Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

  • ***Then , NO, I am not confusing those comments. You just said it again: If what he has is real... " IF the e-cat was actually what Rossi claims it is," That would mean he actually HAS something, and it is potentially worth $Billions and could change world history. But your concern is that he's operating stuff without licenses. That's pretty damned classic nit picking.

    You misunderstand. Operating without a license is the least of it. If the claim is true, he is operating a completely unknown nuclear reactor that he knows is dangerous, and that he knows is untested. He is operating it at such high power levels it would be dangerous even if it were a conventional boiler. This is an extraordinarily reckless thing to do. It is stupid. It is criminal. An accident would land him in prison. Why should he take this risk, when he could easily earn billions of dollars by conducting his business by normal means, following the laws and regulations? It makes no sense.


    This is not nitpicking. We are saying that if the claims are true, he could easily make billions but instead he is inviting catastrophe in a suicidal test that will make trivial sums of money at best.


    But keep in mind that IF (there's that big word again, and I have no doubt that you will not address any conditionals I pose to you, but that's another story) If --again I say IF---IF IF what he has is real then he will disrupt hundreds of billions of dollars of business, well actually $trillions, and all those interests are lined up to take this thing from him. So, such a businessman would be RIGHTFULLY paranoid. One of the greatest businessmen on the planet said "Only the paranoid survive".

    Andrew Grove said that. He was a genius but many other businessmen disagreed. Most of them do not act paranoid. There is no benefit to acting paranoid, and absolutely no benefit to actually being paranoid (not just acting like it). If Rossi has what he claims, he should have shown it to IH. He would have hundreds of millions by now, and billions in a few years. He told me he wants $100 million and he doesn't care about more money than that. Perhaps he was lying. But at his age, it is not likely he will live long enough to make $130 billion like Bezos, so he might as well settle for $10 billion or so. If he wants the money he should stop screwing around with preposterous schemes to sell heat at a 20% discount to a handful of Very Stupid People.


    He should partner with knowledgeable people and let them disrupt business. That is easier than you might think. Read the history of disruptions and you will see the techniques. Big companies seldom respond to disruption before it is too late to stop it. That is why big companies seldom last longer 50 to 100 years. The biggest of the big from the early 20th century are mostly gone. The Pennsylvania Railroad, AT&T, General Motors all went bankrupt after less than a century. Only the names remain. IBM almost went bankrupt in the late 1980s. The coal companies that formerly dominated energy as "King Coal" will soon be bankrupt.

  • Yes, but....


    • You admit rossi is a crappy businessman
    • He is a worse than crappy engineer (av RMS measurement of spiky waveform, direction of 3 phase clamp "does not matter" because it is AC, using V^2/R to measure input power)
    • He is a self-confessed liar
    • He has never shown any evidence of his devices working when it would be strongly in his self-interest to have done so (he could have walked away from IH with $100M giving them only IP he now owns but does not develop and says is useless)


    Why on earth would you think your hypothetical here to be true?

    It's a hypothetical. I have neither said it's true nor not true. But some folks can't seem to allow even minor positive things to be said about the man. Like, for instance IF(insert all those reinforced IFs and Hypotheticals and all that bullshit because people don't seem to know what a hypothetical is) IF:IF if Rossi has LENR in a box then the criticism of him not having the right licenses is completely out of proportion.


    You want me to go along with that there list of things that bothers you. I got it. Then you need to go along with the stuff that bothers me. Otherwise you're simply trying to jump past that hypothetical, which is exactly what I predicted.

  • I can't argue with the 'worst businessman' meme in general though 'in all history' is somewhat overdoing it since in real terms the sums of money involved are trivial. But he cannot simultaneously be a genius con-man as portrayed by some or a genius maverick scientist as portrayed by others and a moron. So not many points for this description.

    But if someone else says almost exactly the same thing you just said, all kinds of invective gets poured onto them. Why is it that the moderators don't take that stuff over to Clearance Items?

  • Okay, fine. Just give me the link over there where you posted it and I'll answer over there.

  • His scheme of remote control heaters that save 20% in costs is preposterous. It violates many regulations and common sense. If he actually did that and the authorities found out, it would be closed down instantly.


    I'm not sure I understand what you are arguing against here. Is it the viability of the HaaS business plan? Or is it simply that you believe it is/should be illegal and/or regulated?

  • Sam 12,


    See the post directly above your copy/paste,

    Answer every question truthfully, and you will come to the same conclusion.


    Very, very few here are suggesting that LENR

    can’t/won’t/isn’t/never gonna happen, there is a preponderance of experimental data that SUGGESTS otherwise and it would be not be wise to dismiss it out of hand.


    However,

    It is not coming from Rossi.

  • There is too much evidence to deny LENR or cold fusion as a real nuclear reaction......I still maintain that the methodology of speeding up the exceedingly low rate of reaction and its regulatory control still requires discovery. If atom ecology has been successful in this respect post the results here and we'll break out the champagne!

  • At the end of the day all that can be said is.......yes LENR in NiH systems produces a small amount of excess heat/energy....an effect that certain individuals (AR etc) have exaggerated all out of proportion in order to cash in on it.......but the rate of reaction of cold fusion is such that it will probably never be rapid enough to manufacture a viable energy or heat source (or that has yet to be discovered - but may never will be, given the vast amount of time and money spent so far). Our last hope probably rests with the next series of novel experiments in Japan (maybe).

    Vast? When the amount of PUBLIC money reaches 5% of the amount spent on keeping the hot fusion guys with their nuclear bomb backgrounds in the game, then I will agree with your assessment of VAST.


    If there is a chemical effect that produces even small excess heat by putting hydrogen and nickel together in a box then it is worth looking into just for the space travel aspect. But note that there's no CO2 emission, so the enviromentalist crowd should be ecstatic about this technology.

  • I'd agree with Alan here.


    If nuclear reactions in these systems exist at all at the levels claimed, it would be very surprising if this could not be turned into sustainable high energy and power density power sources.


    Where I'd disagree with Alan is his as yet unsubstantiated view that such nuclear reactions do exist. However , if they do, and there is concerted study, it will prove relatively easy to prove. The converse of this is that when some possible such affect is actively studied but resists giving up clear (publishable or equivalent) evidence of unexpected physics, the longer it is so studied, the less chance there is that in fact it is due to unexpected physics - rather than unexpected experimental lacunae.

    That turned out to be somewhat true for High Temperature Superconductors. There really was some effect there, worth studying, but it never has panned out as some earth shattering change that some had expected. The difference is that when a young scientist says that he wants to investigate HTC, he is encouraged and given some crumbs of money. There is no entrenched group of trough feeders who will lose their livelihoods if it turns out that HTC is Really Real. But there IS:a group of entrenched feeders who will lose their position, status, and money if (And there's that big IF word again, it needs to be pointed to--->IF , and repeated.. IF:IF If if) If If LENR turns out to be Really Real.

  • @kevmolenr: Now that it is morning,

    @kevmolenr: Now that it is morning, I looked back to see what you were ranting

    ***Insult

    about with respect to my dodging of your trenchant

    ***Insult




    Since you appear find this plausible,

    ***Got that wrong. Now the impetus is going to have to be how to find a way to answer your post without this dialog getting shunted to Clearance Items. Since you're the one who started in on the insults and continues to rely upon them, then the onus is on you to remove all that snide. I was placed on probation for answering insult with insult, but the original insulters were not put on probation. There is no incentive to answer jaded questions from you.

  • But there IS:a group of entrenched feeders who will lose their position, status, and money if (And there's that big IF word again, it needs to be pointed to--->IF , and repeated.. IF:IF If if) If If LENR turns out to be Really Real.


    Yeah... And now they are fighting tooth and nail all over the net for their "honor" and livelyhood. It's actually entertaining to watch :D

  • Yes, vast in terms of the total amount of literature published on it world-wide......admittedly not as much as has been wasted on hot fusion in keeping our 'top brains' in meaningful employment etc. Wonder what they'd all be doing otherwise? Probably have a colony on Mars by now...........

  • ....

    You misunderstand. Operating without a license is the least of it. If the claim is true, he is operating a completely unknown nuclear reactor

    ***There has been some investigations into this set of nuclear reactions, Rossi has been testing his for a decade, and there's this wonderful library on the web called lenr-canr.org as a result. So it's not 'completely' unknown. Where is the misunderstanding?



    that he knows is dangerous, and that he knows is untested.

    ***He's been testing it for a decade. Other scientists have been testing theirs.


    He is operating it at such high power levels it would be dangerous even if it were a conventional boiler. This is an extraordinarily reckless thing to do. It is stupid.

    ***Yup, he's reckless. Lots of pioneers have that in common, like Madame Curie who died as a result of radioactive exposure. If you read up on Tesla, and note that he was applying X-rays to his brain on a regular basis, you might conclude that he died recklessly as well.



    It is criminal.

    ***If that were true, then that person who dimed him with the authorities would have snagged him in jail by now. He testified under oath in the lawsuit, so there should be plenty of material to deal with.


    An accident would land him in prison.

    ***Lots of industrial accidents happen. Space-x killed a bunch of people when a rocket blew up. Union Carbide killed more Indians than Custer. Assuming that Rossi is the big fraud that so many around here think he is, an accident that only involves him would be a form of justice, would it not?



    Why should he take this risk, when he could easily earn billions of dollars by conducting his business by normal means, following the laws and regulations? It makes no sense.

    ***I don't think he could easily earn billions by "normal" means. He apparently has filed for dozens of patents. That sounds pretty normal to me. And the Patent Office says that he can't have a patent because his invention is impossible. When a Mercurial personality like Rossi gets that kind of treatment, his paranoia and strangeness push him into abnormal means of generating profit.




    This is not nitpicking.

    ***Sure it is.


    We are saying that if the claims are true, he could easily make billions

    ***Not so easy. Look at the patents that he's been denied. Look at our favorite example the Wright brothers, who weren't frauds, right? Yet for 5 years they sat on their box of wires & wood and did not demo to anyone who asked, they had a simple question: If we demo it to you, how many airplanes are you gonna buy? The direct result was that their number of demos corresponded exactly to how many airplanes their lookiloo guests were prepared to buy.


    but instead he is inviting catastrophe in a suicidal test that will make trivial sums of money at best.

    ***Yup, he's Mercurial. That's what people say about wealthy eccentric personalities whom normal people would simply call "insufferable bass turds" or worse.




    Andrew Grove said that. He was a genius but many other businessmen disagreed.

    ***And yet it is his book of that title that people buy today, even after he's dead. They don't buy books from those others who disagreed.



    Most of them do not act paranoid. There is no benefit to acting paranoid, and absolutely no benefit to actually being paranoid (not just acting like it).

    ***Andy Groves begged to differ and was Businessman of the Year or something like that. I'm sure his wikipedia page has it.



    If Rossi has what he claims, he should have shown it to IH.

    ***He did, that's why they went in on it with him. But he's such an unsufferable Adam Henry that they tried to separate his technology from him.



    He would have hundreds of millions by now, and billions in a few years.

    ***Or , perhaps IH would have simply taken his technology and worked with someone else, which is pretty much what it looks like they did.


    He told me he wants $100 million and he doesn't care about more money than that. Perhaps he was lying. But at his age, it is not likely he will live long enough to make $130 billion like Bezos, so he might as well settle for $10 billion or so.

    ***I agree.



    If he wants the money he should stop screwing around with preposterous schemes to sell heat at a 20% discount to a handful of Very Stupid People.

    ***Yup, I agree with that as well. But once that paranoia nerve gets tingled, it's very hard to ignore it for Mercurial personalities. Telling guys like that "you SHOULD do this, you should do that" is like waving a red flag in front of a bull.




    He should

    ***Bull...Red Flag


    partner with knowledgeable people and let them disrupt business.

    ***He did. They tried to take his technology away. He doesn't trust such people.


    That is easier than you might think. Read the history of disruptions

    ***I have. And both you & I have been on the same page talking about disruptions in the past.


    and you will see the techniques. Big companies seldom respond to disruption before it is too late to stop it.

    ***A good place to start is the book "Innovator's Dilemma".


    That is why big companies seldom last longer 50 to 100 years. The biggest of the big from the early 20th century are mostly gone. The Pennsylvania Railroad, AT&T, General Motors all went bankrupt after less than a century. Only the names remain. IBM almost went bankrupt in the late 1980s. The coal companies that formerly dominated energy as "King Coal" will soon be bankrupt.

    ***Everyone has a target painted on their back.

  • @kevmolenr: Now that we are clued in that you are a delicate soul who gets very upset over bits of sarcasm and takes them as horrible insults, we will try to stay clear of your tender toes (yes, that is more sarcasm and probably will set you off again crying “unfair!” to the mods.


    So let’s try to understand where you are coming from. Based on the notion that it is not strictly speaking impossible that Rossi’s assorted claims are real, you are saying that pointing out how absurd and unlikely they are is bad form? You like it better if people just regurgitate the nonsense he spews? ECW is designed for that purpose. Why not spend all your time there among like-minded souls? I guess it is because you see yourself as an heroic defender of LENR battling skeptopaths like Jed Rothwell (😅😅😅).

  • @kevmolenr: Now that we are clued in that you are a delicate soul who gets very upset over bits of sarcasm and takes them as horrible insults, we will try to stay clear of your tender toes (yes, that is more sarcasm and probably will set you off again crying “unfair!” to the mods.


    So let’s try to understand where you are coming from. Based on the notion that it is not strictly speaking impossible that Rossi’s assorted claims are real, you are saying that pointing out how absurd and unlikely they are is bad form? You like it better if people just regurgitate the nonsense he spews? ECW is designed for that purpose. Why not spend all your time there among like-minded souls? I guess it is because you see yourself as an heroic defender of LENR battling skeptopaths like Jed Rothwell (😅😅😅).

    Sigh.:rolleyes: There you go again.


    I don't mind insults. What I mind is that MY insults are shunted off elsewhere while skeptopathic insults are allowed to remain. That's because it turns out that the skeptopaths are the ones who are the snowflakes.

  • Since you brought it up; It was a polite: "try" and be civil, and stop beating up on us Mods. Very good way to handle it I thought. Now, leave us alone, and go have some fun like Alan recommended.

    Right here on this thread you've got at least one participant who has downshitfed to insults, but you're not asking them to "try" and be polite, you're sending missives to me. If asking the mods to do their job is "beating them up" then I should probably lower my expectations even further.