The Scientific Discussion of New Ideas

Am I missing something here? In this SAFIRE project they are attempting to replicate conditions on the SUN, firing up high energy plasmas. Brilliant plasma research. How do they reckon on LENR when they are studying hydrogen fusion at several million degrees K? Surely this is simple High Energy Nuclear Reaction phenomena AKA hot fusion, and so they have no need of Li, nano-wells (cracks), magnetic acceleration or sparks etc. But like all other hot fusion projects the energy in is still much greater than energy out. Bacteria/viruses have been able to harness just about every other biochemical/physical reaction in nature (including interstellar travel on asteroids) so why not LENR?

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Quote from Dr Richard

Am I missing something here? In this SAFIRE project they are attempting to replicate conditions on the SUN, firing up high energy plasmas. Brilliant plasma research. How do they reckon on LENR when they are studying hydrogen fusion at several million degrees K? Surely this is simple High Energy Nuclear Reaction phenomena AKA hot fusion, and so they have no need of Li, nano-wells (cracks), magnetic acceleration or sparks etc. But like all other hot fusion projects the energy in is still much greater than energy out. Bacteria/viruses have been able to harness just about every other biochemical/physical reaction in nature (including interstellar travel on asteroids) so why not LENR?

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Am I missing something here?

Yes you are, The temperature of SAFIRE double layer plasma is about 7.5 ev or 80,000C. The input drive voltage is just a few 100 volts. The power consumed is just a few hundred watts. SAFIRE is seeing both transmutation and proton proton fusion. The only thing that SAFIRE uses to produce LENR is hydrogen and a flow of a very small amount of electrical current.

The telling factor that counters your hot fusion assumption is that there is no neutrons or gamma radiation detected. If fact, no radiation of any kind except heat and a small amount of light is detected.

I don't know where you are getting your figures from, p57 of the Safire disclosure quotes an upper figure of 3 million degrees for the plasma ring displayed - I don't know why they find the vaporized tungsten so surprising at these sort of temperatures. I find the written article and the video very sensationalist as if it's sole purpose is to attract unwitting investors. I picked up several errors in terms of basic physics and further they say clearly they 'don't know at the present time' whether gamma or X-rays are released by these plasmas'. So they havn't [ooked for neutrons either. I suppose. Maybe they are trying to enter the LENR field because its become trendy or maybe their funding is drying up/its a tough world/like their mainstream nuclear hardcore physicists are demanding concrete results/hardcore refereed research papers to continue funding?

Regardless of all this are you suggesting we all create mini-Safires to investigate LENR as this is the only approach likely to work? ie abandon the electrolytic and reactor approaches?

Quote from Dr Richard

I don't know where you are getting your figures from, p57 of the Safire disclosure quotes an upper figure of 3 million degrees for the plasma ring displayed - I don't know why they find the vaporized tungsten so surprising at these sort of temperatures. I find the written article and the video very sensationalist as if it's sole purpose is to attract unwitting investors. I picked up several errors in terms of basic physics and further they say clearly they 'don't know at the present time' whether gamma or X-rays are released by these plasmas'. So they havn't [ooked for neutrons either. I suppose. Maybe they are trying to enter the LENR field because its become trendy or maybe their funding is drying up/its a tough world/like their mainstream nuclear hardcore physicists are demanding concrete results/hardcore refereed research papers to continue funding?

Regardless of all this are you suggesting we all create mini-Safires to investigate LENR as this is the only approach likely to work? ie abandon the electrolytic and reactor approaches?

81,000 degrees comes from this section of the video

OK lets compromise and I must apologise for that remark about being sensationalist-everybody has to present their work like this these days to obtain funding I suppose. Perhaps there is some high temperature fusion going on in the plasma around the anode, but I agree it must be good old LENR in the cathode! Maybe the effect can be enhanced by applying Wyttenbach's proposition to the cathode?

Whoops-I assumed the transmutation data came from the cathode, but in fact came from an anode spot and the tungsten probe (which I suppose was at ground or at the cathode potential). They have not analysed the large surrounding cathode area-but possibly is similar to the probe data.

Quote from Shane D.

DR,

Safire has been disappointing. After making that eye catching presentation, they started playing coy. They were at ICCF21, but according to BG, they were cordial, but did not engage in any meaningful exchange of ideas. Shortly after that, they attended another LENR related conference (forget where). Hope was they would open up and we would get some feedback, but nothing.

Like everything in the field, their actions could mean a number of different things, from investors getting involved, to they have nothing.

The SAFIRE scientists could just be behaving the way scientists behave. Scientists don't release results until the results are certain and totally explainable. When scientists are dealing with LENR, they treat it like handling a cobra.

Quote from axil

“Scientists don't release results until the results are certain and totally explainable.”

Rossi did, a boatload of them.

They're probably just being careful - their setup has some similarities to the old Farnsworth-Hirsch fusors, and the later polywell systems which nearly cracked the whole fusion issue before nuclear physicists started using magnetic confinement of plasmas resulting in the wasted massive spending on tokamaks and ITER. Could be the Safire crew have made quite a ground-breaking discovery in not attepting to contain the plasma (as they say working with rather than against nature). Do they have a self-confining plasma the details of which are about to be published in Nature? They havn't published much of the details, just that the alternating plasma rings alternate in positive and negative polarities {like layers of an onion} and propose some unknown 'force-field'. I think this is all quite remarkable and needs modelling mathematically to work out what's happening. Are these alternating rings of electrons and protons maybe held together by Unruh (or Hawking) radiation according to the new Quantised Inertia hypothesis of Mike McCulloch? (this radiation has been proposed to hold the galaxies together removing the necessity for dark matter-which nobody has found any evidence for anyway). A possible unification of hot plasma fusion and LENR could make all the other hot fusion projects redundant- why not start replicating this Safire system, its design is quite simple, with the aim of energy production?

Quote from Dr Richard

They're probably just being careful - their setup has some similarities to the old Farnsworth-Hirsch fusors, and the later polywell systems which nearly cracked the whole fusion issue before nuclear physicists started using magnetic confinement of plasmas resulting in the wasted massive spending on tokamaks and ITER. Could be the Safire crew have made quite a ground-breaking discovery in not attepting to contain the plasma (as they say working with rather than against nature). Do they have a self-confining plasma the details of which are about to be published in Nature? They havn't published much of the details, just that the alternating plasma rings alternate in positive and negative polarities {like layers of an onion} and propose some unknown 'force-field'. I think this is all quite remarkable and needs modelling mathematically to work out what's happening. Are these alternating rings of electrons and protons maybe held together by Unruh (or Hawking) radiation according to the new Quantised Inertia hypothesis of Mike McCulloch? (this radiation has been proposed to hold the galaxies together removing the necessity for dark matter-which nobody has found any evidence for anyway). A possible unification of hot plasma fusion and LENR could make all the other hot fusion projects redundant- why not start replicating this Safire system, its design is quite simple, with the aim of energy production?

The SAFIRE experiment is a spherical glow discharge tube

Russ and Alan built one of these glow tubes and placed a foil inside it. They got effects similar to the effects that showed up in SAFIRE when the tungsten probe was inserted into the SAFIRE plasma band.

Yes, as you say, a sherical glow discharge tube and as you show Russ and Alan have already replicated the effect using deuterium. Excellent work guys! Any transmutation of elements detected on the foil/ electrodes or neutron component in the 'strange radiation'?

Quote from Dr Richard

Yes, as you say, a sherical glow discharge tube and as you show Russ and Alan have already replicated the effect using deuterium.

We do no glowing.. we just look at the sky...

We also do no replicating work. We just try to understand LENR without any heat input.

We also won't discuss with skeptics, this is priests stuff.

If we see 20 watts excess from 1 gram of fuel we open a bottle of wine and enjoy the impact of 1 gram alcohol...

The only reason I mentioned fusors was because the sequence of plasma development as the voltage is ramped up in the SAFIRE project looks just like the 'Wiffle Ball' sequence of plasma changes described by Rob W Bussard in one of his inertial electrostatic confinement systems. The vast literature on plasma research can't have missed something so obvious as self-confining plasma shells anyway (or could it????}. So no replication work is necessary, just sit back, enjoy your wine.

Nice evidence for dark matter by Leif Holmlid, enough H(0) in the galaxy to have supported Bussard's ramjet idea for interstellar travel if we ever get round to building a decent hyper-efficient fusion drive. Must read some more Ian M Banks Sci Fi Culture series as a vision of how good (or bad) its going to get!

Quote from Dr Richard

The only reason I mentioned fusors was because the sequence of plasma development as the voltage is ramped up in the SAFIRE project looks just like the 'Wiffle Ball' sequence of plasma changes described by Rob W Bussard in one of his inertial electrostatic confinement systems. The vast literature on plasma research can't have missed something so obvious as self-confining plasma shells anyway (or could it????}. So no replication work is necessary, just sit back, enjoy your wine.

The original motivation for the SAFIRE experiment is to explore the "astrophysical electrical double layer." The detailed dynamics of plasma behavior in space is not yet known.

https://www.ceb.cam.ac.uk/rese…e-electrical-double-layer

It is turning out that the electrical-double-layer is a natural system that generates the LENR reaction. Because of its simplicity, this natural occurring structure will expose the mast basic underling factors that produce the LENR reaction. I speculate that these factors include chiral spin/charge separation and possible vortex formation at plasma spin/charge boundaries.

Quote from axil

The original motivation for the SAFIRE experiment is to explore the "astrophysical electrical double layer." The detailed dynamics of plasma behavior in space is not yet known.

https://www.ceb.cam.ac.uk/rese…e-electrical-double-layer

It is turning out that the electrical-double-layer is a natural system that generates the LENR reaction. Because of its simplicity, this natural occurring structure will expose the mast basic underling factors that produce the LENR reaction. I speculate that these factors include chiral spin/charge separation and possible vortex formation at plasma spin/charge boundaries.

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In planet crust Earth such processes happen constantly, still Faraday declared it!

Quote from Gennadiy Tarassenko

In planet crust Earth such processes happen constantly, still Faraday declared it!

This strange observation points to how LENR is produced naturally inside the earth

See post

What is the maximum energy that LENR can accumulate.