Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

  • Rossi provided a very significant boost to the LENR community (I think Jed's download statistics support this).


    It does seem that he did. This was a mixed blessing. The statistics are here:


    https://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=1213


    I added the January totals today, and then noted some discouraging things about the graphs, especially the trend line, which is a polynomial, degree 2:



    The trend line in this graph so far is remarkably stable and symmetrical. It peaked after 11 years in 2013. If present trends continue, it will fall close to zero around 2024.


    The bottom graph, Google Trends Interest over time, shows that interest in cold fusion is asymptotically falling to zero.



    Abd did not agree. (That should be a keyboard macro.) I told him that if he does not like my trend line, he should download the numbers and graph it himself. The link to the spreadsheet is shown on the screen:


    https://docs.google.com/spread…k4YYsii0/edit?usp=sharing

  • [Assuming the performance was real, he did seem to have problems controlling them.]

    How in the world would you know that?


    I don't know it. As I said, that is assuming the performance was real, which is far from established. I know that it appeared to be unstable and uncontrolled because:


    1. I saw the data. Or what was claimed to be the data.

    2. People who observed the experiment said so.

    3. Rossi said so (rossisays, which has the lowest confidence coefficient known to science).


    The early experiments were supposedly unstable. One of them suddenly began producing tens of kilowatts, and Rossi reportedly was frightened. Later experiments, especially in Doral, were remarkably stable. Very, remarkably, unnaturally stable to more decimal places than you would think possible with those instruments, as Smith pointed out. We're talking so stable, the gadget continued to produce exactly the same amount of heat every day, even on days when it was turned off and disassembled according to Rossi's log book.



    Rossi certainly never complained of it.


    He did complain about it. As Dewey pointed out, when people asked awkward questions, he sometimes claimed the reaction was going out of control and they needed to evacuate and stop the discussion immediately.

  • Going back to "certification"..


    My understanding is that any device containing logic switching at more than a few kHz (10kHz?) needs FCC certification (Title 47 CFR Part 15). Within that there are class A and class B products. Class A covers industrial products. Class B consumer products.


    You are meant to get this done before the product is "marketed"...


    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/t…5&rgn=div5#se47.1.15_1101


    Quote:

    Equipment authorization of unintentional radiators.


    (a) Except as otherwise exempted in §§15.23, 15.103, and 15.113, unintentional radiators shall be authorized prior to the initiation of marketing, pursuant to the procedures for certification or Supplier's Declaration of Conformity (SDoC) given in subpart J of part 2 of this chapter, as follows:

    End Quote


    But perhaps this is why Rossi is selling heat not SK reactors.

  • Actually now I've checked the exemptions I've found...


    Quote:


    (b) A digital device used exclusively as an electronic control or power system utilized by a public utility or in an industrial plant. The term public utility includes equipment only to the extent that it is in a dedicated building or large room owned or leased by the utility and does not extend to equipment installed in a subscriber's facility.


    End Quote


    So does a power system include heating systems?

  • Sam - again no opinion, just posting a link...

    you are expecting soon sales and feedback - why don't you help us all to get through to the truth by buying a small unit for your business if you have one or can you help finding someone who is also interested? Aftenposten is eager to following up this story:


    "If some of Aftenposten's readers try to order the heat source, we are very interested in telling about the result."

    I ran into the boss of the division of

    a Company I work for and told him

    about Rossi technology.If I see him

    again sometime I will ask him if he

    looked into it.

  • That's surprisingly good press - but NEVER stop questioning!


    Not sure any press at this point is good. You do not have to scratch the surface very deep to see this presentation uncovered some major red flags about the technology. If it turns out to be another Doral, it will be bad for the field in general. The more positive the press about it beforehand, the worse it will be.


    If I had my say, there would be no press at all until we have some proof this time it is real. The presentation was so bad in every aspect, it really does not deserve any attention other than here in LENR land. No one listens to me though, so all I can do is ask any journalist thinking of doing an article on this, to be more balanced than what has been put out already. Do a short mention of Rossi's history, distance Rossi from the field, and give a word of caution about any irrational exuberance.

  • So this was actually making ~6.5 MW?


    From Bruce's transcript (fixed up some more, bold added): ~49:30

    "

    AR) Lower left is the spectrometer, is the graphic of the spectrometer. In the x-axis we read the wavelength in nanometers and this is why the equation we have made a zero point etc., because the Wien equation is in microns and one micron is 1000 nanometer and in the y-axis you have the density the density at that wavelength and this is the area around the cathode and this is where we have considered the calculation of the energy because, and this is very conservative, because the plasma has a surface of about 300 to 330 square centimeters we just forgot to, we just consider only 1 and did not measure the energy around"


    Since the equations only used 1 cm2, we should be able just multiply the power for 1 cm2 by 300 - 330 (!!)

  • PS thanks to the folks who put together sequenced videos of the plasma spectrum. Very illuminating. A black body this is not.


    That spectrum may not be representative of the spectrum produced by the plasma. Rossi posted in his blog that the spectrum of the plasma falls between 100 and 200 nm. It also reportedly includes colors down the entire lower end of the color scale: that is why the plasma looks white. Most likely at a minimum, the spectrum from the demo was cutoff in both the high and low end and might have been modified by the enclosure material. It is most likely that the spectrum is not a black body spectrum. It looks like what R. Mills produces in the SunCell.

  • So Rossi did mislead the audience on purpose, or he has no clue how to proper use his spectroscope (calibrated by an expert of his team, because he may not be able to do this n his own) Or he doesn’t the heck know what he is talking about. You can find at least three or four posts on his blog and his famous paper, where he mentioning always different peaks...

  • Here is my opinion why his presentation was so horrible.


    I think that the technology is likely relatively simple. In fact, I am guessing that a qualified team could start producing *some* degree of excess heat relatively quickly. He knows this and does NOT want a great deal of attention, because the technology would be replicated and the know how disclosed. So to minimize the chance of that happening, he made the presentation as bad as possible. That why he would push away 98% of interested individuals while attracting a few very small clients. It is the same technique that Patterson utilized. Jed Rothwell has explained how Patterson only wanted very limited attention.

  • Here is my opinion why his presentation was so horrible.


    I think that the technology is likely relatively simple.

    True. Load some LENR fuel in a container: heat the fuel until it is vaporized, run a square wave RF signal through the electrodes into the fuel vapor and the reaction begins.


    If Rossi did a spectrum of the plasma, he had to use a spectrometer that uses a grate since the plasma produces such high energy XUV light. That means that during development, Rossi put the plasma is a big containment box like R. Mills does. That also means that the plasma is self containing and very stable. Rossi said that the plasma has a area of 300 cm^2. That is a 4 inch diameter sphere. In the SK reactor, Rossi put the plasma in a transparent box just big enough to hold the 4 inch plasma ball.


    300px-Spectrometer_schematic.gif

  • Here is my opinion why his presentation was so horrible.


    I think that the technology is likely relatively simple. In fact, I am guessing that a qualified team could start producing *some* degree of excess heat relatively quickly. He knows this and does NOT want a great deal of attention, because the technology would be replicated and the know how disclosed. So to minimize the chance of that happening, he made the presentation as bad as possible. That why he would push away 98% of interested individuals while attracting a few very small clients. It is the same technique that Patterson utilized. Jed Rothwell has explained how Patterson only wanted very limited attention.

    OMFG


    Blame it on anything but the truth.

    The presentation was horrible because it was poorly planned and poorly executed.

    It showed nothing substantial because that is what is for sale.

  • He knows this and does NOT want a great deal of attention, because the technology would be replicated and the know how disclosed. So to minimize the chance of that happening, he made the presentation as bad as possible.


    But why did he do this presentation if he didn't want to have attention? The presentation was very likely viewed 99% by people who already knew about the E-Cat.

    So why he didn't just make an announcement on his blog comment section as he usually does?


    This argument simply doesn't fit into the facts.

  • The entire ECW forum is meanwhile following again this new old theme...of course ROssi will sell SKs, will have satisfied customers, but due to the snakes and trolls and the competitive advantage by saving huge heat costs no customer will be lift the secrecy curtain and go public... :-)

  • There are a lot of open questions, indeed.

    One would also probably be, what all the people living in the neighborhood of Leonardo's office (Rossi's condo) in Miami would think, if they would know that somebody in the building is tinkering around with little nuclear reactors and neutron detectors, operates from his headquarter in the condo remotely a distant heat plant powered by novel LENR technology and is offering cheap heat sales out of his nuclear devices ... if Rossi's vision would really become true (flooding the world with his -20% heat cost installations) he will probably also be a candidate for the Nobel prize in economics (next to physics or chemistry for his groundbreaking new low energy nuclear reactor ("the Rossi Tech")... :-)


    But we all have to wait and see for a little while, what' to come, unfortunately...

  • Amongst the many other things I'm dubious about, one is that I can't help wondering if a 20% saving on heating bills is going to be sufficiently attractive to the discerning customer. Even assuming minimal disruption and cost in installing the SKBeast, I can easily imagine a fair proportion of potential customers, once they look closely at their existing arrangements, find that it is relatively simple to save close to that by conventional means (more efficient boilers, better insulation, etc). And all without risking installing a mystery magic machine operating on unknown principles with no firm data or user recommendations to back up the decision.

  • Although I am (was) a mere microbiologist, my bullcrap detector is active in other fields.

    Lots of people are ignoring the facts that a) Rossi, in his first equation is calculating COLOUR TEMPERATURE, and b) that colour temperature is in no way correlated to actual temperature unless one is dealing with a perfect black body OR one knows the emissivity of the source.


    Empirically, one can test this by putting the tip of one's pinkie on a lit blue LED. The Colour Temperature of that LED treated mathematically as a black body, will be in the range of mebbe 6,000 + deg K. Your pinkie, however, whilst it may detect warmth, even heat, will not be incinerated - as it would be if you were foolish enough to place it on similarly-sized mass of iron at the same colour temperature.


    Try it and see!


    Oh, and I see that there's a lot of rubbish about thermalising UV light over at The Other Place. Talk about post hoc rationalisation!

  • Well said! It is not only the spectroscopy, but also calorimetry and simple math, that seems to be a problem. The more but all these fantasies on robotic factories, hundred of employees, selling heat -20% business plans, not meeting the simpliest requirements for product design, verifiaction and approval etc. You can go on and on. Everybody who can count 1+1 and has a realistic view on this charade from a higher altitude should find out in the twinkling of an eye that this latest "market launch" on ECW, supported by his friend Frank Ackland, is another of his masterpieces...we have seen quite some.

    I for myself (being once a believer in Rossi and LENR, but gave up soon on the Rossi side) but find it interesting and entertaining to follow this story, just to see how this will work out for Rossi, Leonardo and ECW (which is his last stand in the market, it seems, oh - I should not forget Mats Lewan).

  • I should perhaps make it clear that although I am quite sure that the ecat and all its manifestations are fraudulent, I am agnostic on LENR in general. There seem to be enough reports from actual scientists of anomalous heat and/or unexpected products to warrant continued investigation by those capable of doing it properly; but my own knowledge of physics is far too limited to make a useful judgement.

    But at least I know my limitations!

  • Cold fusion does appear to violate the known laws of physics,


    ***Scientific laws are just mathematically rigorous observations. It is not a "violation" to update an observation with a new set of observations , they're just unexpected observations. When tectonic plate theory was rejected, it was on the basis of "violation" of known 'laws'. Similarly when the Wright brothers were initially rejected. But when someone with a stellar reputation such as Einstein tries to update the observations, the discussion is no longer framed as a "violation" of the laws. This brand of scientism is disgusting. An observation is an observation, regardless of who is observing.





    https://todayinsci.com/F/Feynm…manRichard-Quotations.htm


    "

    It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong. "

    — Richard P. Feynman









    As with other scientific knowledge, they do not have absolute certainty (as mathematical theorems or identities do), and it is always possible for a law to be overturned by future observations.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law

  • Well said! It is not only the spectroscopy, but also calorimetry and simple math, that seems to be a problem. The more but all these fantasies on robotic factories, hundred of employees, selling heat -20% business plans, not meeting the simpliest requirements for product design, verifiaction and approval etc. You can go on and on. Everybody who can count 1+1 and has a realistic view on this charade from a higher altitude should find out in the twinkling of an eye that this latest "market launch" on ECW, supported by his friend Frank Ackland, is another of his masterpieces...we have seen quite some.

    I for myself (being once a believer in Rossi and LENR, but gave up soon on the Rossi side) but find it interesting and entertaining to follow this story, just to see how this will work out for Rossi, Leonardo and ECW (which is his last stand in the market, it seems, oh - I should not forget Mats Lewan).


    Yeay, yeah ... As Bertrand Russell said


    "When a man tells you that he knows the exact truth about anything, you are safe in inferring that he is an inexact man" :)