QX Concepts - A less critical Rossi thread.

  • This thread is NOT for individuals who think Rossi is nothing but an all out hoaxer who has NEVER had ANY working device. If you are in that camp, your presence in this thread will not be helpful or wanted. Instead, it would only cause conflict. However, I invite everyone who is open to the possible reality of the E-Cat technology and is willing to discuss the QX in a civil and open minded manner to post here. It's fine if you have some doubts: as long as you mind hasn't been made up that, "he never had anything and doesn't have anything." In fact, I agree that we don't have absolute proof (or close to it) that the QX performs anywhere near how Andrea Rossi describes. But my personal opinion, which could be wrong, is that it is an enhanced version of the Chernetsky and PAGD technologies described in my article below. What's exciting, if this is the case, is that the QX should not be absurdly difficult to replicate. In fact, the principles in simple form have already been laid out for us.


    If there's even a small chance we could successfully replicate the QX (if it works to begin with which we don't know for certain) then the implications would be enormous. As George Egely described in his ICCF presentation, a whole realm of lost science would be opened up to us!

  • This thread looks like a one-way road...replicate will mean, you know what to replicate, how and what the result will be. So far Rossi didn't reveal anything that would allow anybody to replicarte what he claims to have - despite he said he found the holy grail and had a certified reliable product. Don't forget that he dropped his previous" product" in favor of his new one..... Already the "normal E-cat" would have been for all mankind a new cheap and portable energy source, and hew ould have been awarded with the Nobel prize. But doesn't seem there was a product, at least nobody can find out anymore.

  • Zorud,

    This thread isn't to discuss Rossi's previous technologies. It's purpose is only to focus on the QX.

    I also admit we cannot do a pure replication of the QX. However, we can do something that's roughly similar to a replication. We know a fair amount about some of the components, the fuel that is claimed to be used, the regime (abnormal glow discharge) that the device probably works in, what to look for when it comes to overheating of the power supply, etc. If we build something very similar and it produces significant excess energy, I'd call it something roughly close to a replication. And even if it wouldn't be an exact replication, it wouldn't matter. We would have built a powerful LENR/ZPE device. However, I understand some users on this forum hate the thought of any of Andrea Rossi's technologies being confirmed as legitimate. Quite frankly, I don't care what these people think!

  • If Bob Greenyer happens to be reading, we do have an idea of the internal configuration of at least one version of the QX. There is a photograph in the paper that Rossi and Gullstrom released, and we have a witness that saw the system up close. Literally, the two electrodes appear rounded at the ends (the smaller the sharp tip the better so it may not be easily visible with the naked eye) and they are facing each other only perhaps a centimeter or so apart. What makes the system work is probably the fuel mixture which allows for a resonant transfer plasma to be created (allowing a plasma to exist at low voltages so that high voltage spikes are not required to constantly re-initiate the plasma). Also, what's also critical is keeping the discharge in the abnormal glow discharge regime. If an arc discharge is produced, nothing significant will happen and the tip on the cathode could be damaged. Finally, I do not think that an external magnetic field is required, but I think it may be useful in helping produce vortex structures.

    I don't think that attempting to replicate the QX would be a shot in the dark. We'd have a modest amount of information about the QX to lead us and a lot of information about the PAGD. I do agree that the device also has elements of Kenneth Shoulders system. In addition to producing a back spike into the power supply that could be harnessed to produce excess electricity, the device should be producing longitudinal waves as well that could be harnessed.

  • Also, what's also critical is keeping the discharge in the abnormal glow discharge regime. If an arc discharge is produced, nothing significant will happen and the tip on the cathode could be damaged.

    I think at least at the beginning of each "cycle" the device did indeed produce energetic arc discharges, during the Stockholm demonstration. At the time I transcribed some related exchanges from the full-audio video of the event (which I can't seem to find again on the Internet).


    [1:17:05] [Levi] *gets close to E-Cat*

    [1:17:08] [Rossi] Non toccare, perché se ti becca, questa, è pericolosissima. (?)

    [Levi] Lo vedo… L'ho visto, qui, c'è una scarica che viene giù…

    Also see:

  • We certainly need a thread free of the endlessly repetitive babble of the doubters.

    This might also be a good thread to follow the run up tthe Jan31 demo of the SK too. We already know Rossi has said he will demonstrate the "overall" COP. including the power supply. Also that his large client is in a position to continue the work should he become ill.

  • Adrian,

    I thought what he said today was interesting also: "Besides, the firepower of our main Client will make soon my person less important". I know the man, and can say there is a client. Looking forward to finding out more.

    P.S. Just a reminder to others: if you have something negative to say about Rossi, this is not the place.

  • Wouldnt you need details of the waveforms Rossi uses to drive the reactor? Rossi seems to think they are so critical to it's operation that he'd rather be critisised for not measuring the input power at Stockholm than give away this info.

  • Shane,

    It looks like those interested in considering LENR and Rossi's reactors to be real have been driven away by the hostile environment here. Th Director's piece on ECW has attracted 56 comments compared to just a couple of relevant ones here.

    I would still like to use this thread to give updates on the demo. (Or start one for that?)

    How do I find it once it has scrolled off the front page?

  • Adrian,

    I can either change the title of this thread to be an all inclusive, Rossi protected safe space, or start a new one for you. Up to Director as it is his thread.

    Edit: I am on a trip, so when you decide I will get to it when I can. Or maybe another Mod could do it? I was thinking a good title would be "Rossi Believers Safe Room" :) , or something like that.

  • Adrian,

    I can either change the title of this thread to be an all inclusive, Rossi protected safe space, or start a new one for you. Up to Director as it is his thread.

    Edit: I am on a trip, so when you decide I will get to it when I can. Or maybe another Mod could do it? I was thinking a good title would be "Rossi Believers Safe Room" :) , or something like that.

    I have changed it - as you can all see.

  • So here is what I think is needed to build a QX.

    A high temperature transparent tube of quartz or some other material.

    Two platinum covered nickel electrodes with a field emitter tip on at least one of the electrodes or maybe both. (The size and geometry of the tip would need to be experimented with.)

    A small amount of LiAlH4, argon/neon, and LiH.

    A vacuum pump to lower the pressure in the tube before it is activated to make glow discharge happen at a lower voltage.

    Proper valves, clamps, etc.

    A power supply with software to prevent an arc discharge from occurring.

    Thermocouples at different positions to prevent various components from overheating and to be used during calorimetry tests.

    The good thing is that I think the cost for a replication attempt would not be insanely outrageous.

    The bad thing is that it would require someone skilled enough to fabricate components and build the power supply.

  • So here is what I think is needed to build a QX.

    That sounds like a good position for someone to begin research into the area.

    But it is mile away from doing a replication. You don't know the details of the design, the materials, the fuel, nor the output from the power pack.

    As Rossi is very secret about such things it is unlikely we will get to know them in the near future.

  • Adrian,

    There are a lot of details we don't know but I think we are aware of enough to begin a replication effort. After reading the work of Simon Brink, I'm more convinced that Rossi's using the powerful transients in the abnormal glow discharge zone to slam the atomic hydrogen and lithium into each other to induce nuclear reactions. I think the basics of the QX are not too awful mysterious anymore. Actually, I think inducing reactions with a QX like system will be easier than with powder based systems. Once you achieve a plasma of the proper composition, enter the abnormal glow discharge regime, and find the optimum frequency to pulse it at (which will vary depending upon the parameters of your system), the excess heat is very likely.

    If I had a lab, which I don't, this is the path I would follow. Although we need third party tests to verify Rossi's claims about the QX, I have a feeling that his system could really be the pinnacle of LENR.

  • I think it might be a good idea to go back to basics when it comes to figuring out how the E-Cat QX works.

    We know that before Rossi achieved anything in the lab, Piantelli and Focardi were figuring out how to produce significant excess heat from nickel and hydrogen alone. They were able to get nickel to breathe in and then release large quantities of hydrogen. I expect this was possible because they were forming a large number of Super Abundant Vacancies in the nickel. When the hydrogen was migrating in or out of these SAVs during a temperature or pressure change, the nickel would go into an excited state and begin to produce excess heat in addition to emitting x-rays, gamma rays, and sometimes neutrons.

    Moving forward, while Rossi and Focardi were working together, it is likely Rossi added reverse spillover catalysts to optimize the absorption of hydrogen. Here is a critical element -- to produce significant excess heat you MUST have atomic hydrogen present.

    So we have nickel with SAVs in the lattice continually producing excess heat for long periods of time in self sustain mode. Dr. Levi witnessed such a test in which he operated an E-Cat for eighteen hours in self sustain mode producing spikes of up to 130kW of heat.

    However, later systems didn't seem to self sustain as robustly or in the same manner. This does not mean they were not capable of self sustaining but that something fundamental had changed about how they were designed.

    We know that by the time the first one megawatt plant was tested, Andrea Rossi was using radio frequency generators. When the temperature inside the gaseous environment of his reactors would reach a certain temperature, he'd turn on the RFGs and he could then turn off the traditional resistive heating elements. The reactor would quasi-self sustain with only the power of the RFGs. In fact, to power the entire first one megawatt plant, only one hundred watts were needed to be used.

    So what was the role of the RFGs?

    The obvious first role would be to produce atomic hydrogen. By producing atomic hydrogen in a plasma and not using spillover catalysts, you can further enhance the loading of hydrogen into nickel. I think it's possible that in these systems, although he may have vacuumed his fuel very well to remove oxygen and other contaminants that would clog up the lattice and prevent absorption, he may not have utilized repeated cycles of hydrogenation and heating under vacuum like he did originally. This leads to the next role of the RFGs.

    The second role of the RFGs could be to sputter the nickel surface so that particulate vaporized nickel is released. We know that the optimize size of particles is important. Piantelli mentions in his patents that the nickel atoms should be arranged in certain types of clusters to have them interact with atomic hydrogen and induce LENR. My thinking is that the sputtering created the same nano-scale clustering of nickel atoms that may also exist in the lattice after SAVs have formed. But instead of producing them only in the interior of the nickel, Rossi was producing them both on the surface and perhaps even in the atmospheric environment of the reactor.

    Now, we have vaporized nickel -- perhaps along with lithium and other additives such as argon to enhance the sputtering effect -- in the reactor along with atomic hydrogen. According to Randell Mills, Simon Brinks, and others, some how when interacting with the nickel atoms/clusters the atomic hydrogen would re-arrange to shrink or become more dense. I would say that we don't really know what happens to them. However, somehow they are transformed. Once this takes place, they can far more easily penetrate into the nucleus of adjacent atoms and induce LENR reactions.

    So in these powder based systems utilizing RFGs, I suspect there were several factors to optimize to produce a powerful effect.

    One - The atmospheric composition which probably included "catalytic" elements such as lithium and argon.

    Two - The geometry of the reactor to insure that the glow discharge plasma would indeed come in contact with the nickel to be sputtered.

    Three - The power of the RFG. We want a plasma to form but we may not want too much sputtering to take place or such a high quantity of atomic hydrogen to be present so that all of the nickel is converted into NiH.

    Four - The frequency of the RFG should be adjusted to maximize the interactions in the plasma that make the atomic hydrogen slam into other vaporized particles or clusters on the surface of the nickel powder.

    Five - The texture of the powder to make sure that when it is struck by charged particles that the most powerful surface plasmon polaritons or surface electric waves are produced.

    Now, I'm going to skip a few generations of reactors to keep this post brief.

    When Rossi was working on the original Madam Curie or ECATX, he was attempting to directly interact atomic hydrogen and other vaporized atoms. My guess is that due to the very high vaporization temperature of nickel, he decided to focus on utilizing lithium as the fuel. He realized that instead of using a huge open volume where a low level glow discharge would exist, he could maximize the reactions in a more narrow column of plasma. We know that he claims the plasma column in the QX is tiny -- maybe a millimeter in diameter. In such a zone the plasma could be more intense. However, he'd still need to find a way to make the particles slam into each other to produce the modified hydrogen and induce LENR. Looking at existing literature, he probably ran into all the work performed in the abnormal glow discharge regime. In this area, you can produce powerful transients and surges in current. These sudden jolts are exactly what are needed to slam the particles into each other. He may be pulsing the input at 100khz, however, these transients which make the particles slam into each other may take place in much smaller timeframes. If you watch the oscilloscope from the Stockholm presentation, you will various spikes that go up and down at a far higher magnitude than the input. It is during these spikes that I think the majority of the LENR reactions are taking place.

    Basically, the QX is a way of focusing and concentrating the LENR reactions. Many other systems can be built, but the QX is far more precise, far more controllable, and far more powerful.

    For those who want to keep researching powder based systems, I'd suggest designing a resonant cavity in which a glow discharge would easily form at the lowest possible power. On the interior walls of this cavity, I would place high surface area nickel powder. On the exterior, I would install a resistor wire to heat up the walls. I would then insert various concentrations of hydrogen and argon into the reactor to begin with and perhaps later on add a pellet of lithium. (I should mention that the whole device should be vacuumed out extremely well to remove oxygen.)

    My guess is that if you could find the optimal frequency and voltage, excess heat production would begin at very high COP.

    However, I think the QX is even simpler and should be tested first.

  • Rossi has said many times that his reactors don't emit any radiation. I also think I'm correct in saying the QX has no radaition schielding because at least some light from the plasma escapes.

    Since other people do see radaition from Nickel and Hydrogen, doesn't this suggest that's not what Rossi is using?

  • I have no doubt that Rossi's reactors have all produced some quantity of radiation. This is because Focardi and Piantelli's systems produced x-rays, gammas, and neutrons. However, we know that the neutrons emitted by LENR reactions are not always true neutrons. Otherwise, Russ George would have died years ago during his experiment that produced "tellerons." Rossi shields his reactors -- at least the ones that utilized nickel powder -- so that none of these forms of radiation escape. I'm unsure what type of shielding the QX utilizes. The heat exchanger would probably shield at least some of the radiation.

    I'm thinking the QX utilizes the same basic phenomenon as his other systems, but that the proton lithium fusion is less likely to produce neutrons and other emissions that would be more difficult to shield.

  • SK Reactor.

    The information that follows is largely from Rossi's JONP. While it is not proven it is the only information that we have. For discussion, I assume it is correct unless proven otherwise.

    Origin of the SK

    The "Tiger Cat", of which four were used in the Doral, was the culmination of Rossi's many designs using solid powder as fuel. It was not tested for long enough and Rossi found it had control problems that required him to spend half his life there to keep them working. Worse, Rossi discovered that they were really worn after a year. Greenyer and Axil have suggested this was due to EVOs which would make it difficult to fix.

    Rossi kept on experimenting and read widely. Following initial promising results with a plasma reactor, he apparently concluded it was easier to start again with a plasma system than fix the problems on the latest solid fuel reactor.

    This time he tested the QX for a year, and he demonstrated it last September. It was tiny, only about 12 mm long by 6 mm diameter. It has had small changes in size since and the current size is not known. It was rated at 100 Watts and was demonstrated at 25 Watts to reduce the possibility of problems. The COP is not known as the power used by the power pack was not given, but it appears to be high. As shown in my post on the Rossi blog thread, one would need at least a COP of 25 to compete against gas heating.

    In order to reach commercialization as quickly as possible and preserve secrecy, Rossi decided to sell metered heat. He has apparently got more than one client as a result of the Sept demo, with the major one wanting 40 MW. The 100 W QX is really too small to make such a large output and he has been working on increasing the output. The QX is now rated at 1 kW and he started working on larger reactors dubbed Sk 10 kW and SK 100 kW.

    Rossi originally hoped to have the QX in production by October and sales of them to start at the end of the year. This was optimistic. Production by years' endwais more likely, with sales by mid-2019.

    The situation was complicated by promising results from the SK 10 kW. It looks

    like production of the QX was put on hold until this difficult decision was made in conjunction with his client. The SK was obviously a more attractive solution but untested compared to the QX. The decision to go for production with the SK was made about a month ago.

    Several key problems have been solved with QX. The material for the tube has to be transparent so the radiation does not make the tube too hot. Quartz failed and Rossi said he had found a better material. Boron nitride has been suggested, but what exactly was used is not known.

    The heat exchanger is a difficult problem. Rossi said he is very happy with a break though design. It allows a user temperature of supercritical steam and can stand the pressure.

    The power pack used in the Sept demo was large and inefficient. It was providing only a couple of Watts output yet required cooling. Some have suggested the

    problem was electricity feedback from the reactor, but this is not known. The new power pack is smaller and much more efficient. Rossi says it can control a number of reactors.

    The SK Reactor

    Little is known about it.

    1. It is rated at 10 kW

    2. One client has been involved in the testing and is helping with the production line. (ABB?)

    3. It is expected to last a year but has not been tested that long yet.

    4. It will be produced on a highly automated production line. So even should Rossi die, the technology will be known.

    The Jan 31st Demo

    The "industrial" SK will be shown in operation.

    The total input and output energy will be measured and shown so the COP can be calculated.

    It will be live-streamed and viewers can ask questions.

    Frank Acland will be there and also answer questions and write a report.

    The critics will certainly doubt the measurements.

    Rossi rightly thinks a commercial approach will be the fastest way to use LENR.

    It will gradually become accepted, as more independent customers buy metered heat.

    The real breakthrough will be an SK powered gas turbine. The developer of this claims to have run a modified turbine already, and Rossi says a model of a

    turbine for SK power has now been made. A turbine manufacturer is unlikely to give updates until they have the finished article.

    No major company in energy or transport will be able to ignore that, and will either license the technology or start working on it themselves. I don't expect this

    to happen until 2020.

    Only Rossi knows what his objectives are and it is an illusion for others to think they know. Obviously he wants his inventions to work. He says he will go on working until he is 99 if he can. After an SK turbine is developed Rossi will no longer be in control whether he wants to be or not.

    If you see factual mistake (not opinions) s, please point them out. Otherwise you re free to quote this comment and criticize it in the Rossi blog thread.