word processing and spell checking. From that day on, I never wrote without it. I appreciate those things! I appreciate Microsoft Word. Everyone who grew up with it complains about it. It is lousy software in many ways, but even the worst word processor is incomparably better than writing by hand, or with a typewriter.

If we ever get cold fusion, the first generation will appreciate it. They will consider it a miracle. All generations after that will take it for granted, and complain about it. That is as it should be. People should demand more from technology. Otherwise, things will not improve.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

I'm talking about green tax and this is much higher in Denmark. On graph bellow it's labelled by maroon colour though..

AGAIN:

The Danish " Green tax" , called Public Service Offering" ( PSO) was only 9% in 2016. The major taxes in the electricity bill is what I explained above.

HOWEVER;

The PSO is about to be abolished. Og is reduced and will be ZERO in 2022.

This means Offshore wind now is built without subsidies.

Quote

tax to support the electricity distribution system, which has made the Danish Electricity grid the most stable grid in the world

"Renewables" need oversized grid, because they must be balanced with fossils at massive scale, but 50% green tax for already high electricity price is simply way too much.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

they already realized that renewable electricity makes them poor - but German lobby of wind plant manufacturers is stronger.

You should start to think and stop reading comics an manga.

May be its time you explain us why you intentionally spread FUD?

Do you still not understand that the German politics did pay their prime voters (house owner) a 12% annually rate for adding Solar on the roof??

This has nothing to do with renewables. It's how you misuse government power.

I'm still hanging on to the idea we can refit electric motors and power systems to the cars we have. kits to learn the systems. ect. It would be a huge learning curve for everyone going forwards. lots of ideas would surface as the tech reaches new ideas and ways to change things.

before we start building ~

if it all stays in the hands of the crompblers its no good to us.

I found an amazing wind generator made by TESUP on E bay producing 2 kW at low wind speeds, far better than solar panels. Produces AC power which can be converted to DC for battery charging. What do other members think of this? I could just stick in in the back garden without any panning permission?

If I bought ten of them that would generate 20 KW enough to power a whole four properties at Tregiffian in Cornwall and the wind never stops here. And nobody would see them! And the wind speed accelerates here coming up the hill from the surfing beaches. I must get one to test out.

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