Where is the LENR goal line, and how best do we get there?

  • We agree that validated high energy particles from an experiment would prove nuclear reactions, and therefore reaction rates higher than expected (if from stable constituents and with low energies).


    In fact I'll go further, this is an expected first sign of any unusually high reaction rates: e.g. some enhanced shielding effect. Far more sensitive than excess heat.

    Yup. I agree. Plus I would add that after all this time, and after cold fusion experiments have produced ~100 W continuously for months, I think there is no chance that previous experiments produced high energy particles. Someone would have seen them.


    If this experiment is producing them, it must be fundamentally different from previous cold fusion experiments. I have no idea how or why.


    Previous experiments produced tritium (often) and neutrons (occasionally), which seem to be anti-correlated with heat. But as Uncle Martin said, heat is the principle signature of the reaction. Not particles. It sure would be nice if they were, because they are so easy to detect in small amounts, but they ain't.


    I find the discussions of "shielding effects" droll. Mind you, I don't know a thing about it, but it sounds like people are expecting Mother Nature to act like a hockey goalie, fending off one particle after another. "Gotta stop 'em! Can't let even one through!" Surely, whatever the mechanism is, it doesn't produce them in the first place. It wouldn't produce trillions of particles and then somehow stop them all.


    I presume that after we figure out how cold fusion works, people will say that most nuclear fusion does not produce particles. No particles will be considered normal; plasma fusion the exception.


    By coincidence people discovered high energy plasma fusion first, which does make particles, so they got the idea that fusion must always do this. If they had discovered cold fusion first, and plasma fusion later, they would have accidentally killed some grad students. Then they would spin their wheels trying and failing to explain where all those particles are coming from. The APS would be screeching that the experiments violate theory, and they are fraudulent and the researchers are lunatics because everyone knows fusion does not produce gamma rays!!! It is a law of nature!!


    But it needs to be validated, which Alan et al will have been able to do, or not do.

    Well, have they had enough time? The right equipment? (I wouldn't know.)


    If after this time they have not validated these "lovely gammas" they are most likely an artifact or extraneous to the experiment. The characteristics reported here seemed most likely artifactual or extraneous.

    Izzatso? I don't know a thing about gamma rays, so I can't judge.

  • Previous experiments produced tritium (often) and neutrons (occasionally), which seem to be anti-correlated with heat. But as Uncle Martin said, heat is the principle signature of the reaction. Not particles. It sure would be nice if they were, because they are so easy to detect in small amounts, but they ain't.

    I mean it would be nice from the scientific point of view. It would convince people the effect is real, and help with theories. It would not be nice for technology or safety. It would mean cold fusion devices must be shielded. I hope theorists eventually prove that cold fusion does not produce gamma rays, and that it cannot do this. Nature is not playing Hockey Goalie.


    For that reason, I sort of hope that Smith and George were wrong about those gamma rays. But of course that does not mean they were wrong. It just means I hope they did not discover a potential hazard. My hopes have no bearing on what is true!

  • If this experiment is producing them, it must be fundamentally different from previous cold fusion experiments.

    The gammas were initially billed as controllable (by reactor on or off) and replicable.


    JedRothwell : The experiment is not producing them it is kind of detecting/measuring them.


    THHuxleynew : The gammas are controllable (by reactor on or off) the particle signal is (was) on top of these gammas! It was just a great feeling to get suddenly a very high COP.


    But: .. (by reactor on or off) .. The reaction is not dead after power off. This may take days or even weeks after an active phase. That's what (new) physics tells.

  • : The experiment is not producing them it is kind of detecting/measuring them.

    I don't understand what you mean by that. I meant that Smith and George reported they thought the cell is producing gamma rays. If it is, this cold fusion experiment is unique as far as I know. No other cold fusion cell has produced abundant gamma rays on demand.


    Some cells have produced a few, but only slightly above background, and not controllable. I think most people conclude these were not coming from the experiment.


    Here is a well-known example:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/PassellTOradiationd.pdf

  • JedRothwell

    This is my understanding:

    • The reactor when turned on produces an elevated gamma emission baseline, say 2-3x background.
    • When the reactor is turned off it takes a while (days to weeks) for the baseline to return to background.
      • This slow behavior is controllable and reproducible.
    • At some point there was a spontaneous periodic gamma burst signal from the reactor that was apparently induced by particles of cosmic origin.
      • Therefore in a way the reactor was acting as a detector for such particles.
      • This behavior was not controllable.
  • This guy has a relatively bold claim. Immediately, my focus would be gamma rays. Bring your own Geiger counter and measure. That's how you put it through the goal posts.



  • The reactor when turned on produces an elevated gamma emission baseline, say 2-3x background.
    When the reactor is turned off it takes a while (days to weeks) for the baseline to return to background.

    This slow behavior is controllable and reproducible. . . .

    Alan Smith confirms this is the claim. That is quite different from any other cold fusion claim that I am aware of. That doesn't mean it is wrong, but it does mean it will have to independently replicated before I have confidence it is true. A "me too" claim that closely resembles previous ones, such as heat from Pd-D electrolysis, is more readily believable, in my opinion.

  • can said.'When the reactor is turned off it takes a while (days to weeks) for the baseline to return to background.'


    This is probably not correct in all cases, but we have seen this. ETA- Just this morning in fact. Tube at room temperature persistently 20% above background and the controls (only 3) nearby.


    That is pretty impressive except that 20% above background is so marginal.


    I'm still unclear about the controllability. For example, if you switch the tube on/off and you then get consistent higher/lower gamma counts, that is interesting, and what I'd call controllable.


    Otherwise, if switching on/off does not give consistent changes, I'd say it is not controllable and while positing a reaction that continues is a possible solution so are other options... Non-controllable opens up a much wider class of extraneous sources, and makes linking the gammas to a putative reaction less clear.

  • Indeed it is. Switching on by applying heat gives consistent changes in gammas in good fuel tubes, switching off is sometimes more hit and miss.

    Do I understand correctly that you are once again detecting gamma rays? Good for you! (Except, as I said, I hope they do not become a hazard.)


    I have not been following the discussion, but weeks ago you said they faded away. Now they are back. Right?

    • Official Post

    JedRothwell


    The very first fuel tube is still active, at a lower but still measurable level. That one dates back to May but still showed signs of life when re-heated. New experiments are just beginning, and once again we see gammas, an excursion well above background (if I told you how much above THH wouldn't believe me anyway). But these are not at dangerous levels by any means, since they are only a signature of LENR, not the source of XSH.

  • Go to the atom-ecology thread. Then you will notice that gamma rays are measured at high level above background.

    Any time that anyone has gamma rays, even only slightly above marginal, they should invite a ton of people to come over and take Geiger counter measurements. Eventually the setup would be replicated and the practice of inviting others to take gamma measurements should be repeated. That practice is where it becomes precisely "Where the LENR goal line is". And especially if you calibrate with a known gamma ray producing device.