LENR vs Solar/Wind, and emerging Green Technologies.

  • What you say looks true, but that is not what theyr taught me as high power electronic engineer...

    The point is that AC gives you a chance to escape 50 times a seconde (bounce, flee, react). the danger with DC is you get stuck forever...

    Maybe is it a wrong point, it is just what they taught me, and they had experience.

    (the kind of guy who pour water every day on their earth pole to remember about safety)


    What they taught me in my EE circuits class and lab, was that when working around high voltage (AC or DC), always keep your left hand in your pocket, and NEVER, EVER under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE take it out. It was, and is, good advice.

    ;)


    The lab had thick rubber insulating mats. It is virtually impossible to get electrocuted in a lab like this if you work single handedly (preferably with your right hand, for reasons stated above). Grabbing a 1000VAC wire with one hand will have no effect.


    Tesla had a lot of fun entertaining people with high voltage stunts like this (but please don't try this at home, folks).


    But seriously, 50VDC is essentially harmless, while 100VAC can definitely stop your heart. Permanently.

  • I thought AC leads to higher currents because of the capacitance of the human body?


    No, the human body has only a few hundred pico-Farads of capacitance, so electrically 60 Hz is essentially no different than DC regarding any frequency response effects. The issue really is fibrillation of the heart. 60 Hz is simultaneously incredibly low frequency from a RLC (resistance/inductance/capacitance) standpoint, and a very high frequency from a neurochemical/neuromuscular standpoint. Rapid alternating currents (as in 50-60 Hz) passing over your heart will stop it, and this has nothing to do with body capacitance.


    In fact, a serious burn from high voltage (AC or DC) is readily survivable if it involves only an extremity, for example.


    An arrested heart, however, tends to be a more serious health problem.

  • The new EU 'supergrid' will be DC

    Alan?


    Starting at what voltage?

    From where to where?


    Eventually it will have to be inverted to ac,

    On the high voltage side of transformers so

    You still get 230/115 (US), delivered to your home or business.

    If not, every piece of electrical gear in your house would have to be changed

    run on dc.


    I need to be educated on how this would ever be considered,

    And am waiting eagerly for your response,

    Clearly, I am missing something here.

  • https://www.pwc.co.uk/assets/p…renewable-electricity.pdf



    Tomorrow’s vision: A pan-European, cross-Mediterranean SuperSmart Grid.


    A pan-European, cross-Mediterranean SuperSmart Grid is the key enabling development for our vision of 100%
    renewable electricity generation in Europe and North Africa by 2050. The unification of the European and North
    African markets would require an overlay HVDC Super Grid, a strongly reinforced HVAC grid and the area-wide
    introduction of Smart technologies and Smart Grids. All bottlenecks at artificial obstacles, such as national or
    legislative borders, would need to be removed. In particular, the North African HVAC grids and interconnections
    would need to be expanded and all North African off-grid electrification schemes integrated into the synchronous
    EU-NA system (except UK and Ireland, which would still only be connected to the continent via HVDC cables). In
    2050, almost all citizens in the entire European-North African area would be connected to the HVAC transmission
    grid.
    The HVDC grid is a key to a fully renewable power supply11. It has two primary tasks: to transport renewable
    electricity from production sites in North Africa and peripheral regions of Europe to load centres and to transport
    electricity away from areas of momentary excess supply to areas with momentary short supply. The HVDC grid
    thus plays an important role in stabilising the underlying HVAC transmission system.
    In our 2050 vision, the only imports into the European power system would be the renewable power imports from
    North Africa to Europe (about 750 TWh/a) which would be enabled by a large number of separate crossMediterranean
    HVDC links. These lines would need to be fully integrated into the overlay grid, which increases
    both the redundancy of export/import trading lines and the security of supply in the entire system. The reliability of
    the system would be at least what it is in Europe today26. The feed-in points for electricity imports into the HVAC
    system would be the same as the feed-in points from the general HVDC grid and the final destination of the
    imported electricity will, just as for domestic European electricity, depend on the production and loads in other parts
    of the system.


    This doc is from 2010. Things have moved on since then quite a lot. ABB are lead research and development contractors AFAIK.

  • I read that the conversion would waste a lot of power with today's transformers. A lot of electricity nowadays ends up being converted to DC, in things like computers. Large data centers need lots of DC. See:


    https://gigaom.com/2012/01/13/…or-data-centers-dc-power/

    Jed,


    Think about it for a minute.

    Every single piece of electrical equipment in your home or business, every single thing that you plug into a wall runs on ac power,

    Even your computer.


    So, now if your power company suddenly decides they want to generate, transmit and distribute dc to your home/business you have to either replace everything, OR,

    Install a dc to ac inverter in front of every single outlet in your home.

    This will never happen amigo.


    They can generate dc, BUT eventually, before some transformer somewhere,

    dc will have to be inverted to ac for industrial, commercial and residential use.


    Edison may have been right, but we have gone to far down that road to turn back now.


    As for your data center suggestion, you have a very limited view.

    I have been involved in 100’s of data centers for a multinational electric engineering firm and the overwhelming majority of them have been ac powered.

    They can certainly bring dc into the white space for rack power, but not for chillers,

    air handlers, cooling towers, condensers etc,.


    Dc has its use no doubt, but not in an industrialized civilization like we live in now.

  • No one suggested it will happen anytime soon. However, data centers are already buy DC capacity, or they generate it directly. That may be more popular as HVDC distribution becomes more widespread. Arthur Clarke was talking about the future when houses generate their own electricity with cold fusion. He suggested it would make more sense to generate DC. By the time this happens, machines will be available for it. Computers and other digital equipment could easily be adapted. Power supplies for portable computers already work seamlessly with European, U.S. and Japanese power.


    In my book, I discuss how the demand for electricity is likely to fall with cold fusion, with direct heat used instead for many applications such as refrigeration or clothes drying.

  • No one suggested it will happen anytime soon. However, data centers are already buy DC capacity, or they generate it directly. That may be more popular as HVDC distribution becomes more widespread. Arthur Clarke was talking about the future when houses generate their own electricity with cold fusion. He suggested it would make more sense to generate DC. By the time this happens, machines will be available for it. Computers and other digital equipment could easily be adapted. Power supplies for portable computers already work seamlessly with European, U.S. and Japanese power.


    In my book, I discuss how the demand for electricity is likely to fall with cold fusion, with direct heat used instead for many applications such as refrigeration or clothes drying.

    Jed,


    Sure, It may be possible “IF” cold fusion is ever brought to the same functional safe reliable and inexpensive status as your existing power supplier.


    As a lifetime engineer in the energy field,

    I certainly have my doubts.


    Let’s agree to disagree and revisit this in 2025

  • No one suggested it will happen anytime soon. However, data centers are already buy DC capacity, or they generate it directly. That may be more popular as HVDC distribution becomes more widespread. Arthur Clarke was talking about the future when houses generate their own electricity with cold fusion. He suggested it would make more sense to generate DC. By the time this happens, machines will be available for it. Computers and other digital equipment could easily be adapted. Power supplies for portable computers already work seamlessly with European, U.S. and Japanese power.


    In my book, I discuss how the demand for electricity is likely to fall with cold fusion, with direct heat used instead for many applications such as refrigeration or clothes drying.

    Jed,


    Again, your data center example is very limited.

    Data centers have triple redundancy for computers, grid power, back up generators and batteries, all tied to the same distribution center.

    A data center simply cannot buy dc power, run it a dedicated distribution system,

    Without having gen and battery back up

    Connected to the same distribution system.

    Typically the gens back up the white space chiller load, which is huge, staggeringly huge

    So your dc power source would have to drive them also, but only after you find a supplier that manufactures dc powered chillers and condensers.


    The idea has merit, but once costs and application engineering expertise are brought into the discussion, dc power for commercial/industrial uses dies a quick death.

  • Sure, It may be possible “IF” cold fusion is ever brought to the same functional safe reliable and inexpensive status as your existing power supplier.

    Yes. Obviously, if cold fusion is not perfected, this will not happen. That goes without saying. Meaning, it is so obvious, and everyone here knows it so well, you didn't even need to say it. Why bother? Do you think I am unaware of the technical challenges that prevent the use of cold fusion today? Do you imagine you are telling the audience here something it does not know?


    If cold fusion can be controlled it is likely to be about 10 times cheaper than any other source of energy, and ultimately thousands of times cheaper. See:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusionb.pdf


    The idea has merit, but once costs and application engineering expertise are brought into the discussion, dc power for commercial/industrial uses dies a quick death.

    Spoken like a person stuck in the eternal present. You should realize that conditions change; technology changes, and that which would die a quick death in one era -- and that which is flat out impossible -- is commercially unstoppable in the next. See, for example, electricity, automobiles, air transport, computers and the internet.


    You have to understand, Clarke was talking about the future, not the present. He thought a lot about the future, as do I. See:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJreviewofpr.pdf


    (He thought about the past, as well, as you see from the photo of his pet Tyrannosaurus rex.)

  • Alainco,


    It’s funny how people read something that aligns with their existing way of understanding and then what they read becomes a fact.

    When upon further review, what they read is not true.

    Many here fall into this trap, Jed, Adrian, Alan, etc.

  • Jed,


    Tomorrow morning, Cold Fusion is a proven source of safe, reliable, inexpensive and sustainable energy.

    Now every single business and homeowner can generate whatever dc power and energy supply they require.

    This does NOT change the fact that every single device, not some, not most, but ALL,

    existing Electrical devices all run on ac.

    I can envision no circumstances, NONE, that anyone anywhere would replace ALL of these devices simply to use locally generated dc power. It would be an incredibly expensive waste of money, time and resources.


    Contact Mr Clark and you two get together and build a case to educate this lifetime engineer on how this comes to be.


    And please allow I am aware that Mr. Clarke is no longer with us.

  • Tomorrow morning, Cold Fusion is a proven source of safe, reliable, inexpensive and sustainable energy.

    Now every single business and homeowner can generate whatever dc power and energy supply they require.

    This does NOT change the fact that every single device, not some, not most, but ALL,

    existing Electrical devices all run on ac.

    Many people have made a similar argument regarding automobiles. They say that even if we have cars that run on cold fusion, we cannot afford to replace all cars, so we will continue to need gasoline indefinitely. They overlook the fact that cars wear out and must be replaced. U.S. automobiles nowadays last about 11 years. Very few last for 20 years. So, if we begin manufacturing most cars with cold fusion, roughly 25 years later nearly all of the cars on the road will be powered by cold fusion. For details, see:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthefuturem.pdf


    It is a little easier to see how this works with cars rather than DC powered home appliances, but the same principles apply. Appliances wear out and have to be replaced over 20 years or so. As they are replaced, improved models are introduced. That is why gas-fired furnaces, air conditioners and refrigerators are so much more efficient than they used to be. It isn't as if everyone simultaneously threw out their old refrigerators. It was a gradual process. Along the same lines, if cold fusion generators become available, it will not be difficult to produce a DC model, and along with that manufacturers will begin introducing DC-powered televisions, washing machines and so on.


    People who buy DC generators but who keep some old AC powered equipment will need DC to AC inverters, such as the one I use to keep the lights during power failures, from my car battery. A $100 inverter produces 2 kW which is enough for my refrigerator and most other appliances in my house. So, if I get at DC generator and I have 3 legacy appliances, I will pay $300 extra. I pay about that much already because I have Japanese equipment that needs transformers.


    The point is, if you have DC power, it costs little to keep a few AC legacy machines with inverters. My inverter could easily fit behind the fridge or washing machine. You can buy a small inverter suitable for a computer or TV that plugs into your automobile dashboard. It costs $5 or $10. It is no bigger than an AC transformer for a laptop, or an AC to USB power supply:


    https://www.amazon.com/KAFEEK-…r-Converter/dp/B00CAMJ76E


    I doubt many inverters will be needed because people will install most cold fusion generators with new construction, when they buy new appliances, or during remodeling. Or they will install a generator when the heating and air conditioning (or heat pump) wears out, replacing both with a co-generator which takes up about the same space and also provides free electricity. When they do that, they will probably go ahead and replace the fridge and washing machine rather than leaving AC legacy equipment, because those machines will also be old, no longer manufactured, and difficult to find parts for or get repaired.


    And please allow I am aware that Mr. Clarke is no longer with us.

    Sir Arthur to you. But who said he was still alive? Not me.

  • Jed,

    I’m not “many people” I’m Roseland67.

    I said nothing of automobiles,

    iEC’s waste 80+% of the energy put into them. The cars will be powered by electricity, (Battery’s) which are 90+% efficient. If you have an LENR dc generator in your car to charge battery’s, all the better,

    great idea, I’m all for it.


    “Appliances wear out” agreed, but the electrical infrastructure in your home/business lasts a lifetime and longer.

    Circuit breakers, fuses, switchgear, bus plugs, wire, outlets, just to name a would have to be removed and replaced to use dc.

    It just won’t happen amigo.

    Would you replace every pieces of electrical infrastructure in your home just to use dc power? No, of course you wouldn’t.


    But you might disconnect from your utility, install a cold fusion dc generator in your yard/business, add an inverter and a transformer with a 230/115 tap and plug it into your house/business and everything inside stays exactly the same,

    This is reasonable and very possible to me and how I believe it will be implemented once LENR can be adapted to electrical generation.


  • With an inverter, much like a solar installation

    Exactly, an inverter to change dc to ac,

    So your house business can keep existing infrastructure intact, I agree.


    However, your house/business is NOT running on dc, it is running on ac, the same as it always has, the generator is now just dc

    But it still has to be inverted and transformered to use in the existing infrastructure.

  • Exactly, an inverter to change dc to ac,

    So your house business can keep existing infrastructure intact, I agree.


    However, your house/business is NOT running on dc, it is running on ac, the same as it always has, the generator is now just dc

    But it still has to be inverted and transformered to use in the existing infrastructure.

    I would expect that some DC storage will be used with the home LENR generator systems and at first people will remain on the grid for some time for their peak household demand requirements and seasonal peaks. However, eventually air conditioning, heating, cooking and other items will be given LENR "boosts" to lower that peak demand. If you can get 20:1 then there will be a lot of conversion over for things that use heat.

  • I’m not “many people” I’m Roseland67.

    Yes, you are many people. I assume you include at least Roseland 1 through 66. Like Whitman, you are large and contain multitudes. Or the Borg. Or a hive of some sort. Or you have worms, as Mark Twain put it.


    I said nothing of automobiles,

    Ah, but I wrote a paper about them, which I used to illustrate the point.


    “Appliances wear out” agreed, but the electrical infrastructure in your home/business lasts a lifetime and longer.

    Circuit breakers, fuses, switchgear, bus plugs, wire, outlets, just to name a would have to be removed and replaced to use dc.

    It just won’t happen amigo.

    People build new houses, and as it happens, I have had two houses rewired.


    But you might disconnect from your utility, install a cold fusion dc generator in your yard/business, add an inverter

    After cold fusion has been around for a few decades, there will be no utility. The power companies cannot compete with small cold fusion generators, as I showed in my book and elsewhere. They will go out of business as surely as North Atlantic ocean liners did trying to compete with airplanes.

  • However, eventually air conditioning, heating, cooking and other items will be given LENR "boosts" to lower that peak demand.

    All cooking, heating and refrigeration can be done with thermal power. Directly with cold fusion, in other words. No electricity is needed, except for the blowers, which could be cold-fusion thermoelectric. Gas fired refrigerators have been made since the 1930s, and they are still being sold. See:


    https://www.lehmans.com/product/dometic-gas-refrigerators/


    They are pricey, but they used to cost the same as electric models, and they would be cheaper if the market was bigger.


    In my book and elsewhere I predicted that even home generators will eventually be supplanted by individual thermoelectric power supplies. There will be no distribution of electricity in the house at all. There may not even be control wires. I suppose every light fixture could be on wifi.

  • I would expect that some DC storage will be used with the home LENR generator systems and at first people will remain on the grid for some time for their peak household demand requirements and seasonal peaks.

    I don't think so. This is like predicting that I will buy a small hot water heater, and if I need more hot water from time to time I will borrow it from my neighbor with a hose. What I mean is, if you are going to install a cold fusion generator, you might as well get one that is large enough for all your needs, just as today you buy a water heater or an air conditioner that is large enough for your needs. It would cost you a lot of extra money to have power company service on stand-by mode only. Most power companies charge a minimum whether you use power or not, and after cold fusion becomes widespread, they all will. That is what is happening in Hawaii, where solar PV electricity is taking a large share of power company business away, and power companies are in deep trouble.


    The demand for electricity will fall with cold fusion, because many applications work just as well with thermal energy directly (as I mentioned above). Those are mainly high power applications. I discussed this in my book, and illustrated it with examples and statistics.


    When cold fusion generators are first developed, I predict that people who have a critical need for power, such as patients who need it for medical devices, will buy tandem units that switch over every 24 hours. This will be more reliable than power company electricity. I know some patients like that. They have back-up generators. A tandem generator would be its own backup.

  • I hope it is clear that inverters and rectifiers have long been involved at the high voltage end of the process as well. Solid state inverters, and rectifiers have been used in high voltage DC power "interties" in Europe and in the US since the 1970s. Before solid state inverters there were large "ignitrons" (large mercury containing "tubes") that were characteristic of the first US HVDC links developed in the 1960s. For long distance electric power transmission, DC is really economically indispensible, since line reactivity makes AC impractically inefficient even at a thousand kilometers.

  • Circuit breakers, fuses, switchgear, bus plugs, wire, outlets, just to name a would have to be removed and replaced to use dc.

    House wiring works just as well with DC as AC. The circuit breakers will not work but they are not expensive, and they are easy to replace. The meter will not work, but you don't need a meter with cold fusion.


    It just won’t happen amigo.

    It just will happen, and always has. It must happen. House wiring does not last forever. As I mentioned, my brother in law and I have rewired two houses, in extensive remodeling. Old houses. Very old.


    A house on my block that had a fire was rewired top to bottom when it was repaired. All the drywall stripped out. I think the fire was caused by a car, but the builder took no chances and replaced every wire and receptacle, including the ones far from the fire.