Solar and wind inject massive inefficiencies into the system and in the end consumers pay for these inefficiencies.
Trollogic... Local solar produces no grid loss that is 10% for long distance and 10% for local distribution.
So local production saves gridenergy!
The Great Sahara and Solar.
Trollogic... Local solar produces no grid loss that is 10% for long distance and 10% for local distribution.
In the U.S., grid losses are 5% for transportation and distribution (T&D) combined. Not 20%.
The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that electricity transmission and distribution (T&D) losses equaled about 5% of the electricity transmitted and distributed in the United States in 2016 through 2020.
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
I don't have time to debate this issue further so I am going to do a drive-by shooting here. Nowhere ever in history has an increase in "cheap" solar and wind energy every results in LOWER prices
Generalisations about windpower..solarpower ignore location location location..
In NZ wind is more economic than solar...at the moment...
its a windy group of islands in the South Pacific
New Zealand’s wind industry does not receive direct financial support or subsidies from the government. Nonetheless, the development of a new wind farm near Wellington, West Wind, and ongoing investigations at other sites shows that with the right conditions, wind energy is competitive with other forms of electricity generation.
In 2007 the government announced its target for New Zealand to generate 90 per cent of its electricity from renewable sources by 2025. New Zealand currently generates about 65 per cent of its electricity from renewable sources, primarily from hydro. To reach 90 per cent, renewable energy capacity needs to grow by about 200 MW each year.
Wind provides about 1.5 per cent of New Zealand’s current electricity needs. With limited opportunities for the expansion of hydro and geothermal generation, the renewable energy target gives added impetus to New Zealand’s wind industry. Wind energy’s contribution is set to grow over the coming years and developers are currently seeking consent to build projects with a combined capacity of more than 1,800 MW.
and then is natural LENR, alias geothermal. heating .,.which depends on location location location,,..
Geothermal - Tauhara North No.2 Trust
In the U.S., grid losses are 5% for transportation and distribution (T&D) combined. Not 20%.
WELCOME to 'lying by statistics'; Expect larger losses for those longer transmission line runs from say Washington State etc down to loads in California and Canada (like Hydro) down into load centers e.g. the NE US incl the NYC area, versus shorter 100+ mile hops in other areas; so the 'aggregate' 5% figure can be quite misleading ...
So can be wind power distribution. In 2017 I visited my daughter in Rolling Hills, Wyoming. One morning I went out and counted the number of windmills I could see. I got up to 100. I was surprised to learn that the power went to California (L. A.). Get out a map and figure out the line losses for that transmission.🤠
You can do a country by country comparison with the % of renewables on the Y axis and the retail price of electricity on the x-axis. Then you do the regression and you can see the R^2 and correlation. If your hypothesis is correct that wind and solar are much cheaper sources of power then the regression should show a general decrease in retail prices as the share of wind and solar increase in a given country.
Whilst it’s commendable that you have researched some actual data to bolster your argument, the above comment displays a deep misunderstanding of statistics.
The graph you posted shows R^2 = 0.125! (I think… it’s pretty blurry) if that is the case, a more accurate conclusion would be to say that 87.5% of the variability in energy prices is caused by factors other than those considered in your hypothesis.
In other words, you’ve managed to turn a second or third order effect into a headline. 3/10. Must try harder.
(As a aside, I’ll bet if you removed Germany from your analysis, your regression line would be effectively horizontal).
So can be wind power distribution. In 2017 I visited my daughter in Rolling Hills, Wyoming. One morning I went out and counted the number of windmills I could see. I got up to 100. I was surprised to learn that the power went to California (L. A.). Get out a map and figure out the line losses for that transmission.🤠
Who told you that?! The local cafe owner? Are you suggesting that Rolling hills has its own special HV link to Los Angeles?
This isn’t how power grids work. Whilst California imports a fair amount of its electricity, the above statement is overly simplistic.
With the loss in transition= why they add solar at a house ?
+sine wave keeping the mains cooler.
knowing if the power go's out that the solar home go's dark too.
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WELCOME to 'lying by statistics'; Expect larger losses for those longer transmission line runs from say Washington State etc down to loads in California and Canada (like Hydro) down into load centers e.g. the NE US incl the NYC area, versus shorter 100+ mile hops in other areas; so the 'aggregate' 5% figure can be quite misleading
Anyone with the least knowledge of electricity knows that. And that is what the EIA document says. Did you read it? It says:
"EIA has estimates for total annual T&D losses in the State Electricity Profiles. Data for each state and for the entire United States are in Table 10: Supply and Disposition of Electricity of each profile. To find the table, scroll down a Profile page to find the link under Table 1 for Full data tables 1-17. Click on the link, and in the resulting screen see the link for an xls file. In the file, see the worksheet 10: Source-Disposition, and in the worksheet, see the row for estimated losses in the table."
The table for the state of Washington says T&D losses were 4,829,035 MWh.
Who told you that?! The local cafe owner? Are you suggesting that Rolling hills has its own special HV link to Los Angeles?
This isn’t how power grids work. Whilst California imports a fair amount of its electricity, the above statement is overly simplistic.
Actually, it was my daughter who told me that. She had been a resident of Wyoming for many years.
It's clear that you know nothing about the U. S. Wyoming has a low population, and any large wind farm can produce a large amount of power during high winds. In Wyoming's case that means fifty mile an hour winds off the Rocky Mountains. A local grid connection could not handle that. A dedicated high tension line to somewhere was required. Wyoming didn't need the power. Casper is called Oil City. Guess why? A mile from my daughter's place Sinclair had a small refinery, which I saw with my own eyes. Before you criticize people do the research.
By the way, I'm an Electrical Engineer.
Actually, it was my daughter who told me that….
It's clear that you know nothing about the U. S. Wyoming has a low population… A local grid connection could not handle that. A dedicated high tension line to somewhere was required…. Before you criticize people do the research.
There’s people living in caves in Afghanistan who understand that Wyoming has a tiny population, and it should be obvious to anyone that a local grid can’t handle a 0.5GW windfarm. But let us not get bogged down with those, and your other, obfuscations.
Originally you claimed that “the [Rolling Hills] power goes to California (L.A)”… As if some special HT line joined the two places.
When I read that (instead of relying on some air-headed comment from my own daughter) I searched for a map of the US power grid. I think this counts as “doing the research”, but I suspect that, for obvious reasons, you aren’t really in a position to judge.
It seems Rolling Hills has five HT interconnects, which spread the power all over the Western and Midwestern US. Some of it - or more accurately - what is left after passing through Salt Lake City, San Francisco, and Las Vegas, eventually arrives in Los Angeles.
Quite different from your claims.
I must say, I’m surprised this needs explaining to an electrical engineer. Especially one who emphasises the necessity of “doing the research”…
So, you discovered that the national grid involves high tension lines. Wunderbar! But you got lost in the woods. The original posting was about line losses. You just showed that wind power has the same issues with line losses as any other major source of electric power. If you want to know who gets the power produced follow the money. Somebody paid for that wind farm. They're reaping the benefits.
All primary energy has losses. E.g. Shipping oil --> to cars gasoline involves up to 50% losses if you count in all production/transportation costs.
Overall electricity has the least losses despite these can also grow up to 30% depending on mix.
The big difference is:: Wind produces almost environmental damage same for Hydro or solar after the production of the generation units. Cars always produce micro particles from the tires/road or noise from tires, cabin. So here nothing changes.
Same old same old 'we reap what we sow' nothing changes indeed and again whatever the source guaranteed energy is only for the rich.
We pay less than we used to? Texas is a leading state on windpower installations. From 2015 installed capacity doubled from 17GW to 36GW and In that same period prices increased dramatically from 9.5 cents to 14 cents per kWh, but somehow you say we are paying less? I have told you many times you are right that wind power is cheap. Cheap as in limited value. And the more wind you install, the higher the prices of retail electricity rise. You just hand wave away the cost of intermittency and the value of dispatchability. The data clearly supports my hypothesis and while one state doesn’t make a conclusive argument at least in the case of Texas your claims are false. I’d be surprised if you could find one jurisdiction where the increase in cheap wind power resulted in lower RETAIL prices. Wholesale prices are cost, retail prices are value.
The inefficiencies i mention are plainly visible if you care to open your eyes
Invisible inefficiencies. We pay less than we used to, and power companies charge less for wind and solar. In Texas they charge nothing for wind at night. The power companies are not losing money. So where do these inefficiencies show up? What part of the economy? If consumers and power companies are not paying for them, who is? Why are the power companies retiring coal and other sources, and rapidly increasing wind and solar?
It seems you think you know much more about energy costs than power company experts do. You think you have found inefficiencies that no economist or energy expert sees. You are suffering the Dunning Kruger effect.
Sounds like the system just cost what ever they feel like ..
not like we can do without for long.
I have told you many times you are right that wind power is cheap. Cheap as in limited value.
Cheap as in free. Zero cost. How much cheaper do you want it? This is mainly because of wind.
"Green energy" comes in many forms, Good article explaining why the culprit in green energy raising consumer electricity rates is solar and wind:
Here is an excerpt:
Some readers suggested that the contribution of solar and wind to high electricity prices was a legacy of older, more expensive projects, and implied that rising solar and wind penetrations would decline in the future.
This thinking requires ignoring both physics and economics. The value of solar and wind decline in economic value as they become larger shares of the electricity grid for physical reasons. They produce too much energy when societies don’t need it and not enough energy when they do.
This problem is temporarily fixed through short-term (but still expensive) work-arounds — like California and Germany paying their neighbors to take their excess electricity.
But the more solar and wind are added, the problem is worsened, not improved, which is why the economic value of solar and wind decline as they become a larger part of the grid.
