Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

  • If you were remotely capable of critical thinking with regard to Rossi (and it is obvious that you are not, so there is another useless hypothetical), you would agree.

    And THERE it is. The unprovoked insult. The last time I responded to unprovoked insults on this forum I was placed on "probation". No doubt the famous "double secret probation" of Animal House fame.


    So why should anyone listen to you, since you have decided to downshift into personal insults? You went out of your way not to answer any of my questions or contentions. You added more IFs to the conditional instead, and then right here you're adding personal insult.


    That means that the conversation will get shifted over to some other thread even though I have not answered your putrid insult in kind. In fact I removed your personal insult just so we could talk further about the substance of your remark.



    And when that shift takes place, there is no notification, making it appear as if I didn't answer your questions. And yet the last time around the moderators were keying up on me, even though I did not start the insults. So we'll see if the rules have gotten any better around here or if the mods are just as touchy as they used to be.

  • Putting aside the utter absurdity of Rossi’s “strategy “ to protect his “technology”, why in the world do you believe it is real? Seriously!

    That's just it. It can't be put aside, because the remarks will get moved to some other thread. Why did you decide to go down this unpleasant path? You'll have to answer that to yourself because, to be candid, I'm not really all that interested in your answer.

  • Putting aside the utter absurdity of Rossi’s “strategy “ to protect his “technology”, why in the world do you believe it is real? Seriously!

    Where did I presume it? YOU are the one who PRESUMED it. And I commented on your presumption, with all kinds of caveats about it being IF:IF If if IF. And I also predicted that someone would bypass all those IFs (even though there sure are a lot of IFs) --- maybe I need to put in more IFs.... If If IF:IF.... IF....is that enough? ---- okay, where were we...


    Oh, I predicted it and you did PreCISELY as I predicted. Doesn't it bother you that your actions are that predictable?

  • IF what he has is real then he will disrupt hundreds of billions of dollars of business, well actually $trillions, and all those interests are lined up to take this thing from him. So, such a businessman would be RIGHTFULLY paranoid.

    And IF my gravity shielding generator (based on the work of the Russian scientist Podkletnov) works, then I will disrupt hundred of billions of dollars in aviation business.


    I attached a demo-picture of a prototypes of my flying machines, which need zero fuel.

    (I think this picture is even more convincing than Rossi’s latest demo, because it shows my prototype in real operation).


    Same as Rossi, in order to protect my IP, I am not selling this machines, but will offer air-tickets 20% cheaper than any other carrier instead (How could this be a scam?)

    I guarantee that my flying machines are 100% safe (as a backup “qualified” customers need to wear a parachute), and they are all remote controlled from my headquater.

    Please understand I am a bit paranoid because of the impact my gravity shielding invention will have on big player like Boeing, Airbus and all airlines (and also for militaries).

    So I won’t give more information here, but you can contact me (for information about “opportunities”) by e-mail [email protected].

  • Sure, Rossi is a crappy businessman. He says to judge him by the standard of "In Mercato Veritas" and there is zero in Mercato therefore there is zero Veritas.


    But keep in mind that IF (there's that big word again, and I have no doubt that you will not address any conditionals I pose to you, but that's another story) If --again I say IF---IF IF what he has is real then he will disrupt hundreds of billions of dollars of business, well actually $trillions, and all those interests are lined up to take this thing from him. So, such a businessman would be RIGHTFULLY paranoid. One of the greatest businessmen on the planet said "Only the paranoid survive".



    Yes, but....


    • You admit rossi is a crappy businessman
    • He is a worse than crappy engineer (av RMS measurement of spiky waveform, direction of 3 phase clamp "does not matter" because it is AC, using V^2/R to measure input power)
    • He is a self-confessed liar
    • He has never shown any evidence of his devices working when it would be strongly in his self-interest to have done so (he could have walked away from IH with $100M giving them only IP he now owns but does not develop and says is useless)


    Why on earth would you think your hypothetical here to be true?

  • If the e-cat actually works, Rossi is the worst businessman in history and, by any practical metric, is an utter moron.


    I can't argue with the 'worst businessman' meme in general though 'in all history' is somewhat overdoing it since in real terms the sums of money involved are trivial. But he cannot simultaneously be a genius con-man as portrayed by some or a genius maverick scientist as portrayed by others and a moron. So not many points for this description.

  • At the end of the day all that can be said is.......yes LENR in NiH systems produces a small amount of excess heat/energy....an effect that certain individuals (AR etc) have exaggerated all out of proportion in order to cash in on it.......but the rate of reaction of cold fusion is such that it will probably never be rapid enough to manufacture a viable energy or heat source (or that has yet to be discovered - but may never will be, given the vast amount of time and money spent so far). Our last hope probably rests with the next series of novel experiments in Japan (maybe).

  • At the end of the day all that can be said is.......yes LENR in NiH systems produces a small amount of excess heat/energy....an effect that certain individuals (AR etc) have exaggerated all out of proportion in order to cash in on it.......but the rate of reaction of cold fusion is such that it will probably never be rapid enough to manufacture a viable energy or heat source (or that has yet to be discovered - but may never will be, given the vast amount of time and money spent so far). Our last hope probably rests with the next series of novel experiments in Japan (maybe).


    Can't agree. Cold fusion systems are probably as diverse as the periodic table, and capable of producing considerable amounts of energy on demand when properly understood and developed. As somebody who works with the experimental realities every day (barring most sundays) I can only say 'we hope to surprise you.'

  • Can't agree. Cold fusion systems are probably as diverse as the periodic table, and capable of producing considerable amounts of energy on demand when properly understood and developed. As somebody who works with the experimental realities every day (barring most sundays) I can only say 'we hope to surprise you.'


    I'd agree with Alan here.


    If nuclear reactions in these systems exist at all at the levels claimed, it would be very surprising if this could not be turned into sustainable high energy and power density power sources.


    Where I'd disagree with Alan is his as yet unsubstantiated view that such nuclear reactions do exist. However , if they do, and there is concerted study, it will prove relatively easy to prove. The converse of this is that when some possible such affect is actively studied but resists giving up clear (publishable or equivalent) evidence of unexpected physics, the longer it is so studied, the less chance there is that in fact it is due to unexpected physics - rather than unexpected experimental lacunae.

  • @kevmolenr: Now that it is morning, I looked back to see what you were ranting about with respect to my dodging of your trenchant questions. As far as I can tell, they all boil down to: if Rossi’s technology is worth untold billions, then he is justified in being paranoid and going to bizarre, random lengths to protect it, isn’t he? That seems to be all you are asking.


    So let me understand his strategy. He has a technology that is worth a flipping fortune. He is afraid that it will be stolen, so he basically won’t let anybody near it so they don’t get the billions. Instead, he is going to sell “heat” to a highly-select group of customers who want to save 20% on their heating bill by having a remote-controlled blue box on their premises.


    Since you appear find this plausible, how about taking us through the math on how this is going to make billions of dollars? Or is the operating principle that it is far better to have 100% of tiny number than a small percentage of a huge number? It is far better for everything about your business and its product to be a deep dark secret so as to avoid attracting any attention (or customers.) That’s how you make the real bucks.


    I think you misunderstand the motivation of skeptics (and most LENR supporters as well) to jump around from topic to topic (economics, safety, legality, physics, logic.) The point is that there is not a single aspect of Rossi’s charade that makes a lick of sense or is remotely plausible. To be honest, the only reason it is at all interesting to watch is that there are still people who buy into it. That is astonishing.

  • Oh, so you're not going to answer any of my contentions nor questions, but just leave your lack of critical thinking out for everyone to see. Okie dokie. I suppose that answers another conditional question I had in mind.

    Kevmo,


    I will use the same logic with you that stifled every single person at ECW.


    Imagine you are in a court of law:

    P = Prosecutor

    K = Kevmo


    P. Have you ever met Mr Rossi?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you ever seen an Ecat in operation?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you ever even seen an Ecat?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you ever been to one of his demos?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you witnessed any real time data?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you ever seen the test equipment?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you seen the test procedures?

    K . No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you ever met an Ecat user?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No

    P. Have you ever experienced the Ecat heat?

    K. No

    P. Do you know anyone that has?

    K. No


    This could go on for a while Kevmo.

    You answered “NO” to every single question, but somehow you” KNOW” the Ecat works?


    The reality is you know nothing about the Ecat, it’s inventor, operation etc other than what you want to believe and have been TOLD to be believe is true.



    With the slightest amount of critical thinking

    it will become apparent.

  • Translation of this French article.

    http://roulezelectrique.com/de…ux-electriques-et-les-ve/


    NUCLEAR ENERGY WITHOUT RADIOACTIVE WASTE TO GREEN ELECTRICAL NETWORKS AND EVS?

    Written by Pierre LangloisLe 07/02/20199 Commentse-CAT, Energy, LENR, Nuclear, RossiCategories: Pierre Langlois Chronicle, Energy, Green Energies, Environment, GHG, Electric Cars

    From the outset, I explain myself on the question mark in the title. I am going to talk to you today about the recent unveiling of a new LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) reactor that releases 22 kW of thermal energy and consumes only 380 watts of electrical energy. But we must put a flat, and here's why.

    This is the fourth generation of E-Cat reactors by Andrea Rossi. It is offered commercially by Leonardo Corporation and would have delivery times of a few weeks. Although I have already written about the first generations of reactors (1, 2), which have been validated by independent researchers, the E-Cat SK reactor, which I will discuss, did not the subject of independent measurements and, for reasons of intellectual property, very little information is currently available on the details of manufacture and control. This new reactor is not yet scientifically proven.

    Leonardo Corporation does not sell its reactors, it installs them and only uses the kWh of thermal energy used, as is done for electricity. Thus, customers are safe from a potential scam since if the heat is not there and the bill is not substantially reduced, according to the terms of the contract, they do not pay. Moreover, the possible testimony of customers about the savings they will make will necessarily validate or invalidate the technology. And that should be known in about a year. In the meantime, let's cross our fingers, because the transformation potential of our societies is unheard! Judge for yourself in what follows.


    The presentation of the new E-Cat SK reactor

    On January 31, 2019, Andrea Rossi presented the latest version of its thermal energy generator, based on the low-energy nuclear reactions (RNBE), the E-Cat SK. For those who want to know more about RNBE (LENR), I refer you to an article I wrote in 2014 "E-Cat and LENR: It's very serious! Excessive skepticism hurts science ".

    A very good account of Rossi's recent presentation was made by Mats Lewan, the author of the book An Impossible Invention, on his blog. The article is entitled "My take on the E-Cat SK - Rossi now takes orders". There are links to view the different sections of the presentation.

    I must say that I was disappointed with the form of this presentation, which is far from what should be expected from the launch of such a revolutionary product, admitting that it works as advertised. I would have liked to see a minimum of decorum, a power point well done, computer graphics, flyers to download and a website up to par. Nothing of that. We are very far from Tesla's presentations for his new products! Moreover, the little information on the reactor's operation or composition is also frustrating for a scientist like me. I understand that several million dollars have been invested in 8 years to get there and that Rossi and his partners want to recover their marbles, but the result is that no one else can reproduce their latest experiences, for the moment.

    That being said, having followed the Rossi file since 2011 (date of the first public demonstration), I know that its E-Cat (Energy CATalyser) reactors are serious. The Lugano Report, in which independent and experienced scientists have reproduced the energy release measures, bears witness to this.


    The Lugano report

    Researchers from reputed institutions analyzed a 2014 version of the E-Cat reactor, with their own instruments, for 32 days and submitted a very detailed report (53 pages). The experiments took place in the city of Lugano in Switzerland, hence the name of the report. I wrote an article, at the time of the release of the report, to popularize and synthesize the amazing results obtained.

    Here are the main lines. The researchers found that 3.6 times more energy was generated in thermal form than the electrical energy used to power the reactor. The COP (coefficient of performance) was therefore 3.6. And, another striking conclusion of this report is that the energy released during the 32 days of the experiment is much higher than one would expect from chemical reactions.

    In fact, the excess thermal energy measured was 1.5 MWh, which corresponds to the energy released by the combustion of 168 liters of gasoline, whereas the reactor had only a volume of 1/10 of liter and that the reactive products it contained had a volume

    Currently, a single reactor, consuming 380 watts, heats a building of 3000 ft2 by 14 ft high at 16 ° C, with an outside temperature of 0 ° C, for more than 2 months.

    A neutron detector and a measuring instrument for ionizing radiations show continuously that there is no nuclear radiation above the usual background noise.

    The heart of this new type of reactor is a transparent hollow cylinder of 10 cm in height and 10 cm in diameter containing a gas mixture. A controlled discharge produces a plasma in the center, whose maximum temperature reaches more than 8000 ° C, verified with a spectrometer. Most of the spectrum is in the ultraviolet range, and the brightness of the plasma is so intense that you have to use a protective filter to look at it. Neither the composition of the gas nor its pressure are given. The plasma (pictured below) is controlled by square electrical pulses whose parameters adjust the power, thanks to a thermostat. Interestingly, a reactor has already run for a year without being replenished

    What is known is that the first E-Cat reactors, until 2016, consisted of small cylinders filled with nickel powder for the most part, aluminum, lithium, hydrogen, iron, carbon and oxygen, according to the analyzes of the researchers who carried out the Lugano report, mentioned above. The stoichiometry of elements Al, Li and H, again according to this ratio, is compatible with lithium aluminum hydride (LiAlH4) which is used, inter alia, to store hydrogen and release it when heated. It is also by heating the cylinders that the reaction was initiated.

    Moreover, on the Leonardo Corporation site, which markets the E-Cat reactors, it can be read today that nickel would only be used as a catalyst, and that the main reaction that leads to the release of energy involves Hydrogen and Lithium. There would be fusion between the nuclei of these two atoms to give Beryllium 8, which disintegrates into two helium nuclei and energy released in the form of heat.


    Leonardo Corporation's business model for E-CAT SK

    Leonardo Corporation, which markets the E-Cat SK, does not intend to sell its reactors, but rather the heat they produce. There would therefore be no initial disbursement of the client for the acquisition. The latter would pay an amount of the thermal kWh consumed, as is done for electricity, and pay a monthly bill substantially less than that it should pay from any other source (electricity, natural gas, propane, heating oil ... ). The ceiling price is set at 20% below the price of the competition and negotiable downwards for large heat consumers.

    The E-Cat SK is available initially in the United States, Sweden and Japan. Currently, only companies are eligible and not individuals, for easier certification issues. Typical uses are the heating of buildings or greenhouses, industrial drying processes (pulp and paper mills, among others), water heating for laundries and cafeterias (hospitals, hotels, prisons ...).

    Such a business model makes impossible an imposture on the part of Leonardo Corporation, which can not sell say 1000 E-Cat SK at $ 100,000 each and disappear in the Nature, as some critics might claim, not seeing in Andrea Rossi as a fraudster. Leonardo Corporation must provide thermal energy to its customers if they want to be paid.

    Anyway, within a year, if customers are satisfied doubts will fade.


    Let's dream a little

    Let's say the E-Cat SK reactors work with the advertised performance. Imagine all the progress that could be made in the development of low-energy nuclear reactions (RNBE), by investing a few billion dollars. The $ 30 billion investment in the thermonuclear fusion reactor ITER project is well invested, but more energy has not yet been produced to operate these fusion machines (COP <1). With more money for research on RNBEs, we could better understand the phenomena, optimize them and build various reactor formats, with, ultimately, the possibility of:

    - build very affordable heated greenhouses for the Nordic countries

    - desalt the sea water to irrigate our desert regions and give drinking water

    - heating our buildings and homes much cheaper than electricity

    - build a microturbine range extender for an electric car (no need for charging stations) that is never filled with "fuel"

    - replace the kettles of the coal and gas plants with an E-Cat kettle

    - replace the uranium nuclear reactor core with an E-Cat kettle

    - build decentralized mini-power plants that provide greater robustness (redundancy) than large, remote power plants

    No more pollution problems in energy production and no more geopolitical tensions for the control of oil and natural gas. Finished the import of fruits and vegetables from the other side of the planet, even for the Nordic countries. Cheap energy would also guarantee the economic growth of the underdeveloped countries.

    I let you guess the rest and let me know in the comments.


    About Recent Articles

    Pierre Langlois

    Pierre Langlois

    Physicist Pierre Langlois, Ph.D., is a consultant, author and speaker on sustainable mobility. He is also an instructor in continuing education for the Faculty of Science and Engineering at Université Laval, in transportation electrification. Self-employed, he is completely independent from pressure groups. Recognized as an outstanding scientific popularizer, Pierre Langlois is one of the most renowned transportation electrification stakeholders in Quebec. He is the author of the book "Roll Without Oil" (2008) and co-author of "The Electric Auto ... and more! (2018) Pierre Langlois received the special mention of the jury at the Roberval Competition in Paris, which won the best books of la Francophonie in science and technology communication in 2008 for his first two books "On the road to electricity", vol. 1 and 2. As a consultant, he was commissioned by the Quebec Network of Engineers to carry out the study "Proposals to Engage Québec on the Path of Sustainable Mobility" in 2010, and was the principal scientific advisor for the development of the Marois government's Transportation Electrification Strategy in 2013, where he worked closely with Daniel Breton. He was awarded the 2014 National Assembly Medal for his significant contribution to the electrification of transportation in Quebec.

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    Richard Lemelin 2019-02-07 21: 23: 41Reply With 22kW of continuous electric power, you can have Electric Vehicles with small batteries, like PHEV. Reduced weight, less materials like lithium, etc.


    An annual refill! Even better than hydrogen ...

    Pierre Langlois

    Pierre Langlois 2019-02-07 22: 20: 53Reply In fact, Richard is 22 kW thermal. A microturbine generator would provide about 6 kW of electrical power (25% efficiency).


    Frédérick St-Laurent 2019-02-08 22: 09: 25Responder In this case, we would benefit enormously from using it for heating in winter in Quebec and using surplus heat only to make electricity.


    André Bélisle 2019-02-07 21: 32: 55Reply Oh, here is something very impressive and who knows maybe one of the technological leaps that would save us from the worst of the CLIMATIC CRISIS.


    Two questions hydrogen production and lithium production are central but would not there be environmental contraindications?

    Pierre Langlois

    Pierre Langlois 2019-02-07 22: 18: 17Answer There are no problems André, because we are talking about some grams of Lithium per year. That's the beauty of nuclear energy, we need a million times less fuel.


    Jean-Michel Bezeau 2019-02-08 08: 55: 21Reply I imagine that the excess thermal energy measured was 1.5 MW, rather than MWh. Are there any patents on this technology?

    Pierre Langlois

    Pierre Langlois 2019-02-08 14: 19: 59 Answer Mr Bezeau, the unit of energy is kWh, the kW is a unit of power. As for patents, a US patent was granted in 2015 on the first versions of E-Cat, see https://patents.google.com/patent/US9115913B1/en. Another patent was requested for a subsequent version of the E-Cat, in 2015. I do not know if it was granted. See my article


    http://roulezelectrique.com/le…ege-italie-et-bill-gates/


    Jonathan gaudreault 2019-02-08 19: 14: 33Reply Andrea Rossi is a notable fraudster. None of the supposed articles advanced by Pierre Langlois is a true scientific article (ie revised by peers and published in a real newspaper); it comes from fake scientific journals intended to deceive people (the memegenre than those who say that the earth is flat or that vaccines do not work). Contact all the university professors you want they will all say the same thing as me about these "sources". Not only did no independent study show that it worked but the guy always prevented scientists from taking action with his system. Why is that? And by the way, the fact that there is a patent does not mean that it works: no test is done when evaluating a patent application. Only the idea is protected. Misery...

  • But he cannot simultaneously be a genius con-man as portrayed by some or a genius maverick scientist as portrayed by others and a moron. So not many points for this description.

    Well, there have been some one-dimensional geniuses who were extraordinarily good at a few things and bad at most other things. They could barely function in society and they would been dreadful at business. Oliver Heaviside comes to mind. Many of the cold fusion researchers have no knowledge of business. Their notions about how to develop and sell cold fusion have been dreadful. Jim Patterson was a successful businessman yet despite that his idea of selling cold fusion to Motorola while excluding all others with security by obscurity and maintaining a "100% market share" (his words) were batty. Utterly unrealistic. The plan went nowhere, as I predicted.


    I think Patterson's claims were valid. So it is possible to be a highly accomplished scientist and engineer but a moron in business. William Shockley was a genius scientist but bad at getting alone with people and at business. He started a company but he alienated his employees and failed.


    Based on his work habits and behavior Rossi is either eccentric, or a crook, or both. He isn't competent as a businessman. His scheme of remote control heaters that save 20% in costs is preposterous. It violates many regulations and common sense. If he actually did that and the authorities found out, it would be closed down instantly. If he is serious about this plan he is the worst businessman and the worst engineer I know of. If he not serious, then he is conducting such a ridiculous, blatant fraud I suspect it may be the Nigerian scammer technique described by Microsoft.

  • If nuclear reactions in these systems exist at all at the levels claimed, it would be very surprising if this could not be turned into sustainable high energy and power density power sources.

    The reactions do exist, and there is no doubt they are nuclear, because they never consume any chemical fuel; they produce helium in the same ratio to the heat as some nuclear reactions; and they sometimes produce tritium. They have already been demonstrated at high power and high power density, higher than than fission reactor cores. See:


    https://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=1618


    Temperature, power and power density are high, but scale is small, seldom exceeding a few watts.


    The so-called COP (a misnomer) has sometimes been infinite, and there is no reason to think it cannot be set to any convenient number once the reaction is controlled.


    THHuxleynew does not believe any of the above. His reasons have no scientific validity. His skepticism has no rational basis. It violates the essence of experimental science, which is that widely replicated, high sigma experiment are true by definition. I suspect he is motivated to abandon the scientific method by egoism and a desire to part of the in-group. One of cool kids in the lunchroom (as we Americans say). As far as I know, he has not shown any errors in any major study. His only attempt to show an error was to claim that droplets of condensed water can be pushed up a test tube by steam from a ~100 W heater. That is not true. If it were true, anyone could demonstrate it with any 100 W source, such as a resistance heater. You would not need electrolysis, palladium, heavy water or high loading. There would be no correlation with them. All test tubes would show spurious 300% excess heat by this mechanism.

  • What's the problem here? I'm not the one who introduced this conditional, it was someone else who was criticizing Rossi for not having proper licenses. And You're sending your criticism MY way? The forum will notice that I have not met insult with insult. The last time around I met insult directly with insult and the moderators keyed up on ME rather than the folks who started in with insults. And notice that your post hasn't been moved to Clearance Items. So this forum is all about letting sauce be for the goose but not for the gander, I see.