LENR vs Solar/Wind, and emerging Green Technologies.

Quote from Roseland67

Sure, It may be possible “IF” cold fusion is ever brought to the same functional safe reliable and inexpensive status as your existing power supplier.

Yes. Obviously, if cold fusion is not perfected, this will not happen. That goes without saying. Meaning, it is so obvious, and everyone here knows it so well, you didn't even need to say it. Why bother? Do you think I am unaware of the technical challenges that prevent the use of cold fusion today? Do you imagine you are telling the audience here something it does not know?

If cold fusion can be controlled it is likely to be about 10 times cheaper than any other source of energy, and ultimately thousands of times cheaper. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusionb.pdf

Quote from Roseland67

The idea has merit, but once costs and application engineering expertise are brought into the discussion, dc power for commercial/industrial uses dies a quick death.

Spoken like a person stuck in the eternal present. You should realize that conditions change; technology changes, and that which would die a quick death in one era -- and that which is flat out impossible -- is commercially unstoppable in the next. See, for example, electricity, automobiles, air transport, computers and the internet.

You have to understand, Clarke was talking about the future, not the present. He thought a lot about the future, as do I. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJreviewofpr.pdf

(He thought about the past, as well, as you see from the photo of his pet Tyrannosaurus rex.)

Quote from AlainCo

In fact I've been taught the revers during my electrotechnic (high power electronic) courses.

at same voltage, DC kills for sure while AC gives a chance to escape. DC make you stuck to the wire you touch.

50V DC is deadly more than 100V AC.

anyway beside a danger ratio of that amount , what count is current, which depends on voltage and conductivity (for humans, wetness of skin).

the fear came from high tension that AC allows with transformers. Today with IGBT and alike, you can have good control on DC to produce Very high voltage DC (useful to transfer power accross channels or from offshore power plants).

It is funny how myth stays despite practice.

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Alainco,

It’s funny how people read something that aligns with their existing way of understanding and then what they read becomes a fact.

When upon further review, what they read is not true.

Many here fall into this trap, Jed, Adrian, Alan, etc.

Quote from JedRothwell

Yes. Obviously, if cold fusion is not perfected, this will not happen. That goes without saying. Meaning, it is so obvious, and everyone here knows it so well, you didn't even need to say it. Why bother? Do you think I am unaware of the technical challenges that prevent the use of cold fusion today? Do you imagine you are telling the audience here something it does not know?

If cold fusion can be controlled it is likely to be about 10 times cheaper than any other source of energy, and ultimately thousands of times cheaper. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusionb.pdf

Spoken like a person stuck in the eternal present. You should realize that conditions change; technology changes, and that which would die a quick death in one era -- and that which is flat out impossible -- is commercially unstoppable in the next. See, for example, electricity, automobiles, air transport, computers and the internet.

You have to understand, Clarke was talking about the future, not the present. He thought a lot about the future, as do I. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJreviewofpr.pdf

(He thought about the past, as well, as you see from the photo of his pet Tyrannosaurus rex.)

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Jed,

Tomorrow morning, Cold Fusion is a proven source of safe, reliable, inexpensive and sustainable energy.

Now every single business and homeowner can generate whatever dc power and energy supply they require.

This does NOT change the fact that every single device, not some, not most, but ALL,

existing Electrical devices all run on ac.

I can envision no circumstances, NONE, that anyone anywhere would replace ALL of these devices simply to use locally generated dc power. It would be an incredibly expensive waste of money, time and resources.

Contact Mr Clark and you two get together and build a case to educate this lifetime engineer on how this comes to be.

And please allow I am aware that Mr. Clarke is no longer with us.

Quote from Roseland67

Tomorrow morning, Cold Fusion is a proven source of safe, reliable, inexpensive and sustainable energy.

Now every single business and homeowner can generate whatever dc power and energy supply they require.

This does NOT change the fact that every single device, not some, not most, but ALL,

existing Electrical devices all run on ac.

Many people have made a similar argument regarding automobiles. They say that even if we have cars that run on cold fusion, we cannot afford to replace all cars, so we will continue to need gasoline indefinitely. They overlook the fact that cars wear out and must be replaced. U.S. automobiles nowadays last about 11 years. Very few last for 20 years. So, if we begin manufacturing most cars with cold fusion, roughly 25 years later nearly all of the cars on the road will be powered by cold fusion. For details, see:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthefuturem.pdf

It is a little easier to see how this works with cars rather than DC powered home appliances, but the same principles apply. Appliances wear out and have to be replaced over 20 years or so. As they are replaced, improved models are introduced. That is why gas-fired furnaces, air conditioners and refrigerators are so much more efficient than they used to be. It isn't as if everyone simultaneously threw out their old refrigerators. It was a gradual process. Along the same lines, if cold fusion generators become available, it will not be difficult to produce a DC model, and along with that manufacturers will begin introducing DC-powered televisions, washing machines and so on.

People who buy DC generators but who keep some old AC powered equipment will need DC to AC inverters, such as the one I use to keep the lights during power failures, from my car battery. A $100 inverter produces 2 kW which is enough for my refrigerator and most other appliances in my house. So, if I get at DC generator and I have 3 legacy appliances, I will pay $300 extra. I pay about that much already because I have Japanese equipment that needs transformers.

The point is, if you have DC power, it costs little to keep a few AC legacy machines with inverters. My inverter could easily fit behind the fridge or washing machine. You can buy a small inverter suitable for a computer or TV that plugs into your automobile dashboard. It costs $5 or $10. It is no bigger than an AC transformer for a laptop, or an AC to USB power supply:

https://www.amazon.com/KAFEEK-…r-Converter/dp/B00CAMJ76E

I doubt many inverters will be needed because people will install most cold fusion generators with new construction, when they buy new appliances, or during remodeling. Or they will install a generator when the heating and air conditioning (or heat pump) wears out, replacing both with a co-generator which takes up about the same space and also provides free electricity. When they do that, they will probably go ahead and replace the fridge and washing machine rather than leaving AC legacy equipment, because those machines will also be old, no longer manufactured, and difficult to find parts for or get repaired.

Quote from Roseland67

And please allow I am aware that Mr. Clarke is no longer with us.

Sir Arthur to you. But who said he was still alive? Not me.

Quote from Roseland67

And please allow I am aware that Mr. Clarke is no longer with us.

Roseland67 that sounds kind of morbid!

It makes me think of Mark Twains famous statement: "The rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated"

Thankfully, the spirit of Mr. Clarke (at least) is still with us.

JedRothwell: I'm assuming Roseland67 was referring to Tom, not Arthur.

Quote from Roseland67

Contact Mr Clark and you two get together and build a case to educate this lifetime engineer on how this comes to be.

With an inverter, much like a solar installation

Quote from JedRothwell

Many people have made a similar argument regarding automobiles. They say that even if we have cars that run on cold fusion, we cannot afford to replace all cars, so we will continue to need gasoline indefinitely. They overlook the fact that cars wear out and must be replaced. U.S. automobiles nowadays last about 11 years. Very few last for 20 years. So, if we begin manufacturing most cars with cold fusion, roughly 25 years later nearly all of the cars on the road will be powered by cold fusion. For details, see:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthefuturem.pdf

It is a little easier to see how this works with cars rather than DC powered home appliances, but the same principles apply. Appliances wear out and have to be replaced over 20 years or so. As they are replaced, improved models are introduced. That is why gas-fired furnaces, air conditioners and refrigerators are so much more efficient than they used to be. It isn't as if everyone simultaneously threw out their old refrigerators. It was a gradual process. Along the same lines, if cold fusion generators become available, it will not be difficult to produce a DC model, and along with that manufacturers will begin introducing DC-powered televisions, washing machines and so on.

People who buy DC generators but who keep some old AC powered equipment will need DC to AC inverters, such as the one I use to keep the lights during power failures, from my car battery. A $100 inverter produces 2 kW which is enough for my refrigerator and most other appliances in my house. So, if I get at DC generator and I have 3 legacy appliances, I will pay $300 extra. I pay about that much already because I have Japanese equipment that needs transformers.

The point is, if you have DC power, it costs little to keep a few AC legacy machines with inverters. My inverter could easily fit behind the fridge or washing machine. You can buy a small inverter suitable for a computer or TV that plugs into your automobile dashboard. It costs $5 or $10. It is no bigger than an AC transformer for a laptop, or an AC to USB power supply:

https://www.amazon.com/KAFEEK-…r-Converter/dp/B00CAMJ76E

I doubt many inverters will be needed because people will install most cold fusion generators with new construction, when they buy new appliances, or during remodeling. Or they will install a generator when the heating and air conditioning (or heat pump) wears out, replacing both with a co-generator which takes up about the same space and also provides free electricity. When they do that, they will probably go ahead and replace the fridge and washing machine rather than leaving AC legacy equipment, because those machines will also be old, no longer manufactured, and difficult to find parts for or get repaired.

Sir Arthur to you. But who said he was still alive? Not me.

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Jed,

I’m not “many people” I’m Roseland67.

I said nothing of automobiles,

iEC’s waste 80+% of the energy put into them. The cars will be powered by electricity, (Battery’s) which are 90+% efficient. If you have an LENR dc generator in your car to charge battery’s, all the better,

great idea, I’m all for it.

“Appliances wear out” agreed, but the electrical infrastructure in your home/business lasts a lifetime and longer.

Circuit breakers, fuses, switchgear, bus plugs, wire, outlets, just to name a would have to be removed and replaced to use dc.

It just won’t happen amigo.

Would you replace every pieces of electrical infrastructure in your home just to use dc power? No, of course you wouldn’t.

But you might disconnect from your utility, install a cold fusion dc generator in your yard/business, add an inverter and a transformer with a 230/115 tap and plug it into your house/business and everything inside stays exactly the same,

This is reasonable and very possible to me and how I believe it will be implemented once LENR can be adapted to electrical generation.

Quote from Zeus46

With an inverter, much like a solar installation

Exactly, an inverter to change dc to ac,

So your house business can keep existing infrastructure intact, I agree.

However, your house/business is NOT running on dc, it is running on ac, the same as it always has, the generator is now just dc

But it still has to be inverted and transformered to use in the existing infrastructure.

Quote from Roseland67

Exactly, an inverter to change dc to ac,

So your house business can keep existing infrastructure intact, I agree.

However, your house/business is NOT running on dc, it is running on ac, the same as it always has, the generator is now just dc

But it still has to be inverted and transformered to use in the existing infrastructure.

I would expect that some DC storage will be used with the home LENR generator systems and at first people will remain on the grid for some time for their peak household demand requirements and seasonal peaks. However, eventually air conditioning, heating, cooking and other items will be given LENR "boosts" to lower that peak demand. If you can get 20:1 then there will be a lot of conversion over for things that use heat.

Quote from Alan Smith

Probably we have had enough of the great AC/DC controversy by now. Back to pure Rossi, or I'll have you all electrocuted!

Maybe we can create a General Bickering and Arguing thread.

https://www.bing.com/videos/se…CC9749067B3AF&FORM=VDQVAP

Quote from Roseland67

I’m not “many people” I’m Roseland67.

Yes, you are many people. I assume you include at least Roseland 1 through 66. Like Whitman, you are large and contain multitudes. Or the Borg. Or a hive of some sort. Or you have worms, as Mark Twain put it.

Quote from Roseland67

I said nothing of automobiles,

Ah, but I wrote a paper about them, which I used to illustrate the point.

Quote from Roseland67

“Appliances wear out” agreed, but the electrical infrastructure in your home/business lasts a lifetime and longer.

Circuit breakers, fuses, switchgear, bus plugs, wire, outlets, just to name a would have to be removed and replaced to use dc.

It just won’t happen amigo.

People build new houses, and as it happens, I have had two houses rewired.

Quote from Roseland67

But you might disconnect from your utility, install a cold fusion dc generator in your yard/business, add an inverter

After cold fusion has been around for a few decades, there will be no utility. The power companies cannot compete with small cold fusion generators, as I showed in my book and elsewhere. They will go out of business as surely as North Atlantic ocean liners did trying to compete with airplanes.

Quote from oldguy

However, eventually air conditioning, heating, cooking and other items will be given LENR "boosts" to lower that peak demand.

All cooking, heating and refrigeration can be done with thermal power. Directly with cold fusion, in other words. No electricity is needed, except for the blowers, which could be cold-fusion thermoelectric. Gas fired refrigerators have been made since the 1930s, and they are still being sold. See:

https://www.lehmans.com/product/dometic-gas-refrigerators/

They are pricey, but they used to cost the same as electric models, and they would be cheaper if the market was bigger.

In my book and elsewhere I predicted that even home generators will eventually be supplanted by individual thermoelectric power supplies. There will be no distribution of electricity in the house at all. There may not even be control wires. I suppose every light fixture could be on wifi.

Quote from oldguy

I would expect that some DC storage will be used with the home LENR generator systems and at first people will remain on the grid for some time for their peak household demand requirements and seasonal peaks.

I don't think so. This is like predicting that I will buy a small hot water heater, and if I need more hot water from time to time I will borrow it from my neighbor with a hose. What I mean is, if you are going to install a cold fusion generator, you might as well get one that is large enough for all your needs, just as today you buy a water heater or an air conditioner that is large enough for your needs. It would cost you a lot of extra money to have power company service on stand-by mode only. Most power companies charge a minimum whether you use power or not, and after cold fusion becomes widespread, they all will. That is what is happening in Hawaii, where solar PV electricity is taking a large share of power company business away, and power companies are in deep trouble.

The demand for electricity will fall with cold fusion, because many applications work just as well with thermal energy directly (as I mentioned above). Those are mainly high power applications. I discussed this in my book, and illustrated it with examples and statistics.

When cold fusion generators are first developed, I predict that people who have a critical need for power, such as patients who need it for medical devices, will buy tandem units that switch over every 24 hours. This will be more reliable than power company electricity. I know some patients like that. They have back-up generators. A tandem generator would be its own backup.

I hope it is clear that inverters and rectifiers have long been involved at the high voltage end of the process as well. Solid state inverters, and rectifiers have been used in high voltage DC power "interties" in Europe and in the US since the 1970s. Before solid state inverters there were large "ignitrons" (large mercury containing "tubes") that were characteristic of the first US HVDC links developed in the 1960s. For long distance electric power transmission, DC is really economically indispensible, since line reactivity makes AC impractically inefficient even at a thousand kilometers.

Quote from Roseland67

Circuit breakers, fuses, switchgear, bus plugs, wire, outlets, just to name a would have to be removed and replaced to use dc.

House wiring works just as well with DC as AC. The circuit breakers will not work but they are not expensive, and they are easy to replace. The meter will not work, but you don't need a meter with cold fusion.

Quote from Roseland67

It just won’t happen amigo.

It just will happen, and always has. It must happen. House wiring does not last forever. As I mentioned, my brother in law and I have rewired two houses, in extensive remodeling. Old houses. Very old.

A house on my block that had a fire was rewired top to bottom when it was repaired. All the drywall stripped out. I think the fire was caused by a car, but the builder took no chances and replaced every wire and receptacle, including the ones far from the fire.

Quote from Max Nozin

I am wondering why can't new homes have 2 wirings - one for DC one for AC

You car can use DC. Many appliances all LED lights have DC motors cincd they are more efficient.

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